61 replies to this topic

[Mechsniper]

Big problems.
1) When FP was released the experienced 12 man teams were fed skittles teams with day 1 noobs. Those guys should have had an XP limit prior to qualifying for FP, to help minimize seal clubbing. This also made it unfun to play as an experienced player unless 10 or 11 of your unit was on TS to hook up a match. Easy, make premades fight premades. Harder now than 2 years ago due to the loss of thousands of players.
2) Unbalanced matches.
I truly believe if you left MM completely random you would have more balanced matches than we see now. The math being used to make teams at every attempt has proven to be broken. I'd truly like to see random teams tried.
3) Mech balance
Lights are not supposed to be able to face time assaults with no fear as they are right now. The piranha and similar lights were meant to scout, harass, hunt down wounded assaults and heavies, and battle other lights, not tear apart new 100 tonners as it does in game.
Will stop there for now. Hardpoint issues were messed up from the K2 gauss cat, and founders were told we didn't know what we were talking about. Have beat that horse too long.

[Prototelis]

Mechsniper, on 24 November 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

Big problems.
1) When FP was released the experienced 12 man teams were fed skittles teams with day 1 noobs. Those guys should have had an XP limit prior to qualifying for FP, to help minimize seal clubbing. This also made it unfun to play as an experienced player unless 10 or 11 of your unit was on TS to hook up a match. Easy, make premades fight premades. Harder now than 2 years ago due to the loss of thousands of players.

Oh gosh no. Teams in the end game unit-centric team mode that warns you that you're dropping against experienced units. The horror.

Next thing you know random pugs will convince entire teams to sit in the drop zone on attack because the idea of going up against a handful of unit members and 6-7 trainees that are skilling mechs is so so so scarwy.

Quote

2) Unbalanced matches.
I truly believe if you left MM completely random you would have more balanced matches than we see now. The math being used to make teams at every attempt has proven to be broken. I'd truly like to see random teams tried.

This I won't disagree with. Unless you're really going on about "stomps." Which are a natural part of yolo MP games.

Quote

3) Mech balance
Lights are not supposed to be able to face time assaults with no fear as they are right now. The piranha and similar lights were meant to scout, harass, hunt down wounded assaults and heavies, and battle other lights, not tear apart new 100 tonners as it does in game.
Will stop there for now. Hardpoint issues were messed up from the K2 gauss cat, and founders were told we didn't know what we were talking about. Have beat that horse too long.

Ah here we go, the "BUT MUH ASSULT" argument. Even included the bit about "face tanking lights"

This is the only game in the series where lights are combat viable. It has been shown, that even with outliers like the PIR, wolfhound, commando, Assassin, urbie, etc in play that Assaults are still the kings of combat. Assaults are literally the highest scoring best performing class in the game. It's completely inaccurate to say that lights stand a chance against even an intermediate assault pilot. It just isn't true. Face tanking is not well rewarded in lights, or any class, and that kind of play only works against opponents who in all reality should probably better learn the basic game mechanics. People who especially don't need to play assault class mechs, because they aren't doing the team any favors occupying that tonnage slot.

Assaults are not and should not be a delete key for lesser-class mechs.

[thievingmagpi]

assaults should learn to aim.

one lb/ac20 round or hgauss to any part of a light and its useless

Edited by thievingmagpi, 24 November 2018 - 03:23 PM.

[Kynesis]

Grus, on 24 November 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

Love it when people complain about this game's learning curve and how complicated it is...

**Stares at his EvE Online account...

Path of Exile and Warframe both spring to mind as vastly more popular games that are also _massively_ complicated and time consuming to learn. Warframe's lack of instructional information on its many, many important details is notorious, let-alone the great skill required to progress or even just navigate its frequent jumping puzzles.
There's just no comparison in suggesting that learning to torso-twist, plug in some weapons or pick out a few obvious talent tree nodes is difficult.

The fact that many people skip the tutorial doesn't mean much on its own - there are plenty of occasions where people don't read instructions or go through tutorials. Most in-game tutorials are boring, uninspired and generally a total chore.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Kynesis, on 24 November 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

Path of Exile and Warframe both spring to mind as vastly more popular games that are also _massively_ complicated and time consuming to learn. Warframe's lack of instructional information on its many, many important details is notorious, let-alone the great skill required to progress or even just navigate its frequent jumping puzzles.

Wait, when did Warframe get complicated? Maybe if you've never played an RPG, I guess?

[thievingmagpi]

warframe isn't complicated. at least not mechanically. its not nearly as complex as MWO.

the only thing "complex" is all the different materials, and that's not really complex since all you need to do is read, as much as it is excessively redundant.

On the other hand EVE is complex in many ways, but its very clearly a slower paced game. it's not a "get in a robot and shoot stuff" the way MWO is, so comparing it isn't really fair.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 24 November 2018 - 03:44 PM.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

The guys who can't complete the tutorial for whatever reason, are the ones we don't want to have around

[Anjian]

RPGs are inherently massively complex. Even more so than this game. Yet many of them are much more popular. Wait till you play any MMORPG.

If you like to play games of a very popular franchise that is massively complex, you don't have to look further than perhaps the most popular game franchise of all, Pokemon. Can you honestly memorize what are the best Pokemon and the best movesets against MewTwo? Or Groudon? The amount of memorization is incredible to apply to several hundred Pokemon.

What these complex games succeed (and MWO doesn't) is in the Deception of Simplicity. In other words, they seem very simple to learn and pick up up. Classic games are also of this way --- like Chess and Go. Then it hits you, that this game won't be as easy to beat. Their eventual complexity is meant to keep the players that catch to keep going and going, until its a lifetime experience. In fact the lack of complexity is a good reason why players also leave. And then somewhere in the game it begins to hit the players that while the game might look simple, mastery might be very difficult.

Edited by Anjian, 24 November 2018 - 05:33 PM.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

This season's biggest game, Red Dead Redemption 2, is just as complicated to figure our initially as Mechwarrior. The control scheme and number of hidden mechanics in that game is actually worse.

Another absurdly complicated console game is Xenoblade Chronicles X. You have to play 30 hours before the game even lets you touch your first (bad) mech.

So surely the PC master race can handle little old MWO, which is, at its heart, basically just a team deathmatch arena shooter with standard FPS controls.

On that note, I don't think MWO gets enough credit for making mechwarrior gameplay very accessible to anyone with a mouse and keyboard, as opposed to the old days where you sort of needed a good joystick to manage the thing properly.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 24 November 2018 - 05:49 PM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Just let us deploy with our friends. That should get things rolling in terms of getting players back and new players to join. What's the point in making a MP game where you play solo, meet some people who you'd like to team up with and still are only able to play as a solo all the time 'cause the MM failed?

Do you really think PUBG or any of the multiplayer games thrive based on their gameplay? In my country, the Tencent emulator is used to play PUBG on the PC. Why do people play it? 'Cause it is easy to play matches with friends and/or add new ones and play with them instantly.

[thievingmagpi]

Anjian, on 24 November 2018 - 05:22 PM, said:

RPGs are inherently massively complex. Even more so than this game. Yet many of them are much more popular. Wait till you play any MMORPG.

If you like to play games of a very popular franchise that is massively complex, you don't have to look further than perhaps the most popular game franchise of all, Pokemon. Can you honestly memorize what are the best Pokemon and the best movesets against MewTwo? Or Groudon? The amount of memorization is incredible to apply to several hundred Pokemon.

What these complex games succeed (and MWO doesn't) is in the Deception of Simplicity. In other words, they seem very simple to learn and pick up up. Classic games are also of this way --- like Chess and Go. Then it hits you, that this game won't be as easy to beat. Their eventual complexity is meant to keep the players that catch to keep going and going, until its a lifetime experience. In fact the lack of complexity is a good reason why players also leave. And then somewhere in the game it begins to hit the players that while the game might look simple, mastery might be very difficult.

MMORPGS, for the most part, are single players games.


Whatever high skill ceiling may exist in the game is irrelevant. These are single player experiences. You can function in the game with little gaming ability and do just fine because they're single player. It's not about an illusion of complexity.

5th Fedcom Rat, on 24 November 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

This season's biggest game, Red Dead Redemption 2, is just as complicated to figure our initially as Mechwarrior. The control scheme and number of hidden mechanics in that game is actually worse.

Another absurdly complicated console game is Xenoblade Chronicles X. You have to play 30 hours before the game even lets you touch your first (bad) mech.

So surely the PC master race can handle little old MWO, which is, at its heart, basically just a team deathmatch arena shooter with standard FPS controls.

On that note, I don't think MWO gets enough credit for making mechwarrior gameplay very accessible to anyone with a mouse and keyboard, as opposed to the old days where you sort of needed a good joystick to manage the thing properly.

RDR is not anywhere near as complicated as MWO. Not mechanically, not systematically. (It's also SP, so not a fair comparison.)

Its gameplay, outside of perhaps the storyline missions, just like with GTA, is based around immediate action. Jump in, ride around, shoot stuff.

MWO doesn't have the ability to just "jump in and blow stuff up". Look at a lot of modern shooters... cod, bf etc. Even with starting equipment you're effective. I've been playing planetside 2 on and off for years and I've bought like maybe 1 new gun. Even with these games' high skill ceiling (much higher than MWO due to low ttk and fast twitch skills) its still possible to be approachable to new people because the gameplay is relatively simple. Run around, shoot.

Trial Atlas? Ehhhhhh. Good luck.

I'm not specifically critical of the grind or unlock system. I think nodes cost too much XP to unlock, that's about it. Really, I think it comes back to population size/tier system. If we had these, "skilling up" would feel good. Mastering techniques like torso twisting, mech lab meta, map awareness, etc would see leveled progression that would be rewarding while allowing new players room to learn, the ability to "git gud" if they wish to pursue it, or simply the place to run stock mechs and xl lrm atlases and not get instagibbed if they so choose.

FRAGTAST1C, on 24 November 2018 - 06:09 PM, said:

Just let us deploy with our friends. That should get things rolling in terms of getting players back and new players to join. What's the point in making a MP game where you play solo, meet some people who you'd like to team up with and still are only able to play as a solo all the time 'cause the MM failed?

Do you really think PUBG or any of the multiplayer games thrive based on their gameplay? In my country, the Tencent emulator is used to play PUBG on the PC. Why do people play it? 'Cause it is easy to play matches with friends and/or add new ones and play with them instantly.

I think this is a pop size issue again.

With more players, group drops would be instant.

Player groups in solo q would just be a nightmare.

[General Solo]

IMO the reason for player hemorrhage is when pilots pilot big stompy robuuts they wanna WIN, FEEL POWAFULL, BE KING OF THE BATTLEFIELD.

They want this even more so when dropping with their friends.

Due to skill gaps, this is not true for many.

PGI believed wrongly that they could fix this situation with tuning weapons balance when the real fix is to separate the playerbase via skill level using a functional non upward biased match maker.

Which should of been done ages ago when we still had a large population
(Short sighted weapon balance changes vs long sighted visionary matchmaker work)

IMO

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 25 November 2018 - 05:17 PM.

[LordNothing]

Spheroid, on 24 November 2018 - 09:40 AM, said:

There is nothing complex about the mechlab. Perhaps it is beyond you.

would you say that if you never looked at a mw mechlab or played tt? its pretty straightforward if you played mechwarrior 2 or 3. if you have never played a mechwarrior/battletech game you wouldn't have a clue. if you want to bring new people to the franchise you need to help them figure out how it all works.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 November 2018 - 07:37 PM.

[Anjian]

thievingmagpi, on 24 November 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

MMORPGS, for the most part, are single players games.


Whatever high skill ceiling may exist in the game is irrelevant. These are single player experiences. You can function in the game with little gaming ability and do just fine because they're single player. It's not about an illusion of complexity.

I seriously disagree with you. If anything, a MMORPG, any MMORPG has a lot more social interaction possible than MWO or any FPS or PVP arena game. Also high end raids needed to be conducted with an extreme precision of timing and teamwork. Most of all, MMORPGs are all about having extensive game knowledge.

Edited by Anjian, 24 November 2018 - 08:04 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

Anjian, on 24 November 2018 - 08:00 PM, said:

I seriously disagree with you. If anything, a MMORPG, any MMORPG has a lot more social interaction possible than MWO or any FPS or PVP arena game. Also high end raids needed to be conducted with an extreme precision of timing and teamwork. Most of all, MMORPGs are all about game knowledge.

I'm not talking about social interaction. That's a given that something with the word "massively multiplayer" has more social interaction.

I already mentioned skill ceiling and how it compares among games.

What we're talking about is New Player Experience, which is basically non-existent in MWO. In MMOs, because they're PVE games (for the most part) it's easier for noobs and bads. You just fire it up and go.

[UnofficialOperator]

Grus, on 24 November 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

Love it when people complain about this game's learning curve and how complicated it is...

**Stares at his EvE Online account...

I think you miss the point. Like Six Pack pointed out, there are so many hidden mechanics which are passed down word of mouth or via twitch streamers by accident. You look at streams by prtnspz or Twinky or ash or some of those really good emp/228 guys, you learn like little weird tips that would simply be lost.

Want to mount your gauss higher on your KDK? Put in mgs first. Like wtf?
How about ECM interactions with other mechanics? Its not written anywhere.
How about mounting UACS5 and UACS10. Which one you put on top due to the dropoff? Does it matter?
How does the crit mechanics work? Is this written anywhere in game?
How many newbies actually know you can't cap points with stealth armor toggled?
How about alpha striking way past heat limit to secure the win as long as its the last mech standing (especially Solaris)?
How many newbies know to dumbfire missiles?
How many newbies know to bend missiles?
Is armor or structure better depending on tonnages?
Is there ever any reason to use STD heatsinks at all? (oddly yes but I don't know the math)

And there are people who have played over 2000 games who pump in mobility tree in mechs other than Lights o_O. Quality of Life they say.

And yes I am aware they finally came out with a wiki https://wiki.mwomerc...title=Main_Page

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 24 November 2018 - 09:59 PM.

[Anjian]

thievingmagpi, on 24 November 2018 - 08:11 PM, said:

I'm not talking about social interaction. That's a given that something with the word "massively multiplayer" has more social interaction. I already mentioned skill ceiling and how it compares among games. What we're talking about is New Player Experience, which is basically non-existent in MWO. In MMOs, because they're PVE games (for the most part) it's easier for noobs and bads. You just fire it up and go.

MMORPGs are only easy at the start. High end raids are another matter. Actually because it is PvE is why the raid is deliberately to be crafted to be hard, then very hard, then lunatic then infernal. In PvP, on the average you can expect a 50/50 win loss rate. But on a very tough coop boss raid, 20%, 30% success rate even if you are well coordinated. Of course, you can always choose the easy raids, but the toughest raids have the rarest and most prized rewards, and the success rates can dip well down, that 10% might even be too high. It is in the interest for the game developer to make it as tough as possible so you keep on repeating the raid, increasing its consumable value, and further more, even with success, the rarest drop may not even necessarily drop, forcing you to repeat the raid again and again.

These raids are not just so experience and level sensitive but also gear sensitive, that people will abandon the raid if they see that you are not properly equipped for the raid. That means not only do you have the most powerful and rarest equipment, but you also have them level maxed out, or even limit broken. The best way to describe these raids is not a party fighting a monster but more of that of a highly orchestrated, no better yet, choreographed, series of actions that need to be repeatedly practiced to perfection, or you will risk instant death. Every one in the party must know their part and perform it with synchronicity like a ballet or an opera.




Like absolutely you have no idea that I left a PvE game for PvP games.

[Dee Eight]

Only solution at this stage to the solo queue matchmaker issue is to dump the whole notion of tiers, elo, psr or any sort of skill based team matching and just go with one bucket where folks are totally random selected. There simply isn't the player pool even during NA peak times any longer for anything else to work. ASH's rejigging the formula and global reset might have worked in May when the population nearly equaled the peak from 2 years ago, and when the population was 50% higher than it is currenly..but now... not a chance.

[Phoenix 72]

thievingmagpi, on 24 November 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

MMORPGS, for the most part, are single players games.


Whatever high skill ceiling may exist in the game is irrelevant. These are single player experiences. You can function in the game with little gaming ability and do just fine because they're single player. It's not about an illusion of complexity.

Maybe you played the wrong MMORPGs, then. I started with Ultima Online and Everquest, and especially EQ was really hard. You could do **** all alone. You needed a group to play and progress. When you died you lost experience (and potentially your level), that could at times wipe out the progress of 2 weeks worth of playing 2-3 hours every day. When it first came out, there were people that never reached the maximum level, because they died often enough that they never progressed beyond a certain point.

For raids you needed up to 72 people you had to coordinate.

After a while it was dumbed down a bit, but still fairly complicated. That was around 2004 or so, give or take.

[Lightfoot]

I hate to say it, but MechWarrior is a Joystick game like a Flight Sim. The controls make sense to anyone who plays Sims (if you have Mech_Turn set to the Joystick X axis, which MWO does not for some odd reason) . New players could pick up Joysticking mechs in a few matches. Unfortunately, setting up the responses for the Joystick is very complex. I wrote a basic guide on doing it, but even so it takes patience before you get it right.

I think your average new player is discouraged by the complexity of managing 4 axis's with a mouse and keyboard. You can learn it over time, but how fun is it? Is it as fun as other mouse shooters without the 4 axis's restriction? Shouldn't MechWarrior be a different experience for those who want it?

Just saying. You play MWO the way you want, but Joystick should be a highly supported option for those who expect a more simulated Mech experience. Joystick is much easier than using a Mouse and Keyboard. It's natural. Intuitive. I got two pilot characters to Tier 2 using only a Joystick so it's no slouch for getting accurate hits and moving agilely.

However, PGI and most players do not support using a joystick. There is good joystick support in MWO, true enough, but I am seeing many players can't get get it working right for them. So I guess it needs a better interface than what is in the Controllers Tab.

You want more players in MWO. Well many will not use a Mouse and Keyboard to do it no matter what. What are you going to do?

I would never play MWO with a mouse. MechWarrior is a joystick game to me and many others. Two words, "Mech Simulation".