4 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

To get some background, I was watching this clip from Patlabor



First of all, it's remarkable how forward thinking the anime creators are. The GUI imagined is pretty much standard of what we use now. But remember in 1993, that was not the norm. Also, the control basis for the arms will not be depicted until I remember a Batman Beyond episode where a villain basically controlled a contructobot with the same parallel mimic movement.

Anyways, I want to draw attention to the pedal. My last fictional reality on mech control, the thread discussed how a real mech cockpit would look like. It's a standard acceleration/break pedals found in most cars. Contrast that with the arms control which is a direct parallel mimicry of the hand movement, and it sort of makes sense. You don't want to tire out your pilot by having to literally take a stomp on every... well... stomp.

Your machine's capability cannot be limited by a pilot's physical capabilities.

So fingers and such are highly dexterous function, but in the above scenario, say someone with a slower hand speed is going against a Billy the Kid reborn. He would be slaughtered, right? So honestly, unlike how we adjust mouse setting now, hardware acceleration isn't necessary a bad thing. It should surpass our own physical capability with the limitation on how fast can the machine itself perform these movements.

Anyways, I just thought this would be an interesting discussion of speed vs precision in robot piloting. In construction, I think it's more important to have precision, after all, how fast you can build your foundation is meaningless if they are all crooked. Versus in military, you probably need to find ways to train your cross-hair much faster than the other person. So perhaps in mech piloting, maybe some of the mech hand dexterity should be sacrificed for a more traditional joystick control. (or perhaps some sort of combo system?!?)

I actually love to see these design elements incorporate into game plays. Let's say this is not fictional reality, but reality reality. Different factions and manufacturers would engineer different mechs based on different control scheme right? Since it's debatable whether one scheme would be favorable in some situations over others. Imagine if the gameplay incorporate that and say a mech like an archer with the arms and fingers pilot different than an EBJ with just gun for forearms. That would bring so much diversity to gameplay, and you would get dedicated or specialized pilots based on control schemes that they are comfortable with.

(of course, have to be simulated somehow using just mouse and keyboards... but yea...)

[Robert Skera]

Control speed depends on the size of the mech. There are upper bounds to the speed you can move an arm or leg through mechanical means. The larger the mech, the slower the movements because of mass and inertia.

Pedals would likely be used for torso movement with forward and backward movement on a hand throttle of some kind. There is no need for dexterity of the pilot to be mimicked by the mech. We have bipedal bots now that can navigate rough terrain with onboard mapping hardware. A mech would largely be point and go as far as "driving" is concerned.

Arms and hands would be where the control could differ. Handed mechs could have haptic feedback motion tracking gloves. Mech's with mobile arms but no hands could use controls similar to current waldo tech. Another possibility would be joysticks on rails, think Big-O. Mechs without arms would likely use the accepted "aircraft" system with a stick.

The control schemas would likely end up reduced to as few configurations as possible, to simplify training. Big robots are useless if nobody can pilot them.

[Sable Dove]

To be honest, the arms should just be linked to head-tracking so the pilot just looks where they want to shoot and the arms move to target that. Manual control would be more for precise adjustments and melee/non-combat arm actions like grabbing objects.

With the controls available in the current cockpits, it should be throttle for throttle (obviously), joystick for torso movement, and head-tracking for arm movement with available manual override.

[LordNothing]

i already use pedals to control my mech. though only for turning (throttle sets the speed). i imagine some kind of center rocker or slide pedals which control the stride length of the legs, each pedal is essentially a throttle for each leg and can operate independently, both in forward and reverse. differential control allows for turning. its not controlling the legs directly, the computer does that for you and keeps them in sync. you might have an independant step frequency control, equivalent to a gear shift in a car. in some cases you might want longer strides at reduced speed or faster shorter strides to optimize for terrain. this is a secondary control not meant to be operated in such a hands on manor. you want your hands free to control arms and/or weapons and its probably something you might delegate to the computer during combat.

i like the rotational ankle control as well which might provide better turning. the pedals would probibly want some kind of tactile feedback, to sense ground pressure and relay that info to the pilot. probably just an array of solenoids or vibration motors in the pedals that the pilot can sense through his feet. it would be important for the pilot to know what leg is currently load bearing or in contact with the ground or even relay information about the ground itself (like is it soft or prone to shifting).

anyway whoever animated that read a few books on control theory. if only they did that kind of research for modern tv and movies.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 October 2018 - 07:29 AM.

[razenWing]

LordNothing, on 27 October 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

i already use pedals to control my mech. though only for turning (throttle sets the speed). i imagine some kind of center rocker or slide pedals which control the stride length of the legs, each pedal is essentially a throttle for each leg and can operate independently, both in forward and reverse. differential control allows for turning. its not controlling the legs directly, the computer does that for you and keeps them in sync. you might have an independant step frequency control, equivalent to a gear shift in a car. in some cases you might want longer strides at reduced speed or faster shorter strides to optimize for terrain. this is a secondary control not meant to be operated in such a hands on manor. you want your hands free to control arms and/or weapons and its probably something you might delegate to the computer during combat.

i like the rotational ankle control as well which might provide better turning. the pedals would probibly want some kind of tactile feedback, to sense ground pressure and relay that info to the pilot. probably just an array of solenoids or vibration motors in the pedals that the pilot can sense through his feet. it would be important for the pilot to know what leg is currently load bearing or in contact with the ground or even relay information about the ground itself (like is it soft or prone to shifting).

anyway whoever animated that read a few books on control theory. if only they did that kind of research for modern tv and movies.

You will be surprised. Japanese anime/manga artists from the 80s and and early 90s are total mechanical freaks. Their dedications to details are AMAZING. You should have seen artbooks from those time period where it sometimes show cross sectional views of various mechs, the details and level of expertise on what needs to be what is absolutely stunning.

(Keep in mind also that all of these are hand drawn because of technology at the time, not computer animated like now where it's far easier)

I remember anime and manga from those time period all try to showcase a skeleton view of their mechas to create a sort of fictional reality. At some point, people with no real life interest began to emerge as anime/manga artists, where all they know is to make things really really "kawaii." And so, there are no good anime/manga left that feature that kind of sophistication in mecha design and/or research.

(modern mecha anime is just some random mech concept that look shiny and probably have some good looking teenager piloting them, and a lot of face shots of screaming. oh how the once great genre has fallen...) Maybe it reflects a changing attitude of the society too. Back then before the bubble burst, it used to be to buy the best mechanical things, you buy japan. They would setup cool robot assembly lines. That kind of shifted away, and there's a feeling of lethargy coming from modern Japan where scandals of defects kept surfacing where they used to be none. Maybe the whole "moe" era is just a reflection of the modern superficial society.

Anyways I just found the clip interesting because when this was animated (came out in 1993, so probably 92), they were already thinking up tech that we would use today (objective oriented, GUI, modern control schemes).