536 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Just going to reiterate my two cents on behalf of the FP dispossessed who haven’t regularly played since phase 3 when PGI crushed our hopes and dreams of CW ever being fun again and now we only play during events crowd:

The problem with FP from the perspective of the casual player is the stomps, and the inevitable pittance of a reward when you get stomped; and the frustration of there being no mechanism to encourage cat herding when dropping in small groups or even solo. This was all fairly tolerable during phase 2 and early phase 3 when there was still a population sufficient to give casual groups a good chance of often getting other casual groups as opponents. Sure there were stomps and sure there were folks dropping in the mode who didn’t give a damn, but those circumstances were an occasional reality that many of us just accepted as part of the game. Chances were, back then, that after the stomp, or after the match with the 5 pugs who always reinforced, or whatever; you would get a better match next time because there were enough other similarly situated folks playing (and of course back then you could always roll the dice and try a different planet).

Nowadays, as the population has plummeted, casual groups and especially small casual groups -even during events- more often than not end up going up against high skill organized teams of regular FP players rather than other casual groups or even randos. When you do get a match, there are often several “pugs” on your team who are just playing “for themselves” often to the detriment of the team, and thus making what would have been a run of the mill beat down a truly spectacular one-sided stomp. And then that happens over and over and over until you and yours can’t take it anymore and you leave; and accelerate the population drop of the mode even more. The result is then those few but dedicated regular CW players remain, with no one to fight, and thus suffer longer wait times and more ghost drops, until they too finally get fed up and leave as well.

So imho, we need something, anything, that entices casual folks and former CW players to return to the mode for all our sake and we need mechanisms to encourage folks of all skill levels to play as a team. Without population increasing dramatically and then providing that population with motivations to play the mode as it is designed, none of this matters.

I see some of what has been mentioned above being a step in the right direction, but I also see on the list that rewards to encourage team play listed as a not likely. I hope that changes. In any case, good luck Paul. I hope whatever you do is enough to get folks playing again no matter what.

[Bad Code]

Since the playerbase is dwindling, why can't we just roll quick play into faction play? My favorite part of FP is having a drop deck. Even in its prime in QP, I felt like I spent more time waiting then actually PLAYING the game. It's why I stopped playing(waiting). click play, wait 3 minutes for a match that lasts 5 minutes. In FP it was worse. IDK how many hours I've spent staring at a little wheel, just waiting for a game. I want to play the game, not wait to find a match.. And that's why I havent spent a dime on this game since the Clan II-C collection. (for the record I've spent close to $700 on this game since beta)

[Daurock]

Paul Inouye, on 06 December 2018 - 05:29 PM, said:

Just want to throw this out there. There's talk here about the tonnage restrictions for high level teams.

Earning 'Mechs and buying 'Mechs is an invested part of MWO. Limiting an entire team by a significant tonnage difference is a rather steep wall of saying "you can't play those 'Mechs because you're too good in them". Also, as others have pointed out... a team of well organized, high-level players is still going to win even with a big tonnage restriction in-place.

The MM doesn't know of a team's reputation from previous wins. Does the 8392th Deuces always drop 12 man? What if there are 2 players from 8392th Deuces on a team with a bunch of random pugs? Do the rest of the pugs get hit with the tonnage restriction because of those 2? Take an average W/L? An average is not going to work because there are so many permutations to a player's success rating that an average will favor high skilled players because averages pull top players down and bottom players up. 4 high skilled players far outweighs the 4 lower skilled players on the team in terms of battlefield success.

Does the tonnage restriction change based on the team ranking? That's going to be a logistical nightmare for teams having to change drop decks on the fly (even after we increase the number of drop decks you can have). If you're on the lower 'ranking' team, who gets the extra tonnage? Who's allowed to take heavier 'Mechs now that the team you're facing is 'better' than yours?

In theory, you could avoid all of the logistical stuff brought about by sliding tonnage by instead implementing "Noob Armor," where poor players literally take less incoming damage. It neatly avoids changing the nature of the match via mech choice, is something far less visible to most players, and is something that could be applied to individual players if need be (I.E. great player gets a more fragile mech than his less-skilled teammates)

It's still a relatively poor idea, due to skill being a nebulous thing to define numerically, and due to the fact that you do NOT need to have an amazingly skilled team to wipe the floor with a herd of cats. Skill can turn a good team into a great one, but a good one is still absolutely going to terrorize the majority of players and pickup groups out there. (Sidenote - it might make more sense to instead of using skill, simply use a "loss multiplier" where players that have lost a couple of matches in a row become progressively harder to damage, until they actually start winning.)


(For the record, none of this is serious thought. More like pre-covfefe spitballing.)

Edited by Daurock, 07 December 2018 - 11:24 AM.

[Appogee]

After 45 fruitless minutes of watching 'Searching' with no lobby, I stopped trying to play FP today.

[Peter2k]

TWLT S, on 07 December 2018 - 04:57 AM, said:

Please do something for solo players in FP. There must be some kind of separation of premades and solo or small groups. And dont overestimate the units advices in this regards. I think solo and casual players have not enough lobby in the game anyways.

And please also realize that the friendslist, the LFG, calls to Arms and chat are complex !, that have to be tied toghether somehow. Best thing regarding this is, that the other parts of the game would also greatly benefit from bringing this elements together. E.G. solaris 2man teams although I dont care about it.

Solo and casual players would really benefit from this and hence stay in the game instead of leaving it.

Well we discussed that a whole ago, and Paul even made a video about it.
We're gonna try a MM that will put groups against each other first.

How well that plays out?
Sigh, not sure we have the player base post Long Tom to support 2 ques at all.

Appogee, on 07 December 2018 - 06:21 AM, said:

After 45 fruitless minutes of watching 'Searching' with no lobby, I stopped trying to play FP today.

You know what's funny and bitter at the same time?




Look at that list and look at what actually happened.

You have to stretch the timetable a bit, but, the FP changes and more balance does feel like maintenance mode, cuz for me balance and fixing things is maintenance.
And there is nothing else in the works

Edited by Peter2k, 07 December 2018 - 06:38 AM.

[Flow5tate]

#MakeLongTomGreatAgain...... nah JK!

[SteelMantis]

The big problem in my eyes is and always has been the team vs pug stomps that drive players out of the mode and game.

A match maker would have worked years ago when there were more people playing but I very much doubt it will do anything now.

I'm for increasing drop deck tonnage for smaller groups, if somebody is going to solo queue into a group mode go ahead and let them take a 400 ton drop deck. Then the groups don't have to worry about changing their drop decks every match and the smaller groups solos will know ahead of time what their tonnage would be. Also solo dropping should have it's rewards buffed, something like 100% increase to C-bills and LP.

Most likely we are going to see the opposite happen and groups get more rewards for playing easy mode and encourage more stomps. Which combined with the MM will do nothing to bring in new players and the mode will stay dead.

Although I'll be happy if I'm wrong.

[Nightbird]

Creating a game is about creating an experience. Art assets, UIs, maps, can all be a part of that, but the success or failure will always rest on the play experience. If the experience is one where victories come after a serious effort, and losses comes after a close defeat, then it will be a one which people will return to time after time. If the experience is where victories takes zero effort, and losses feel irresistible, then both victors and losers will stop returning.

Are we prioritizing the right things with this list of features?

[Metachanic]

Echoing Navid's point about map updates. High-effort, but very important in the long run to ease the defender's advantage.

Boreal Vault

• Add more trading positions outside the gates. With narrow approaches and basically only one ridge on each gate attackers can trade from, it is essentially impossible to get any early lead before dropping the generators and rushing in through strikes and a nasty concave inherent in the defender's side of the map.

Vitric Forge

• Make jump jet access to the upper portions ("roof") of the map easier from the attacking side. Defenders can easily stack mechs up here and spam ATMs or LRMs with minimal counter-play options, and only a few truly viable mechs can reach top from the outside, especially on IS mechs with harder tonnage limits and fewer jets.
  
• Re-orient generators so they can't all be killed from the high ground. It is entirely possible to knock out O-Gens 1, 2, and 3 without touching the ground. Countering this strat is exceptionally tricky if it's executed properly.

Hellebore Springs

• Add more cover options at the choke points inside the gates. There are already ridges which can work here (a low one inside the north gate, and a very high one inside the south gate), but only JJ mechs can clear them. Improving access to each ridge with shallower ramps on the attacking sides will reducing funneling and give attackers the option of trading from inside the gates before pushing further.

Somewhat tangential, but important for FP; could you investigate larger hitboxes for UAVs? As it stands, they're so small that you basically always need to stand still to down one, which is dangerous under heavy LRM fire and uniformly lethal under direct fire. Making them easier to hit on the move would be very useful considering how hard people spam them in FP drops.

A third free drop deck available to all players would be another excellent quality of life addition. Conquest mode has much different demands than Skirmish, Seige, and Assault, and it would be nice to be able to keep a long-range deck, short-range deck, and a Conquest deck ready at all times, especially if the time in lobby will be decreased.

Increased loss rewards could go a long way toward easing the pain of a stomp, and don't even require MM changes (which I welcome). A long FP match ending in a loss is quite punishing when combined with the game's overall grind and the time spent in queue. Shorter match windows (every 2 minutes instead of 10) should help considerably, but I would still like to see higher rewards for a loss. Enough to make it competitive with a roughly even W:L record during the same amount of time (queues included) dropping in Quick Play.

Edited by Metachanic, 07 December 2018 - 08:42 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Metachanic, on 07 December 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

Echoing Navid's point about map updates. High-effort, but very important in the long run to ease the defender's advantage.


Vitric Forge

• Make jump jet access to the upper portions ("roof") of the map easier from the attacking side. Defenders can easily stack mechs up here and spam ATMs or LRMs with minimal counter-play options, and only a few truly viable mechs can reach top from the outside, especially on IS mechs with harder tonnage limits and fewer jets.
  
• Re-orient generators so they can't all be killed from the high ground. It is entirely possible to knock out O-Gens 1, 2, and 3 without touching the ground. Countering this strat is exceptionally tricky if it's executed properly.

I disagree with this. Vitric is one of the few maps that highlights the asymmetrical differences in Clan and IS. When IS is defending with 100 ton LBX and UACS. Clan can counter by going vertical. Taking that away means you're just going to be smashing ballistic assault mechs against each other from both side. That happens plenty enough on Emerald Tiaga and Sulfurous Rift. And it's not like IS doesn't have options for getting vertical. Assassins, Dual gauss Cataphract, MRM quickdraw. As far as getting up from the outside, it takes a medium with 42 jump capability to get up from outside with no skills. Build accordingly.

Agree on the other map points though.

[Metachanic]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 07 December 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

Vitric is one of the few maps that highlights the asymmetrical differences in Clan and IS. When IS is defending with 100 ton LBX and UACS. Clan can counter by going vertical. Taking that away means you're just going to be smashing ballistic assault mechs against each other from both side. That happens plenty enough on Emerald Tiaga and Sulfurous Rift.

I'm less concerned by Clans attacking (perfectly fine apart from generator orientation, I'd say) than Clans defending. So many Clan mechs can make it up there from inside, and so few IS mechs can make it up there from outside, that a high hold becomes extraordinarily difficult to counter. Especially since quite a few Siege attack mechs don't even have the torso pitch or enough arm-mounted weapons to fight something on top.

Another option; if there was some position where you could cover top, but not the low ground, from outside with long-range weapons, it would add interesting asymmetry.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

There are a bunch of IS mediums capable if built right. And once inside there are plenty of places to get vertical for heavies with jets. It just means taking mediums and heavies instead of Assaults for attack. 3-4 SRM/MRM Griffins would clear the top off pretty quick.

[Windscape]

I had an idea, but I forgot it after going through this entire thread...

[Metachanic]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 07 December 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

There are a bunch of IS mediums capable if built right.

Plenty of mediums can do it, indeed. The issue is that they're encountering AC2 Night Gyrs, ATM Hunchies, dakka Vapor Eagles, etc. Even some Streak mechs placed purely to counter them, as the arms race for top intensifies. Enormous firepower, and that's before you consider that those mechs frequently pop UAVs and make the top-clearing mechs into targets for every LRM boat on the map. Vitric would be considerably more dynamic if the IS had a broader range of heavy options capable of reaching top from outside.

Edited by Metachanic, 07 December 2018 - 09:33 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

For every clam mech you listed, there is a counter IS medium. It just takes teamwork, coordination, and making the right chess move to counter your opponent. We've strayed off topic a bit, but if changes are to be made to maps, I think Vitric lays at the bottom of the list of maps needing adjustments.

[Metachanic]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 07 December 2018 - 09:41 AM, said:

...if changes are to be made to maps, I think Vitric lays at the bottom of the list of maps needing adjustments.

On that, we agree.

[Spheroid]

Paul Inouye, on 06 December 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

Story/Lore/Faction driven choices to cement a desire to stay loyal

The purpose of faction warfare is to increase the size of your realm vis a vis your competitors. It is not a bland two sided conflict. There is no need or desire to create more human authored mini-events(which anger non-participant powers) when such match ups could be ongoing and automatically generated as a part of a changes to the functioning of FP.

By sharing attackers and defenders in logical constructs of twenty-four players you simply rotate through all the various factional fronts in non-sequencial turns proportional to the their population.

If you bring back multiple fronts you again allow for geographic santuary since a Liao player will more frequenty fight Marik or Davion instead of being a slot filler on the Clan front. Reducing the frequency of stomps is a much easier task than any method of controlling the intensity of stomps via matchmaking or tonnage restrictions.

Contract lock any mercs to a given faction for the duration of a round. A round being defined a x number of turns across all factions. At the end of the round conduct a census of active faction loyalists and adjust their number of turns accordingly. This method completely solves the problems of low population filling multiple buckets given that you relax or eliminate the time constraints needed for planetary capture.

Edited by Spheroid, 07 December 2018 - 10:48 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Decency, on 06 December 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

• [color=blue]Drop Zone wall angle adjustments.[/color]

Very important for preventing spawncamping, +1 from me if executed properly. But if the dropship isn't able to hit someone who is standing still behind the wall, that's actually worse than having than no walls at all.

If the walls were triangles with the apex facing out, it might prevent them from being used as cover as effectively from the outside. No matter what side you press up against, you're exposed to an opening from inside the drop zone.

[Nightbird]

TheCaptainJZ, on 07 December 2018 - 10:44 AM, said:

If the walls were triangles with the apex facing out, it might prevent them from being used as cover as effectively from the outside. No matter what side you press up against, you're exposed to an opening from inside the drop zone.

Walls kill immersion as is, who the hell builds walls for people to attack you with?

Nightbird, on 05 November 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:

Idea: Change dropship zones to this format to greatly reduce farming. No Trump walls needed. Make sure the drop zone is at an elevated location, with slopes that give no cover to attackers within dropship range. The mechs are dropped into a slight depression (bombed out crater using earth moving ordinance), protecting them from all incoming fire due to elevated position. Make change on one-two maps at a time to fit within scope of 1 month improvements.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5940899

[Imperius]

Paul Inouye, on 06 December 2018 - 05:29 PM, said:

Just want to throw this out there. There's talk here about the tonnage restrictions for high level teams.

Earning 'Mechs and buying 'Mechs is an invested part of MWO. Limiting an entire team by a significant tonnage difference is a rather steep wall of saying "you can't play those 'Mechs because you're too good in them". Also, as others have pointed out... a team of well organized, high-level players is still going to win even with a big tonnage restriction in-place.

The MM doesn't know of a team's reputation from previous wins. Does the 8392th Deuces always drop 12 man? What if there are 2 players from 8392th Deuces on a team with a bunch of random pugs? Do the rest of the pugs get hit with the tonnage restriction because of those 2? Take an average W/L? An average is not going to work because there are so many permutations to a player's success rating that an average will favor high skilled players because averages pull top players down and bottom players up. 4 high skilled players far outweighs the 4 lower skilled players on the team in terms of battlefield success.

Does the tonnage restriction change based on the team ranking? That's going to be a logistical nightmare for teams having to change drop decks on the fly (even after we increase the number of drop decks you can have). If you're on the lower 'ranking' team, who gets the extra tonnage? Who's allowed to take heavier 'Mechs now that the team you're facing is 'better' than yours?

3/3/3/3 was acceptable. Tonnage restrictions is one big reason my unit dwindled out. If you can’t play your favorite mechs with your friends then the game isn’t fun and we look for other games not punishing team play.