44 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

Nope for all the obvious reasons.
In addition to the 9000 machine gun Piranha's.

[Nightbird]

Clan OP

[El Bandito]

Spheroid, on 11 October 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

What's wrong with unequal drop deck tonnage? Why does everything have to be equal? Tonnage along with payout is one potential avenue for promoting dynamic balance in a properly functioning FP. If you insist on static tonnage this will no longer be a variable in future gameplay balancing mechanics.

Cause balancing by tonnage in FP will negatively affect QP, where things are mixed!

And QP is where most players are at.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 11 October 2018 - 06:37 PM, said:

Cause balancing by tonnage in FP will negatively affect QP, where things are mixed!

And QP is where most players are at.

Clan-IS balance in QP is highly irrelevant. In QP, anyone and everyone can bring any mech they want. If someone decides to bring something even less than a lemon, regardless of tech, then so be it.

Seriously, people are overthinking balance.

Edited by Mystere, 11 October 2018 - 07:25 PM.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 11 October 2018 - 07:23 PM, said:

Clan-IS balance in QP is highly irrelevant. In QP, anyone and everyone can bring any mech they want. If someone decides to bring something even less than a lemon, regardless of tech, then so be it.

Seriously, people are overthinking balance.

Au contraire, it is most relevant in QP, since that's where most of the playerbase/paying customers are. If PGI purposely makes Clan mechs stronger than IS mechs then people will stop buying IS mechs, thus costing PGI up to half their potential revenue. Any idiot can see that.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 October 2018 - 08:21 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

While you're at it, remove the nerfs on Clan mechs' skill trees too. Clan vs IS balance shouldn't be affected by progression.

[Moldur]

Balancing for FP over QP and vice versa messes up the other side of the game. They're essentially different games held back by the scenario of the other. This has always been the case.

[Monkey Lover]

Nightbird, on 11 October 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

Clan OP

My atlas ddc can only boat a lrm 50 when Clan can do lrm 80+

Clan op

[El Bandito]

Moldur, on 11 October 2018 - 10:16 PM, said:

Balancing for FP over QP and vice versa messes up the other side of the game. They're essentially different games held back by the scenario of the other. This has always been the case.

Correct. Hence this thread.

[TWIAFU]

El Bandito, on 11 October 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Au contraire, it is most relevant in QP, since that's where most of the playerbase/paying customers are. If PGI purposely makes Clan mechs stronger than IS mechs then people will stop buying IS mechs, thus costing PGI up to half their potential revenue. Any idiot can see that.

Then PGI should just make Clan and IS tech the exact same.

Same heat, same weight, same slots, range, same everything. Clans should not have access to weapons that IS does not. Second thought, scratch that. New weapon systems should be there and available to both sides of the Invasion. Just have to be big, heavy, and no real advantages.

The ONLY difference tween the tech bases should be HUD and Laser Color.

Bingo, balance. We will be playing a BattleTech type game and BattleTech only IN name.

Boring AF and not a game I am willing to play

[Novakaine]

El Bandito, on 11 October 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Au contraire, it is most relevant in QP, since that's where most of the playerbase/paying customers are. If PGI purposely makes Clan mechs stronger than IS mechs then people will stop buying IS mechs, thus costing PGI up to half their potential revenue. Any idiot can see that.

C'mon man.
You know full well Clanker mechs outclass Spheriods ton for ton.
Is there parity in some classes?
Yes.
But for the most part they don't
PGI said so themselves.

[El Bandito]

TWIAFU, on 12 October 2018 - 04:25 AM, said:

Then PGI should just make Clan and IS tech the exact same.

Same heat, same weight, same slots, range, same everything. Clans should not have access to weapons that IS does not. Second thought, scratch that. New weapon systems should be there and available to both sides of the Invasion. Just have to be big, heavy, and no real advantages.

The ONLY difference tween the tech bases should be HUD and Laser Color.

Bingo, balance. We will be playing a BattleTech type game and BattleTech only IN name.

Boring AF and not a game I am willing to play

I dunno why people are such unimaginative when it comes to asymmetrical balance. It can be done with equal tonnage, provided the game is run by people with some brains.

Novakaine, on 12 October 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

C'mon man.
You know full well Clanker mechs outclass Spheriods ton for ton.
Is there parity in some classes?
Yes.
But for the most part they don't
PGI said so themselves.

Clan mechs clearly outclassing IS ones will only hurt PGI's earnings from mechpacks. If they are so stupid as to not notice the simple logic, then what else can I say?

Edited by El Bandito, 12 October 2018 - 04:50 AM.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 11 October 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Au contraire, it is most relevant in QP, since that's where most of the playerbase/paying customers are. If PGI purposely makes Clan mechs stronger than IS mechs then people will stop buying IS mechs, thus costing PGI up to half their potential revenue. Any idiot can see that.

QP is "anything goes" and Mechs are nothing but digital products. PGI will not be missing much revenue, especially given the amount of "collect it all" whales hanging around.

Now, 8x8, that will be a real revenue killer.

[Mystere]

TWIAFU, on 12 October 2018 - 04:25 AM, said:

Then PGI should just make Clan and IS tech the exact same MWO a generic "Rock 'Em, Sock ;Em" robot game.

FTFY.

TWIAFU, on 12 October 2018 - 04:25 AM, said:

The ONLY difference tween the tech bases should be HUD and Laser Color.

Hey! Don't forget sound effects!

TWIAFU, on 12 October 2018 - 04:25 AM, said:

Boring AF

Agreed!

Edited by Mystere, 12 October 2018 - 11:11 AM.

[Rick T Dangerous]

Even 240 T for both sides. Would be time for that. Only problem: PGI's "analyzing and studying game data" is nothing more than a quick look at how that thing with the colored dots has changed.

[Tiewolf]

Eisenhorne, on 11 October 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

This was suggested in the FP Suggestions thread, but I don't think PGI is in favor of it. I play with a premade group in FP a lot, and if we knew as a fact that our enemy wasn't another premade, we'd be glad to ton down for increased rewards. The problem is, if we decide to go seriously under tonned and end up against a 12 man of KCOM or something on the other side, we're fighting an uphill battle we would never have chosen to fight. They'd need to have some kind of indicator with "expected resistance" maybe. Like, it could take the average win/loss rate of each player on a team, and if one team has a significantly higher win rate, display a message to the higher rated team like, "Light enemy resistance expected", and to the lower rated team like, "Elite enemy presence detected". That way we'd know if we can ton down to risk going into a fight outgunned for higher pay.

Like I said though, PGI basically said no dice to that IIRC.

if you knew your opposition then there is no real risk and the system wouldn't work. Why do you think that kcom would drop with full tonnage if the rewards are slim?

[Eisenhorne]

Tiewolf, on 12 October 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

if you knew your opposition then there is no real risk and the system wouldn't work. Why do you think that kcom would drop with full tonnage if the rewards are slim?

Because some teams are more focused on winning than the rewards of winning.

[Tiewolf]

VonBruinwald, on 11 October 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

Until another Turk. at which point clans stack the tonnage and win... again...

Why would they win when they get no progress for the event when they drop with full tonnage? Clans would have to bid lower then IS to get the same rewards or significant lower to get more but take a higher risk to lose to the IS side.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 12 October 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

QP is "anything goes" and Mechs are nothing but digital products. PGI will not be missing much revenue, especially given the amount of "collect it all" whales hanging around.

Now, 8x8, that will be a real revenue killer.

Lets agree to disagree.

Tiewolf, on 12 October 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

if you knew your opposition then there is no real risk and the system wouldn't work. Why do you think that kcom would drop with full tonnage if the rewards are slim?

E-peenwarrior, online. We got some incredible tryhards in FP.

[Scyther]

It's a bad idea, primarily because it assumes "set tonnage equal, then balance Clan vs IS to be a fair fight".

This isn't even a PGI issue. This is a BattleTech IP issue. Clan tech is better, Clan mechs were introduced later in the game and were purposely given better and more deadly design layouts and equipment. You can't ton-for-ton balance Clan and IS and still remain BattleTech.

Quirks were a possible approach... until PGI showed that they can't balance with quirks because they have no clue how the quirks they assign will perform in combat. Mechs with quirks tend to be OP, UP, or just head-scratchingly 'WTF?' but there have been very few examples of 'Yes, the quirks make this mech properly balanced against a similar tonnage Clan mech'.

We also have the issue of "if you make everything the same, there is no reason to play anything but the single most meta builds".

QP balance isn't really an issue, IMO. Both teams are mixed tech, and you get nascar fights, brawl fights, LRM fights, light raiders, hot maps, cold maps... I've never really been bothered by the tech difference in QP. My IS mechs do fine and my Clan mechs do fine (by my own low standards). I just play differently depending on what I am in.

I can see how it could be an issue in GP but that isn't a significant part of the game anymore, it seems.

Clans need to have a different style and feel from IS. The IP gives them weight and size advantages that you can't just brush away and say "make this ton for ton equal". In BattleTech, the difference was made up by plot armor, batchall, and 'home ground/supply line' type issues. In a PvP shooter, PGI needs to get creative to find different balancing mechanisms.

Unfortunately, despite many many player suggestions over the years (most of which were unworkable, but some very good ones were made), PGI has shown that they are either unwilling or incapable of implementing any significant FP changes beyond "we managed to break it more, and/or we made some big changes that had no effect at all".

Forget Clan/IS balance. Forget tonnage. Change the thread title to "PGI please use the money we send you to hire one(1) Decent Programmer and one(1) Game System Design professional who can actually get something done in less than 3 weeks per minor tweak", and you'll be on to something.