16 replies to this topic

[canned wolf]

I was thinking about all the discussions about jump sniping and came up with a solution that I think would work well in game.

Jumping 30 tons of non-aerodynamic steel should be hard. The pilot should be required to make constant corrections while in the air to avoid auguring in head first. This alone could keep jump sniping to a minimum and also add some realism to the game which has always been missing in the past.

Jump jet representations in past games have always bugged me. Living Legends does alright, but the lack of falling damage is an issue for me. Jumping a mech should be terrifying for the uninitiated. Like riding a crotch rocket or flying a helicopter, an activity that is dangerous in the best conditions and close to suicidal during battle. Make the recoil from heavy weapons fire translate to rotational velocity that has to be manually corrected for with thrusters. Same with hits taken while in the process of jumping.

[Foxfire]

While there should be an element in skill involved in jumping, one element you seem to not be accounting for is the neurohelmet and gyros.

[verybad]

I'm of two minds about this.

I would like Jumpsniping to still be possible, though perhaps a bit mroe difficult than in MW4. It's a tactic that makes sense, and if it's more difficult, can be a lot of fun to succeed at.

I'm thinking that Gyro use could be brought under the players control. So you would need o keep your mech's gryo within a circle or it might fall down, taking damage. Running fast on slippery surfaces, jumpin, and so on would make the Gyro wobble more. Gaining skill as a pilot would mitigate this somewhat, as would gaining skills in a mech class. The more your Gyro gets out of center, the higher amount of rock your mech has, and the longer it takes to get a target.

Centering the Gyro could use the arrow keyopad (or of course be player customizable) Other affecting thigns would be weapon recoil, hitting structures or other mechs, ground surface, weapon hits on the players mech, and damage to the Gyro.

I don't think jumping should should be separated from the rest of movement in this area, just be a more extreme affext on the Gyro.

So if your'e a skilled pilot that has spent skill points on Jump Piloting, driving a mech you've also leveled in, then you might be able to jump snipe...with some risk. If you're in a brand new mech, you can still fire at targets while jumping, but you've also got a very good chance of falling down, and a poor chance of hitting.

So this would make jump sniping possible, but it would be a tactic you need to develop your mechwarrior towards, while keeping the same mech over a period of time, and still not an easy tactic.

Limited it's very fun. I do agree that in MW4 it was a bit OP. Make it a rare, but potentially effective tactic, and you've got a winner

Edited by verybad, 22 December 2011 - 03:35 PM.

[UncleKulikov]

Jumping should make it ridiculously hard to aim, due to the varying stresses and physics interactions.

Taking Tabletop as a model, jumping made it twice as difficult to hit the target, at least.

For the jumpshot to work, it should be at the peak of the arc when there is the least amount of force messing with the targeting. But it's also when you are the most vulnerable, since the mech is in hang time. But other than that time, it should be really difficult to hit.

[verybad]

Definately more difficult, and only reasonably effective when you train your Mechwarriors skills in a way that would help that.

It's fun in MW4, it's just too easy, so don't kill it, just as mentioned make it more difficult.

A bit of rock from jumpjets being active, along with Gyro and targeting difficulties and it's fixed.

[Red Beard]

verybad, on 22 December 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

I'm of two minds about this.

I would like Jumpsniping to still be possible, though perhaps a bit mroe difficult than in MW4. It's a tactic that makes sense, and if it's more difficult, can be a lot of fun to succeed at.

I'm thinking that Gyro use could be brought under the players control. So you would need o keep your mech's gryo within a circle or it might fall down, taking damage. Running fast on slippery surfaces, jumpin, and so on would make the Gyro wobble more. Gaining skill as a pilot would mitigate this somewhat, as would gaining skills in a mech class. The more your Gyro gets out of center, the higher amount of rock your mech has, and the longer it takes to get a target.

Centering the Gyro could use the arrow keyopad (or of course be player customizable) Other affecting thigns would be weapon recoil, hitting structures or other mechs, ground surface, weapon hits on the players mech, and damage to the Gyro.

I don't think jumping should should be separated from the rest of movement in this area, just be a more extreme affext on the Gyro.

So if your'e a skilled pilot that has spent skill points on Jump Piloting, driving a mech you've also leveled in, then you might be able to jump snipe...with some risk. If you're in a brand new mech, you can still fire at targets while jumping, but you've also got a very good chance of falling down, and a poor chance of hitting.

So this would make jump sniping possible, but it would be a tactic you need to develop your mechwarrior towards, while keeping the same mech over a period of time, and still not an easy tactic.

Limited it's very fun. I do agree that in MW4 it was a bit OP. Make it a rare, but potentially effective tactic, and you've got a winner

I only show up to these threads to read what verybad has to say.

Are you people taking notes? This dog has his MW down.

[Damocles]

Ditto that, verybad has a great mechanics idea right there.

[Brakkyn]

I felt MechWarrior 4's were too...out there, exaggerated, even "unrealistic". People staying airborne for far too long, light 'Mech or not. Each 'Mech that was jump-capable you simply freed the tonnage and clicked a checkbox. Thankfully, they were good at limiting heavier chassis from jumping across maps, and while lighter chassis couldnt do that, they were more effective jumpers. I recall getting a kick jumping outside the walls on one of the factory maps in an Osiris. DFA was at its peak. But so was lightly jetting up a hillside and reaching a area you should not have been able to reach. Nowhere is inaccesible when you can jet and auto-walk up sheer cliffs.

MechWarrior 3's were alot more "realistic", but also limiting. It was good that the distance you jumped or high you gained was based on the 'Mech's weight and how many jump jets were installed. Two-thirds of DFA was impossible, though, but the act of jumping itself was much better. You might have been able to jump high, but maybe not high enough. Terrain was more of an issue--which it ought to be.

MechWarrior 2 had flying 'Mechs. It's the worst example. At least, though, you took damage if you fell too far, even crippling your 'Mech.

I know it's rather pointless to point this out in a piece of media no longer fully associated with MechWarrior Online, but...

In the 2009 "Phoenix" video, I felt they did jump jets perfectly. Watch the Jenner jump up from behind the building and land. It was simple. Jet up, slightly forward, and land on the roof with a crunch. One of those "ah-ha!" instances when the jumper uses his jets to get the drop on a heavier opponent. It was about maneuver; tactics. It's about accessing the inaccesible. I wonder how that pilot would have gone about getting down from there if the Warhammer hadn't shot the building out from under him.

[TheRulesLawyer]

I'll just leave this quote here....
"As for jump jets, some of the games were terrible at it, turning jump-capable ’Mechs into hover-BattleMechs. Others have been better, but I still don’t think they really captured the ferocity of a 70-ton BattleMech hurtling through the air in a harsh ballistic arc. There should almost be a growl sound as that 70-ton BattleMech hammers up over a hill and down into the ground, unleashing weapons right in your face."

Edited by TheRulesLawyer, 23 December 2011 - 09:33 AM.

[canned wolf]

I forgot about manual gyro inputs, that would make more since than the thruster idea I was thinking of. I totally agree with having a graphical representation of your mech's stability. Keeping the thing balanced is a major function of the nerohelmet, so having that represented in game with a graphic to let you know when you're about to eat dirt would be awesome. The speed should be increased from previous versions too. Fast up, fast down. You should have to have your landing planned before you take off, not jet up then look for a suitable place to put down. And I am in favor of major consequences for botched jumps, not just a little scratched armor. It makes it more rewarding for those who can do it. It also gives the rest of us a chance for vengeance.

Just think, you've been being harassed in your Warhammer by a damn Wasp who keeps executing popup attacks. His accuracy is terrible but damage is starting to stack. After his last jump you quickly reposition rounding the base of the hill he was hiding behind. As he starts his jump to escape you land a PPC hit on his left leg. He loses control of the jump and rockets head first into a office building crushing his sensors and optics and doing major damage to his upper torso and head. You stand over him and let him see the glow from the muzzle of your PPC aimed at his cockpit before you ask him politely if he would care to surrender.

Edited by canned wolf, 23 December 2011 - 11:31 AM.

[Rhinehart]

Here's a question I never thought was properly addressed in previous MW games.

Shouldn't Weapons that have recoil such as autocannons and gauss rifles, or even missile launchers that vent exhaust have some sort of physical effect on an airborne Mech? I would think so but I don't ever remember this being done before. Likewise shouldn't a mech taking hits from these weapons be affect during its jump?

I've never been a good jumping pilot though I used jets sometimes as a desperation move in the MW2 MW 3 iterations. That's how I knew Jetting was too easy in MW4. Even I could do it.

[Dlardrageth]

Rhinehart, on 23 December 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

Here's a question I never thought was properly addressed in previous MW games.

Shouldn't Weapons that have recoil such as autocannons and gauss rifles, or even missile launchers that vent exhaust have some sort of physical effect on an airborne Mech? I would think so but I don't ever remember this being done before. Likewise shouldn't a mech taking hits from these weapons be affect during its jump?

I've never been a good jumping pilot though I used jets sometimes as a desperation move in the MW2 MW 3 iterations. That's how I knew Jetting was too easy in MW4. Even I could do it.

the use of the jump jets to simply move shouldn't be too hard. After all, if the Mech got JJs mounted, it's supposed to use them, right? On the other hand though, actually firing during jumping should be very difficult. Well, at least difficult to hit anything during jumping.

Now the part about being hit during jumping is interesting. Depending on how PGI does implement the actual kinetic effect on hits sustained, it could (depending on what hit you where) lead to a quite spectacular crash landing. Or spin you around in the air? I'm just not really sure what limitations the game engine imposes at that point on the coding doable. In therory you should have a bunch of vector calculations being done to check exact impact results, but adding those to detailed damage modeling and dynamic impact values, jump jet allocation per Mech model and what not... sounds quite complicated to do halfway realistically/accurate.

But yeah, we definitely need something else than what MW4 had to offer in terms of jumping mechanics. That was just... meh.

[CeeKay Boques]

What if jump jetting also drained your reactor to the point where weapons were almost shut down or decreased in power, to make jumping more of a movement thing than firing?. I would very much miss the lateral behind the back no look lbx swish, but perfect jump up, apex fire has got to go, we all know that.

[Xhaleon]

You know, it would be really rather odd for mechs that are specifically meant to jump and fire with pulse lasers, be completely prevented from doing so, or at least saddled with so much problems that they effectively can't do it.

I'd much rather that those people who invest in jump jets can still make shots at a penalty, but not too much to be impractical. Then, make sure that mechs that get shot in the air be very vulnerable to going out of control. They can only stay in the air with jets pointing down, after all. Plus, the collision physics could tie in nicely to melee combat.

[CeeKay Boques]

Xhaleon, on 24 December 2011 - 02:38 AM, said:

You know, it would be really rather odd for mechs that are specifically meant to jump and fire with pulse lasers, be completely prevented from doing so, or at least saddled with so much problems that they effectively can't do it.

I'd much rather that those people who invest in jump jets can still make shots at a penalty, but not too much to be impractical. Then, make sure that mechs that get shot in the air be very vulnerable to going out of control. They can only stay in the air with jets pointing down, after all. Plus, the collision physics could tie in nicely to melee combat.

I like this idea so much better, Black Knight jumps straight up, takes a gauss to the face, and suddenly you see Mech Feet where the head used to be. A side jumping shadowcat gets hit in the leg, and tumbles off like Darth Vader getting knicked in the death star scene. That's a great solution. Let jumping be a risk to the jumper, rather than nerfing them. Oh you fell on your side? Sorry that your gauss arm snapped off....

[Dlardrageth]

Sure needs some hefty balancing to make sure that JJs do not become a must-have (again) and that on the other hand it remains still a somewhat viable option to use weapons (albeit with lower efficiency) in jump. Needs to accomodate both sides of the coin, a reason to mount JJs, and also a reason to use a Mech without those. If one of those two alternatives becomes obsolete, the balancing is off.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 25 December 2011 - 07:47 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I feel that using JJ's should be more difficult to use as mech's get heavier. Yes assault's (Highlander ) can jump. Just not very far or so easily. Any mech in flight is going to be a target. Certain mechs have specialised targetting computers (Rifleman, Jagermechech etc) that mean they can hit airborne targets much better than others (plus arms elevate more quickly etc). Means if you know that the company your fighting likes jumpers you can bring along a counter.