52 replies to this topic

[Armored Yokai]

An issue that's talked about often, is that XL survivability will render standard and LFE inferior.
I say that's only possible if there's no bonuses to standard and lfe, a good way to prevent this would be to give engine type bonuses like structure and crit chance receiving. An example shown


Standard
------------------
Grants bonus structure health that's distributed evenly to the torsos depending on engine weight, std also negates 10-25% crit and comes with little heat dissipation bonuses

STD 250 gives 10% crit chance negation and bonus 30 structure with 5% heat dissipation
STD 300 15% Crit negation, bonus 45 structure with 10% heat dissipation
STD 400 25% crit negation 60 structure with 25% heat dissipation

Light
------------------
Bonus structure without crit recieving and comes with mobility bonuses

LFE 250 +20 Structure and 5% mobility bonus
LFE 300 +30 Structure and 10% mobility bonus
LFE 400 +40 Structure and 15% mobility bonus

XL
-------------------
Bonus Mobility but no other bonuses and the engine suffers from increased debuffs from torso loss rather than a flat out death
XL 250 15% mobility bonus
XL 300 20% mobility bonus
XL 400 30% mobility bonus

[Asmerak]

I'd be okay with this or something similar so long as it comes with a continuation of the nerfing of blanket IS quirks. Balancing out the tech bases is going to be necessary for inter-factional balance to ever happen, and we're already part of the way there with the differences between weapon systems.

[Armored Yokai]

Asmerak, on 27 October 2018 - 07:50 PM, said:

I'd be okay with this or something similar so long as it comes with a continuation of the nerfing of blanket IS quirks. Balancing out the tech bases is going to be necessary for inter-factional balance to ever happen, and we're already part of the way there with the differences between weapon systems.

and seeing how HGauss is basically a high risk weapon that's not very rewarding unless you have teammates to provide cover fire
STD could use some crit negation bonuses to keep HGauss viable rather than being outpaced by quad lbx10

[Nightbird]

XL is the best of the three engines, no buffs needed.

[Armored Yokai]

Nightbird, on 27 October 2018 - 07:54 PM, said:

XL is the best of the three engines, no buffs needed.

muh torso mounted UAC20!
LFE is the best because less tonnage and no death from torso loss.

[El Bandito]

Both IS and Clan need to have good reasons to equip Std, not just for freeing up a few slots. So yeah any buffs to Std engine is welcome. Same deal with IS LFE and XL since they are strictly inferior than Clan XL.

Asmerak, on 27 October 2018 - 07:50 PM, said:

I'd be okay with this or something similar so long as it comes with a continuation of the nerfing of blanket IS quirks. Balancing out the tech bases is going to be necessary for inter-factional balance to ever happen, and we're already part of the way there with the differences between weapon systems.

I'm 100% behind that. IS quirk crutch should be lessened.

[Dragonporn]

Ideas are good, but too complex for PGI to incorporate at this point IMO. Personally I'm rather fine with how engines work for IS at least. XL has a niche usability with Heavies and maybe some Assaults, while is a must for pretty much any Light. STD is necessary for specific Assault loadouts, and is very welcome for masochists of other weight classes, while LFE is good choice all around. That means all 3 have some usability, while LFE stands out the most. Same with Clans, most mechs pack XL, while some niche usability of other engines still exist, whenever possible that is...

[El Bandito]

Dragonporn, on 27 October 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

Ideas are good, but too complex for PGI to incorporate at this point IMO. Personally I'm rather fine with how engines work for IS at least. XL has a niche usability with Heavies and maybe some Assaults, while is a must for pretty much any Light. STD is necessary for specific Assault loadouts, and is very welcome for masochists of other weight classes, while LFE is good choice all around. That means all 3 have some usability, while LFE stands out the most. Same with Clans, most mechs pack XL, while some niche usability of other engines still exist, whenever possible that is...

Only reason LFE and Std engines are being used in IS is because IS XL is CRAP compared to Clan XL, and IS weapons/DHS/equipment use up tons of slots. You almost never see a Clan Std engine mech. It is a flawed thinking to praise IS engine diversity when all three options have big negatives compared to the clearly superior Clan XL. Since Clanners will cry a river of tears if Clan XL is nerfed, only other option is to buff IS XL, LFE, and both Std engines.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 October 2018 - 12:21 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Partial agreement w/Dragonporn statement that adding structural bonus is likely too complex for PGI, whereas giving isXL same benefit as cXL/LFE when the 1st ST is destroyed with different penalty percentages would be the simplest route to go.

https://mwomercs.com...fit-as-cxl-lfe/

Suggested tuning.

LFE 15% movement penalty - 20% engine heat dissipation penalty
cXL 20% movement penalty - 30% engine heat dissipation penalty
isXL 30% movement penalty - 45% engine heat dissipation penalty

[Dogstar]

Another option is to give STD engines more heat sink slots - 1 per 20 engine rating instead of 1 per 25 engine rating.

This means a STD200 engine would have ten heat sinks and thus would not need additional external heat sinks and a STD300 would have five heat sink spaces for additional heat sinks.

People keep suggesting structure and crit chances but I think that those are entirely pointless, once you're cored out of armour the advantage of a few points of structure will make almost no difference to how quickly you are killed.

However all this is moot because PGI do not listen and will not change - thinking otherwise is extremely foolish

[Jackal Noble]

El Bandito, on 28 October 2018 - 12:16 AM, said:

Since Clanners will cry a river of tears if Clan XL is nerfed

Clan XL was in fact nerfed over a period of nerfs. Clan mechs have the agility of Stephen Hawking driving over the La Brea Tar Pits.

Give IS XL structure, IS LFE mobility, and IS STD Armor. Give Clan STD -Crit Chance Receiving, Clan XL mobility. done.

[Sjorpha]

Jackal Noble, on 28 October 2018 - 03:17 AM, said:

Clan XL was in fact nerfed over a period of nerfs. Clan mechs have the agility of Stephen Hawking driving over the La Brea Tar Pits.

Agility nerfs to specific clan mechs isn't the same as nerfs to cXL, which hasn't been nerfed at all.

The goal should be to make sure the engines themselves are balanced. cXL and IS XL should be balanced so in a hypothetical scenario where you could choose to put either of them in a mech that should be a difficult choice where sometimes one is better and sometimes the other. And that should be true of every piece of analog IS/Clan equipment in the game such as heatsinks, endo/ferro, gauss rifles and so on.

[El Bandito]

Jackal Noble, on 28 October 2018 - 03:17 AM, said:

Clan XL was in fact nerfed over a period of nerfs. Clan mechs have the agility of Stephen Hawking driving over the La Brea Tar Pits.

Give IS XL structure, IS LFE mobility, and IS STD Armor. Give Clan STD -Crit Chance Receiving, Clan XL mobility. done.

False information. Clan XL itself did not get nerfed as much as certain Clan mechs got reduced base mobility for being clearly OP. Two different things. Current Clan XL is THE BEST engine, and anyone who disagrees is detached from reality.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 October 2018 - 03:48 AM.

[LordNothing]

i like the idea of giving std more survivability and xl more mobility with lfe splitting the difference.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 October 2018 - 04:18 AM.

[razenWing]

You... are... kidding... right?

The only thing that needs to be done is to introduce IS Omni mech. Write a separate rule where IS Omni XL functions like IS LFE. Everything else stays the same. Easy peesy.

None of this fancy 20 step workout to lose 5 pounds in 2 weeks. Who cares. Just diet and exercise.

[FupDup]

razenWing, on 28 October 2018 - 05:05 AM, said:

You... are... kidding... right?

The only thing that needs to be done is to introduce IS Omni mech. Write a separate rule where IS Omni XL functions like IS LFE. Everything else stays the same. Easy peesy.

None of this fancy 20 step workout to lose 5 pounds in 2 weeks. Who cares. Just diet and exercise.

Giving IS Omnis special exceptions is a lot more fancy than having IS XLs behave consistently across the board. It's also 100% guaranteed to never happen judging by how PGI handled Clan Battlemech construction rules.

Some sort of IS XL change (mobility, structure/armor, heat efficiency, or whatever) would have the benefit of giving more options across the whole faction rather than just helping a tiny number of specific mechs.

[El Bandito]

razenWing, on 28 October 2018 - 05:05 AM, said:

You... are... kidding... right?

The only thing that needs to be done is to introduce IS Omni mech. Write a separate rule where IS Omni XL functions like IS LFE. Everything else stays the same. Easy peesy.

You seem to have a very different notion of what is easy. Giving engines their separate attributes is not harder than making a completely separate mechanic for IS Omni XL engine.

And even if you make IS Omni XL engine act like IS LFE, it will still be strictly inferior than Clan XL due to its bigger size.

Face it, PGI need to do something to make Clan XL not the best option by a mile, if the whole balance thing is seriously gonna take off. Cause they SUCK at balancing by quirks.

[Agent1190]

Why not change Clan XL engines on Clan Battlemechs (not Omni's, there's no choice there) to mimic IS XL engines? Share the engine pool - STD and XL engines in your inventory can be used by either faction, and both have the same advantages and disadvantages. I mean, if we're willing to break lore for IS XL, why not break lore for Clan XL's mounted in Battlemechs?

If we get IS Omni's (fat chance) that run XLs, we could make them equal to Clan XL Omni's.

[FupDup]

Agent1190, on 28 October 2018 - 07:38 AM, said:

Why not change Clan XL engines on Clan Battlemechs (not Omni's, there's no choice there) to mimic IS XL engines?

Because that would completely wafflestomp most Clan Battlemechs into the ground. IS assaults and most heavies can't viably use the IS XL and they tend to have better agility and/or durability quirks. Clan Battlemechs would fare even worse.

[Agent1190]

El Bandito, on 28 October 2018 - 03:47 AM, said:

False information. Clan XL itself did not get nerfed as much as certain Clan mechs got reduced base mobility for being clearly OP. Two different things. Current Clan XL is THE BEST engine, and anyone who disagrees is detached from reality.

Not nerfed directly, no, but still nerfed.

The nerf applied to Clan mechs running XL engines - reduced mobility and heat management. Put a Standard engine in a Clan Battlemech and you don't suffer the mobility nerf XL equipped clan mechs do.

It's a nerf on the same level as the 6 PPC Stalker when Ghost Heat was introduced. The Stalker itself wasn't nerfed, but the build using that equipment was.