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Patch Notes - 1.4.185.0 - 16-Oct-2018


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#261 Y E O N N E

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 07:45 PM

View PostSereglach, on 14 October 2018 - 07:30 PM, said:

The point here is that PGI had something on PTS that did everything PGI and the Community wanted, it fully met all objectives of the PTS series, and PGI refuses to use it. Rather than tune for outliers they just threw PTS 2.1 out.


Correction: PTS 2.1 objectively met almost none of the original PTS objectives. It did not reduce alpha sizes, only marginally reduced maximum frequency (while increasing average frequency). It did not reduce the gap between Clan and IS laser vomit at all in either alpha size or sustainability, and that was an expressly called out objective.

The new patch also fails to accomplish those objectives except with the changes to the lasers. Since that was the solution they settled on, I am left puzzled as to the entire reason for changing the heat system. Seems a bit like trying to hammer a nail in with a back-hoe.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 14 October 2018 - 07:46 PM.


#262 KS Highlander

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 07:47 PM

So, this month's mech is a Clan laser boat. But Clan lasers are being nerfed? Good sales pitch.

#263 Sereglach

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 08:19 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 14 October 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

Correction: PTS 2.1 objectively met almost none of the original PTS objectives. It did not reduce alpha sizes, only marginally reduced maximum frequency (while increasing average frequency). It did not reduce the gap between Clan and IS laser vomit at all in either alpha size or sustainability, and that was an expressly called out objective.

The new patch also fails to accomplish those objectives except with the changes to the lasers. Since that was the solution they settled on, I am left puzzled as to the entire reason for changing the heat system. Seems a bit like trying to hammer a nail in with a back-hoe.

I didn't say that 2.1 objectively met all of their design goals flawlessly. I only said that PTS 2.1 was met with objectively overwhelming positive feedback and it did fully cover all of the PTS objectives.

It's worth noting that the hard caps of 40 and 45 heat, of PTS 2.0/2.1, did absolutely reduce maximum potential Alpha size before shutdown/overheat. In fact the only real complaint in PTS 2.0 was that a lot of staple builds couldn't Alpha without shutdown. That's why they increased capacity to 45 heat in PTS 2.1, to accommodate those builds at least one non-shutdown Alpha from zero heat. As a side effect, increasing dissipation did increase the frequency of the "average" Alpha, but negative feedback towards that was minimal. Certainly some outlying weapons needed tuning; and it looks like PGI is going to do that tuning. However they should have stuck to tuning outlying weapons instead of retaining heatsink capacity.

Now, as for the gap between IS and Clan weapons in PTS 2.1, that was actually met in that PTS. Here's how: Clan weapons are -generally- hotter, while doing more damage. With both IS and Clans having the same heat cap, and retaining current Ghost Heat limits, Clans were more restricted in their alphas (biggest reason for the bump from 40 to 45 heat cap between PTS 2.0 and 2.1). Generally speaking both sides were limited to whatever Alpha could be pumped out for ~50 heat (after skill tree); and while Clans retained an edge there, it wasn't as lopsided as it is.

However, the sustainability department was never a listed design objective, sadly. Clans could inherently pump out more DPS due to their ability to equip more heat sinks on most builds. That was a reason for one of the few desired changes, from the community, of PTS 2.1: give IS 2.2-2.3 dissipation and Clans 2.0 dissipation on their DHS, but I can't say that there was any overwhelming majority demanding that. Unfortunately, PGI just decided to give everyone 2.2 DHS dissipation and call it a day.

On the other hand, this patch still gives enough capacity that the "average" Alpha is still going to be potentially a lot higher than it was in PTS 2.1 AND it's going to be able to be done even more often with DHS cooling at 2.2. Why PGI decided to go this route seems beyond comprehension given the results of PTS 2.1.

Regardless, even if you think that 2.1 didn't meet their PTS objectives, this patch does a significantly worse job of trying to achieve any of their design goals.

Edited by Sereglach, 14 October 2018 - 08:21 PM.


#264 blackchip13

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 10:03 PM

Please make sure to show the ‘Mechs exploding when they are alpha striking in the next mech pack promotional art.

#265 Nightnovaa

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 10:24 PM

View PostKS Highlander, on 14 October 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

So, this month's mech is a Clan laser boat. But Clan lasers are being nerfed? Good sales pitch.

I feel like we've been down this road before...


Any rate thanks pgi, canceling that preoder for the warhammer I thought you were just going to ignore the whole nerf clan lasers AGAIN thing like energy draw and I accidentally ordered some mechs man am I glad you proved me wrong again saving me money like that, now I can put that money towards a game that isn't biased -_-

you want balance just allow mix tech already and get rid of your mech weapon quirks

#266 ZortPointNarf

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 11:46 PM

The heat changes feel rushed, in particular the impact on the skill tree. We spend CBills on those, and not the have those properly mapped out feels a bit half arsed to me.
I am quite keen for the changes as I do think in conjunction with the minor adjustments to heat on some weapons they should stave off the 2 click delete builds a bit.
Very happy about the mobility tweaks for the light support mechs.
Flamers may get interesting.

I would be very happy to see fortnightly balance updates, so that changes can be made more frequently and the knee-jerk reaction to any change is reduced by there being the potential of it being changed in two weeks.

All and all a very interesting update, I am quite fond of DPS builds, and this should allow me to play that more often. (if it plays similar to PTS)

#267 Bishop Six

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 01:20 AM

You guys dont get it do you?

Before whining start thinking:

Actually Clanners are getting are buff compared to IS.

Not Heat capacity but Heat dissipation is the new important factor.

It means the more HS you build in your mech, the more you are getting the advantage.

And Clanners can put in their mechs way more HS than IS Mechs.

Did anyone of you Whiners do the math?

Clanner Laser-Vomits will still be one of the mightiest builds, even with a better Heat dissipation than before!

But its ok for me, im not complaining. But so many of you guys are ridiculous: Before thinking you start complaining and whining and it is sad that so many dudes are really enjoying the PGI bashing.

You dishonour yourselfes by not using your brains and actively participating in destroying this game although your are totally wrong.

"Dissipation rate increased to 0.22 (from 0.15)
(A benefit of about 50 %)

Here's the math:

I have a Hellbringer which is a good example:

He contains 19 DHS including engine HS.

Before:
18*0,15= 2,85 Heat Diss.

After:
19*0,22= 4,18 Heat Diss.

19 DHS in Clan mech are 38 Slots

19 DHS in IS are 57 Slots (Rarely possible)

AND NOW LADIES AND GENTLEMEN MAY I PRESENT:

MARAUDER 2C with 26 DHS !!

Before:
26*0,15=3,9 (Not even the amount of NEW Hellbringer Heat Diss.)

After:
26*0,22 = 5,72 -> That was NEVER possible before!! Thats 36 % more heat cooling than in my Battlemaster 1G (19 DHS) with maxed out Cooling!!!

26 Clan DHS are 52 Slots
26 IS HS are 78 Slots! LOLOLOL

Its not the Heat capacity which is important and the factor of a good build, it is the HEAT DISSIPATION. The more HS the more DPS.

Clanners will benefit much!

Maybe you cant use a 84 damage Alpha like before, but it is still a 72 Damage Alpha and you will be possible to fire it more frequently than the 84er which is resulting in way more DPS, so the ideal thing for corner and hill poking which Clanners are loving sooooo much.

And now i stop writing before i use bad words for the whiner dudes here...

Edited by Bishop Six, 15 October 2018 - 01:20 AM.


#268 MurghSharduk

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 02:06 AM

View PostHumble Dexter, on 14 October 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

Although I'm in favor of increasing armor instead of reducing it : No matter which side you're on, it's annoying to have your fresh mech die to ~2 pinpoint laser alphas to your center torso...


Alphas are minor irritation compared to Clan supermissiles.

I am really pissed about Annihilator and Fafnir nerfs. They are totally helpless in LRM infested antifunmaps like Polaris, and as really slow gigantic targets on which everybody focuses, they would even need some more armor. Or at least a hefty AMS-buff.

This stupid nerf must be something Solaris-spawned evilness.

#269 Ninjah

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 03:02 AM

Ahem...

I don't care about the balance jerking except is costs people millions of Cbills and SP to fix their let's say about 50 builds they use in FP and elsewhere. That alone is enough to tell PGI to go F themselves especially when it happens several times in one year. There should be a 100 million cbills compensation (+ a few thousand SP) for it and I'm not even counting events in it. I couldn't give a damn about a few % up or down. It won't change anything. There are so many irritating issues that plague the game and they don't get fixed for years. Creating illusion of something being done just to avoid putting any actual work into polishing and optimizing the game is a trademark of PGI and it's quite annoying. Also releasing an incomplete patch is so amateurish that I'm stunned. Please fix the following (YES IT INVOLVES REAL WORK) and I might reconsider quitting.

1. Terrain hitboxes

2. SRM hit detection + general hit detection

3. Ugly half-baked maps

4. Crap shading on mechs, especially IS mechs

5. Ugly graphics

6. Game optimization

7. Chat bugs

8. Mechlab bugs

9. Decal and shadow bugs

10. Return FP to where it was 2 years ago

#270 Kmieciu

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 03:02 AM

View PostBishop Six, on 15 October 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:


"Dissipation rate increased to 0.22 (from 0.15)
(A benefit of about 50 %)

Clanners will benefit much!



The DPS buff is going to be massive across the board!

Finally you'll be able to use sub-250 engines with no cooling penalty. That is a great change for every energy and missile based light mech!

As for me, I'm gonna take a 6 ERML 30 DHS Hellbringer and put those lasers on auto-fire throughout the match!

Edited by Kmieciu, 15 October 2018 - 03:03 AM.


#271 Peter2k

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 04:11 AM

View PostKmieciu, on 15 October 2018 - 03:02 AM, said:


The DPS buff is going to be massive across the board!

Finally you'll be able to use sub-250 engines with no cooling penalty. That is a great change for every energy and missile based light mech;


While that is certainly true, I wonder if they take the 10 heat sink requirement out as well

#272 GweNTLeR

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 04:21 AM

View PostBishop Six, on 15 October 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

You guys dont get it do you?
Math stuff and other stuff

That is cool, but
1) it is a general buff, so both ballisics and missiles get increase in sustained dps, meaning spamming RACs, Ultras, LRMs and ATMs become more efficient;(especially missiles thanks to ecm nerf and specific missiles buff), hence DPS of those weapons likely to increase a lot too.
2) Reduction in maximum frequency of shots (which is likely to happen in hot vomit/ppc) without overheating might sound minor nerf, but in reality it also means that laser vomit/ppc (in GENERAL, not just clans) would suffer much more problems fighting with a rushing enemy(like assasins/cyclors/MC II rush).
For clans it is just a bit hardened with specific laser nerfs. That might be not really a very big issue because there are some other options, but will surely break some playstyles and mechs (like my 2HLL 1ERML 4MPL EXE-A).
3) Increase of DPS would likely break FW siege and incursion, since objective rush would be even easier thx to 1) and 2)
(Yeye, I know that many of MWO pilots think that FW is broken anyway, but thats not entirely true, at least right now)
4) 1) would likely lead to much more lurm/atm/streak boats in all the gamemodes. Even if it requires LOS, a buff is a buff and would increase efficiency anyways.
Personally I would be mostly OK with this patch if not missile boost and ECM nerf.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 15 October 2018 - 06:18 AM.


#273 Peter2k

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 04:22 AM


View PostBishop Six, on 15 October 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

snip...


Yes, but how does that limit alphas?
I thought that's the design goal PGI is chasing?

Because from where I'm standing i don't need to spend as much time cooling off between alphas after the patch, with all weapons; Clan and IS.

I would also be fine without any balance changes for the next year or so, as long as they would focus on fixing bugs, getting rid of leftover UI stuff and optimize; maybe even polish MWO.


Any news on those "quick" FP changes?
That promise got me back into playing MWO for a while, not balance woes.

Edited by Peter2k, 15 October 2018 - 04:24 AM.


#274 DeadWeight18

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 04:36 AM

Life is change.

So give it a try,adapt to the new setting and see how we leverage it for our own sake. :)

#275 Bishop Six

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 05:01 AM

View PostGweNTLeR, on 15 October 2018 - 04:21 AM, said:

That is cool, but
1) it is a general buff, so both ballisics and missiles get increase in sustained dps, meaning spamming RACs, Ultras, LRMs and ATMs become more efficient;(especially missiles thanks to ecm nerf and specific missiles buff), hence DPS of those weapons likely to increase a lot too.
2) Reduction in maximum frequency of shots (which is likely to happen in hot vomit) without overheating might sound minor nerf, but in reality it also means that laser vomit (in GENERAL, not just clans) would suffer much more problems fighting with a rushing enemy(like assasins/cyclors/MC II rush).
For clans it is just a bit hardened with specific laser nerfs. That might be not really a very big issue because there are some other options, but will surely break some playstyles and mechs (like my 2HLL 1ERML 4MPL EXE-A).
3) Increase of DPS would likely break FW siege and incursion, since objective rush would be even easier thx to 1) and 2)
(Yeye, I know that many of MWO pilots think that FW is broken anyway, but thats not entirely true, at least right now)
4) 1) would likely lead to much more lurm/atm/streak boats in all the gamemodes. Even if it requires LOS, a buff is a buff and would increase efficiency anyways.
Personally I would be mostly OK with this patch if not missile boost and ECM nerf.


Your points are possibly right, but you arent complaining and whining like some others here in this Thread, so everthing's fine.

There will be changes of game and battle mechanics, but the major opinion to this patch notes are not true like i showed with a little bit math.

Yes we have to change some builds, but also we have new possibilities which is good. I think about my Commando without 10-Heat-Sink-penalty. 3 tons more in a 25 ton mech is just great. So i hope that lights can be more useful in future and for sure i want bug fixes as well.


View PostPeter2k, on 15 October 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:

Yes, but how does that limit alphas?
I thought that's the design goal PGI is chasing?

Because from where I'm standing i don't need to spend as much time cooling off between alphas after the patch, with all weapons; Clan and IS.

I would also be fine without any balance changes for the next year or so, as long as they would focus on fixing bugs, getting rid of leftover UI stuff and optimize; maybe even polish MWO.


Any news on those "quick" FP changes?
That promise got me back into playing MWO for a while, not balance woes.


It limits Alphas because the lower Heat capacity, but it increases DPS over time.

Yes, i am waiting for FP improvements as well, also for fixing bugs like Group Leaving crash and so on.

But specificially in this Thread the people were talkling about "Nerfs of Clanners and/or Lasers", which isn`t true.

The mood in this Thread is like "jump on the PGI-bashing-train". That's not entirely fair imo, although there are points for criticism.

Edited by Bishop Six, 15 October 2018 - 05:02 AM.


#276 Bwah Ha Ha

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 05:32 AM

View PostGojira1308, on 14 October 2018 - 11:34 AM, said:

Posted Image

So Never? Cool. Just killed any use for the Pirates Bane, Commando and Raven.


Don't forget the Atlas and the reward Warhammer!

#277 blackchip13

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 06:47 AM

Just when you thought PGi couldn’t find a way to break the heat system even more....

Could have just made heavy laser durations longer and tell the laser vomit crybabys to L2torsotwist.

#278 Daurock

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 07:20 AM

View Postblackchip13, on 15 October 2018 - 06:47 AM, said:

Just when you thought PGi couldn’t find a way to break the heat system even more....

Could have just made heavy laser durations longer and tell the laser vomit crybabys to L2torsotwist.


They tried that. They even put a pretty nice post together explaining why that didn't work . Specifically, when they pushed out the durations of clan lasers further, it inordinately hurt the small end of the scale. Clan lights and mediums got the shaft, and heavies and assaults barely noticed the nerf.

As for the big heat system change - In practical terms, it is nearly an across the board buff. Here's the breakdown on how long you have to shut yourself down before the "new" DHS are working in your favor -


DHS - New Diss. - New Cap - Old Diss. - Old Cap - Cap diff. - Diss. diff. - Time to break even (Seconds)

10 --- 2.20 -------- 50.0 --------- 2.00 ------- 50.0 ------- 0.00 ------ 0.20 ----------- 0.00

12 --- 2.64 --------- 51.0 --------- 2.30 ------- 53.0 ------- 2.00 ------ 0.34 ---------- 5.88

14 --- 3.08 --------- 52.0 --------- 2.60 ------- 56.0 ------- 4.00 ------ 0.48 ----------- 8.33

16 --- 3.52 --------- 53.0 --------- 2.90 ------- 59.0 ------- 6.00 ------ 0.62 ----------- 9.68

18 --- 3.96 --------- 54.0 --------- 3.20 ------- 62.0 ------- 8.00 ------ 0.76 ----------- 10.53

20 --- 4.40 --------- 55.0 --------- 3.50 ------- 65.0 ------- 10.00 ----- 0.90 ----------- 11.11

22 --- 4.84 --------- 56.0 --------- 3.80 ------- 68.0 ------- 12.00 ----- 1.04 ----------- 11.54

24 --- 5.28 --------- 57.0 --------- 4.10 ------- 71.0 ------- 14.00 ----- 1.18 ----------- 11.86

26 --- 5.71 --------- 58.0 --------- 4.40 ------- 74.0 ------- 16.00 ----- 1.32 ----------- 12.12

28 --- 6.10 --------- 59.0 --------- 4.70 ------- 77.0 ------- 18.00 ----- 1.46 ----------- 12.33

30 --- 6.60 --------- 60.0 --------- 5.00 ------- 80.0 ------- 20.00 ------ 1.60 ---------- 12.50

To put it in practical terms - assuming you currently can't shut yourself down with 2 back-to-back alphas, you're almost certainly going to come out ahead with the new changes, full stop. (It only takes about 6-12 seconds for most mechs before the "extra" cooling provided by the new heatsinks overcomes the cap difference) For those mechs that can do that, (A few pure vomits, and some PPC builds, mostly) It will become a little more mixed, but still probably an overall buff. Because of the way engine sinks now are no more powerful than standard sinks, they may even pickup a little bit of power in a protracted engagement, particularly for the pulse lasers. (The more sinks you have, the bigger your dissipation "Buff" got, both in absolute terms (heat/Sec) and Percentage wise.)

I can't say i'm a huge fan of making the game faster, but it isn't going to nuke any builds.

As for the rest of the stuff - the laser changes were long overdue also, imo. (Including the CMPL, which overshadows the IS MPL just as strongly as the other clan lasers do, due to its far more useful range.) I still think Clan lasers will be dramatically better, but it's a step in the right direction of evening out clanVomit vs isVomit. I'm playing a wait and see game with the missile and armor changes, but in all honesty, I doubt they're going to be game-breaking. Still waiting to see if they do anything to the C-Gauss, and will be paying particular attention to clan Dakka, to see these changes put them over the top, since the beefiest IS assaults won't be as comfortable to Face-Tank in as before.

Edit - Forgot to add in a bit about the new Ghost heat limit perks - Judging by the mechs they're putting that particular quirk on, they're it appears they plan on keeping it a pretty rare, very valuable quirk, found on mostly otherwise terrible mechs. I actually approve of this plan, as it's something that if found on an otherwise decent mech, could create an OP mech pretty quickly.

Edited by Daurock, 15 October 2018 - 08:41 AM.


#279 Magnus Santini

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 01:44 PM

View PostKill2Blit, on 15 October 2018 - 06:56 AM, said:


. . . Uniform heat sink behavior will make lights no longer need dissipation quirks though.. . .


How do you figure that? Try running into the middle of the enemies with 3 MPLs and tell me you don't need protection against overheating.

#280 MechaBattler

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 02:06 PM

The current heat dissipation quirks weren't intended to be a buff to lights or medium, instead intended to correct a mechanic that gimped the dissipation of mechs with sub 250 engine cap, because external heatsinks have less dissipation. But the new changes will make internal and external the same. There by making the dissipation quirk unnecessary.

If you want a blanket buff to light dissipation. That's a different story.





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