10 replies to this topic

[Maddermax]

Was trying to run an Arctic Wolf streak boat (5xSSRM6 +TAG) today, and I had a bit of trouble in one match. Even with TAG directly on an ECM light (and in perfect sight), I was unable to target, as the target kept flicker in and out of a target-able state continuously. When I asked about this on comms, someone said it meant there was a second ECM around, so even though TAG counters ECM, I was still unable to use streaks because of that.

Is that actually how it works? Double ECM causes flickering/unlockable targets? I have noticed this effect before, but I almost never run streaks, It hasn't really been an issue for me previously.

Edited by Maddermax, 18 November 2018 - 06:36 PM.

[Koniving]

Maddermax, on 18 November 2018 - 06:33 PM, said:

Was trying to run an Arctic Wolf streak boat (5xSSRM6 +TAG) today, and I had a bit of trouble in one match. Even with TAG directly on an ECM light (and in perfect sight), I was unable to target, as the target kept flicker in and out of a target-able state continuously. When I asked about this on comms, someone said it meant there was a second ECM around, so even though TAG counters ECM, I was still unable to use streaks because of that.

Is that actually how it works? Double ECM causes flickering/unlockable targets? I have noticed this effect before, but I almost never run streaks, It hasn't really been an issue for me previously.

There's a complex setup of soft counters and hard counters and ifs and thens.

The simplest situation is this:
You're countering ECM 1.
ECM 2 is within 90-ish meters of you. (Note: Sometimes they're literally standing on top of you to troll you).



ECM in general causes flickering targets; this means you're being jammed from within 90 meters.
It could also be, if this were a "Escort" mission, a "Jamming" rod (which you need to convert to your side), or in that mode with the two way base fighting, if you're near the enemy base and they activate the jammer.

Its best to equip BAP, which can by itself counter one ECM within 1-- (depending on your skill tree and some quirks) meters. This, combined with your TAG on the further-away enemy, can let you counter two ECM units.

(The further away enemy being the second ECM user)

[Koniving]

It is also worth noting as I just tested this to confirm: that even with TAG, even if there is just one ECM user and the enemy is within 90 meters (and you have no hard counter setup, such as no BAP/CAP, no PPC, etc), then you're still going to be jammed as TAG is a soft counter, not a hard counter.

It cannot stop the jamming, it can only cut through it to allow you to target the ECM user at a distance (whether at a range where you can normally target them by overcoming the 25% slower target lock [with its 25% faster target lock, thereby neutralizing that aspect]
or at a range when you normally can't even get them to show up with a reticle [as the TAG will create a reticle on them]).

(Had an internet hiccup)
Edited in that this is just accounting for a single ECM enemy.

Edited by Koniving, 18 November 2018 - 06:59 PM.

[Maddermax]

Koniving, on 18 November 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

It is also worth noting as I just tested this to confirm: that even with TAG, if the enemy is within 90 meters (and you have no hard counter setup, such as no BAP/CAP, no PPC, etc), then you're still going to be jammed as TAG is a soft counter, not a hard counter. It cannot stop the jamming, it can only cut through it to allow you to target the ECM user at a distance.

I suppose I could set my ECM to counter as well, just didn’t think of it in the heat of battle, and didn’t think the ECM would prevent locks like that when Tagged. A light active probe might be an idea though, so I don’t have to think about it... hmm. Anyway, streaks seem a lot of trouble to use effectively for a short range, fairly niche weapon, but maybe I just need practise.

Thanks for the info mate, very helpful!

Edited by Maddermax, 18 November 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[Koniving]

Maddermax, on 18 November 2018 - 06:57 PM, said:

I suppose I could set my ECM to counter as well, just didn’t think of it in the heat of battle, and didn’t think the ECM would prevent locks like that when Tagged. A light active probe might be an idea though, so I don’t have to think about it... hmm. Anyway, streaks seem a lot of trouble to use effectively for a short range, fairly niche weapon, but maybe I just need practise.


Thanks for the info mate, very helpful!

Given your own ECM, yes. Also since you have one, it is important to note the "BAP/CAP" or LAP method won't necessarily work for you as your own ECM on Disrupt prevents your BAP/CAP/LAP's counter functions, leaving you to have to use the ECM's counter mode (in which case BAP/CAP simply give you their range which is better than ECM's native counter range).

[Koniving]

Personally, if running a build with a heavy focus on streaks, I also pack some SRMs (preferably in the arms). A pair of SRMs with your Streak (or LRM-centric) build can go a long way to making sure you're not helpless. Here's an example (this one uses LRMs instead of Streaks, but akin to how under min range for IS LRMs renders them useless, Streaks under jamming are useless.)

[General Solo]

TAG makes an ECM target-able only if you are not in a ECM bubble yourself.

TAG doesn't really totally counter ECM like ECM counter mode or Beagle/Active probe thou.
More it just allows you to target the ECM mech on your radar.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I think they pretty much answered the case but another different case, with a potentially similar description, would be if a mech (probably a light) were running around in hills and your LoS is cut off just enough, and they have radar deprivation skills, their targeting box might appear to "flicker" as the targeting lock from LoS is lost and gained.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 21 November 2018 - 01:11 PM.

[Brizna]

@Konivig: Didn't they increase ECM range to 120m? Other than that solid advice.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Yes ECM is 120 m now. Originally it was 180, then 90, now 120. iirc, Bap/Cap is 120 m too. But these are variable based on skills unlocked in the skill tree that extend ECM and sensor range.

It's actually kinda a mess to keep track of.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 23 November 2018 - 08:49 AM.

[Koniving]

Brizna, on 21 November 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

@Konivig: Didn't they increase ECM range to 120m? Other than that solid advice.

I'll be honest, I don't keep up with it anymore. But I do believe you're correct.

TheCaptainJZ, on 23 November 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

It's actually kinda a mess to keep track of.

Exactly. They change so much crap so frequently these days I just say "Eh, screw it" and play. Kinda why I'll run whatever I feel like it, and why some of my builds from 2013 still do really well today; I flat out run what I want and make them work despite the handicaps.