17 replies to this topic

[Cozened Indigo]

To help summarize our discussion on balance and cover the key points we have discussed in our podcast series on balance we have put together a balance document.

We discuss what we covered, the realities for players and PGI concerning balance, and make some recommendations for improving the balance picture.

Check it out here:
https://drive.google...xjF1L6C-6aZt2hk

Remember, MTGA: Make the Timberwolf Great Again!

Edited by Cozened Indigo, 07 November 2018 - 03:36 PM.

[Bud Crue]

You forgot a key aspect regarding what is balance. You note that balance is in part to "influence change to the strategies or behaviors players are engaging in" as well as a few other elements. You left out one very big thing: the need for a currency sink.

After the elimination of the rule of three, it became obvious that "balance" or changes to the performance of elements within the game environment (weapons, mechs, etc.) would not be allowed to remain stable for any length of time. Russ himself held forth on a cast wherein he noted that a key element of the new system would be to maintain a c-bill sink. By changing elements of the game on a near constant basis (only a couple of patches since skill tree's introduction since last May have failed to change (mostly nerf) some weapon or game mechanic) this assures such a sink as folks are forced to reskill and or tweek mechs (with the purchase of new weapons, engines, configurations, etc. to compensate for PGI's change o' the month) in a constant drive to have their mechs and builds retain relevancy in the every shifting meta of PGI's creation.

THAT is part of balance. It is the reality of the game as we have known it for a year and a half, and it will never stop regardless of how or what actual "strategies or behaviors" players are engaging in. That need for a c-bill sink (again this is a need Russ himself has acknowledged) is a driving reality of the game. Ignoring it in your discussions guarantees that your analysis and its conclusions are necessarily incomplete.

Also: Chris said several months ago that PGI's data shows that the Timberwolf out performs all IS 75 tonners as well as the Hellbringer and Ebon Jaguar, even at competitive levels of play. So just be grateful that he didn't nerf it even more than it already was. Make the Timber great again indeed. Best edit that OP else risk the "balance" overlords attention.

Edited by Bud Crue, 07 November 2018 - 04:01 PM.

[Cozened Indigo]

Thanks for the feedback dude.

Yeah the need to have people use their in-game currency as a driver for a constant cycle of change is an interesting point. Not sure how much of a c-bill sink the 'retooling' of mechs to keep up with 'meta' is and whether it is a major influencer on the balance picture, but its something to think on.

We do allude to this type of thinking though in Episode 4: The Big Picture, where we talk about out-of-game mechanisms (such as introducing constant change) impacting balance.

The point you've raised will be one of many we didn't mention and the document is by no means meant to be 'complete' - it's just an attempt to help people understand some of the key drivers surrounding the balance picture. Hopefully it will encourage more people like you to present these good opinions like you have. Cause hey, talking about it is what it's all about!

[Mystere]

Bud Crue, on 07 November 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

THAT is part of balance.

I don't know about everybody else. But, to me, THAT is just wasting everyone's precious time and hard-earned money for very little, if any, gain.

Cozened Indigo, on 07 November 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

Yeah the need to have people use their in-game currency as a driver for a constant cycle of change is an interesting point.

You say Interesting; I say … well, just see above.

[The6thMessenger]

I kinda agree with a LOT of parts. Especially the choose-your-mech on game-modes and synergistic quirks.

Also #MTGA

Mystere, on 07 November 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

I don't know about everybody else. But, to me, THAT is just wasting everyone's precious time and hard-earned money for very little, if any, gain.

Kind of agree with that part. I get the sink and all, but it should be at least worth the time.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 November 2018 - 07:54 PM.

[El Bandito]

Bud Crue, on 07 November 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

You forgot a key aspect regarding what is balance. You note that balance is in part to "influence change to the strategies or behaviors players are engaging in" as well as a few other elements. You left out one very big thing: the need for a currency sink.

I personally think F2P games have passed the need for currency sink. Games like League of Legends had removed their in game currency sinking glyph system, and are focusing on improved gameplay for player retention, rather than using the grind. PGI should do the same, but they are still stuck with year 2012 F2P mentality.

Shame, really. Current MWO C-Bill sinks are most likely driving new players away rather than retaining them.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 November 2018 - 09:41 PM.

[Khobai]

theres no reason to even have cbills exist at all. mechs and equipment should just be free.

cbills add absolutely nothing beneficial to the game. because people are either cbill rich which defeats the purpose of cbills or people are cbill poor which decreases their ability to enjoy the game because of constantly having to grind for cbills.

the number of mechs you can have is limited by mechbays anyway which cost MC. so if you want lots of mechs you still have to spend MC. and new mechs would still cost money or MC before theyd be available for free.

pgi should just completely do away with cbills. XP should be the only thing players should have to grind.

Edited by Khobai, 08 November 2018 - 12:07 AM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 08 November 2018 - 12:02 AM, said:

theres no reason to even have cbills exist at all. mechs and equipment should just be free.

cbills add absolutely nothing beneficial to the game. because people are either cbill rich which defeats the purpose of cbills or people are cbill poor which decreases their ability to enjoy the game because of constantly having to grind for cbills.

the number of mechs you can have is limited by mechbays anyway which cost MC. so if you want lots of mechs you still have to spend MC. and new mechs would still cost money or MC before theyd be available for free.

pgi should just completely do away with cbills. XP should be the only thing players should have to grind.

I'd argue that we don't need XP or skill tree, and players should use C-Bills to buy mechs.

Mechs should not be free. Trial mechs will be enough for the cash strapped since skill tree will be removed.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 November 2018 - 12:48 AM.

[Khobai]

El Bandito, on 08 November 2018 - 12:48 AM, said:

I'd argue that we don't need XP or skill tree, and players should use C-Bills to buy mechs.

Mechs should not be free. Trial mechs will be enough for the cash strapped since skill tree will be removed.

we dont need cbills or XP to be honest. they could remove both and it would be a massive improvement.

the only real argument for keeping XP around is as an MC sink since some people theoretically buy XP with MC. but if PGI wouldnt lose much money as a result of getting rid of XP, I say just get rid of XP too.

and why shouldnt everything be free? theres no reason to keep new players oppressed by grind walls. at this point the game cant afford to lose any new players away that might otherwise stay if they didnt have to grind things out.

grinding is stupid and pointless. if your game is good you dont need to force people to grind to get them to play it. PGI needs to focus on making their game better instead of trying to trap people with grinding.

Edited by Khobai, 08 November 2018 - 01:08 AM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 08 November 2018 - 01:04 AM, said:

and why shouldnt everything be free? theres no reason to keep new players oppressed by grind walls. at this point the game cant afford to lose any new players away that might otherwise stay if they didnt have to grind things out.

grinding is stupid and pointless. if your game is good you dont need to force people to grind to get them to play it. PGI needs to focus on making their game better instead of trying to trap people with grinding.

MWO's grind is actually lenient for purchasing mechs, especially if skill tree is removed from the equation. Besides, there is a sense of satisfaction from earning enough C-Bills to buy the mech you want.

If everything should be free, then PGI might as well make people pay money upfront to buy the game, not this silly F2P model of theirs that is clearly outdated.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 November 2018 - 02:01 AM.

[LordNothing]

i kind of think we just need to get rid of grind all together. leveling mechs is not mechwarrior. if this was some kind of mmo actual it might be a good idea. but all we got is an arena shooter and mechs in different states of leveling tend to skew the balance a lot. i dont really mind the skill trees per se, but there shouldnt be big cashwall roadblocks to finding good builds. how many crappy builds do new players have to suffer through before they figure out where the meta is. the prospect of having to level a mech pack that you paid real money for from scratch is not appealing at all under this system. especially when pgi sticks you with an inferior filler varient.

mech prices need to come down, cbill cost for unlocking nodes needs to go away and premium time needs to go to 2x. players need to be able to spend more time playing builds they want to use and less time trying to level up crap in hopes of finding something useful. if i didnt have massive piles of gxp laying around to insta-master everything i think id have left the game already. paying customers certainly dont want grind nor do they have the time to put in the hours necessary. the people who still buy mechpacks wont mind if it goes away and others might by more if the game is more fun.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 November 2018 - 02:26 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

I don't know why people are so dead set against the way P.G.I have set up 'the grind'.

They could have had us grind 120k xp just to use LPL on a TimberWolf, like other better known games, or 2 mill XP for Endo, plus the 1.5 mil.

The only real grind this game had was the GXP for unlocking modules, which was removed with the skill tree.

This games 'grind' is laughable, even when there was the rule of three.

As to the T.B.R it's days of O.P point and kill games are rightfully over.

If you want some real credibility, try promoting the Jenner.

[Cozened Indigo]

#MTJA: Make the Jenner Great (Again?)

[Spheroid]

Khobai, on 08 November 2018 - 12:02 AM, said:

theres no reason to even have cbills exist at all. mechs and equipment should just be free.

Did you forget the part where the core focus of this game was originally interstellar warfare where the player with superior equipment would have a greater degree of success in those wars? Eliminating personal grind does no favors if one ever wishes to model a functioning logistics system or the equipment reservoir that acts against attrition losses.

Also why do you think people loved MechWarrior 2 Mercs and MW4 Mercs? It was the experience of collecting, that of starting with a garbage Commando and ending with a Kodiak.

Progression and grind have been great boons to modern gaming. People objectively play games much longer than the "good old days". Skins, gun unlocks, dog tags, etc. have boosted per title play time from dozens of hours to hundreds or thousands. Its a false notion that grind lowers player count. It does the opposite.

Also casuals don't support this game financially, whales do so I don't care if they are frustrated. I am only interested if their frustration somehow effects their rate of crossing over into faction and acting as potato filler to reduce wait times. QP is meaningless and the people who inhabit it are freeloaders.

Edited by Spheroid, 08 November 2018 - 01:50 PM.

[SuperMCDad]

The only grind I find in this game, is the XP grind to level mechs to 91 points. That can be a chore, as most of the mechs just aren't great, right out of the box (even with spending the cash to upgrade the build). The C-Bills come as a natural byproduct of this. After the latest round of events, I'm up to around 200M C-Bills. Don't know how I would ever use up this kind of bank.

I guess this shows (for me at least), that the C-Bill sink isn't really doing it's job.

[Battlemaster56]

El Bandito, on 07 November 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

Games like League of Legends had removed their in game currency sinking glyph system, and are focusing on improved gameplay for player retention

Man just burst out laughing when I read that, espically bout game this season's gameplay on LoL.

Just ingore this off topic comment, I just find it hilarous.

[Cozened Indigo]

Agree with your points there Spheroid - a lot of games these days have a "grind" as a way to create "open loops" (giving people things to "achieve" so they keep playing). Gone are the days of "clocking" games. And for MWO, as a F2P, they HAVE to have a grind, cause its one of the major "hooks" to keep playing the game.

[Tiewolf]

Well done and a good explanation of the major factors except the different clusters in the player base and their competing agendas concerning balance. Thx for all the work!

Concerning the grind debate. First the grind is too much and we have way too many currencies. 2 currencies (MC&c-bills) are enough. Why Xp? Gxp?Sp?Gsp?Hxp? MWO is no mmo where you level a character. You can get rid of all these currencies or bind the skill nodes/xp to swappable mech pilots.