13 replies to this topic

[suffocater]

I brawl on oasis, healthy heat between 50 and 70%, ST loss, what just happens while brawling, mech shuts down - DEAD.

I understand brawling is now finally not only near to zero fun, it is absolutely forbidden.

[Tarl Cabot]

Essentially if you are running hot and lost a ST and any HS on that side and you are at 90% on the heat scale, you will shut down. Previously it was not doing that as it was removing it from the bottom instead of the top. Edited, as can be seen, it did not click mech was approx 50-70% heat bar

Now, with in place... making isXL survive ST loss with a higher percentage while reducing the cXL and LFE engine heat penalty percentage sure is looking sweet....

Quote

Destroyed Heat Sinks and Clan XL / IS Light Engine side torso destruction penalties now removes total heat threshold from the top of the available heat pool rather then from the bottom.


This will mean that instead of limiting the amount of heat your bar can be reduced to, redlining to the edge of the shutdown threshold will result in a shutdown or an overridden state if an enemy destroys Heat Sinks or damages an engine out from under you.

Heat System Design Notes: We have decided to make some back end changes to the way the heat threshold system is calculated in order to address a number of heat related display bugs that resulted in irregular heat bar behavior when components where destroyed out from under a player while they still had accumulated heat. While this change is mostly targeted to remove these heat display bugs, this will carry with it some shifts to the way that the heat system works. Especially when it comes to 'Mechs that are redlining and have their components blown out from under them. We felt this change adds a slight bit more to the risk / reward factor for those that redline their 'Mechs close to the shutdown threshold, and is most apparent when a Clan XL or Inner Sphere Light side torso destruction penalty kicks in.

Edited and added - Which engine and how many heat sinks?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 December 2018 - 06:24 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

You can be at 75% and shutdown Tarl or blow up from overheat /take excessive damage depending on the situation.

This change was done as an attempt fix the heat bug. It has not fixed it (already proof it's still there).

This change is not good for the game in any way, shape or form with it's current implementation. I understand what it is trying to do, but it is totally failing at it

[Major Major Catch 22]

justcallme A S H, on 12 December 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

You can be at 75% and shutdown Tarl or blow up from overheat /take excessive damage depending on the situation.

This change was done as an attempt fix the heat bug. It has not fixed it (already proof it's still there).

This change is not good for the game in any way, shape or form with it's current implementation. I understand what it is trying to do, but it is totally failing at it

I like the change, because it makes ppl manage heat better, esp ppl who keep at heat cap and not properly "cool off" so they can maintain a high dps,

THis imho is exactly what is needed to nerf high alpha builds they were talking about in the first place as much as i remember from whats been written before.

I know its not popular or what others think should be done but I would like to see how it goes for a few more months, gather the relevant data and then come to a conclusion rather than subjective solo interpretation.

my solo opinion (sarcasm) ty for considering !

[justcallme A S H]

How does it make people manage heat better when for torso twisting/shielding and losing a torso your heat bar suddenly goes up by 'X'

Where 'X' will vary between map and also I would imagine map ambient temperature.

I played a match earlier and webt from 85% to 99% instantly on a torso loss. If I had override on I would have instantly shut down adding extra pain to a torso loss. Or if I was purely unlucky, potentially died. Just lucky the side I lost didn't have the DHS in it so it could dissipate fast enough.

I already manage my heat well above most and yet now I'm expected to account for losing a torso at any given point in a match? That's ridiculous.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Had heatbug today in a cyclops, undamaged internal. Great fix.

[Tarl Cabot]

For the OP, I actually misread the actual post when I posted, followed by forgetting how the new heat bar/scale is generated, as I have now detailed it below. The new taking it off the top and what occurred to you while brawling, provided you were in that percentage range, shows that PGI had not fixed the underlying bug(s), one which may have been purely visual while the other one removed too many heatsinks/percentages.

Do you have a screenshot if the end credits with the ID# visible? Post it and email it to PGI.

Toha Heavy Industries, on 13 December 2018 - 03:49 AM, said:

Had heatbug today in a cyclops, undamaged internal. Great fix.

Do you have a screenshot or recording of the endgame shot with the ID#? Post it if you would or email it to PGI.

From the notes, there looks like there were more than the two bugs, which might or might not be related to each other, or they were not able to replicate or logs not available.

Quote

Fixed a bug where heat drops when destroying the torso of a 'Mech equipped with a Light Engine.

• Bug 1 - Heat bar does not move up. Visual queue with flashing and verbal warnings are being generated.
  
• Bug 2 - Heat bar maxed out and heat not dissipation, no apparent engine/heat sink damage. Visual queue w/ flashing-verbal warnings
  
• Bug 3 = Bug 1? - Looks like there was one where just Light Engine (just LFE? ) side was destroyed the visually, the heat bar would drop without affecting the server side level. It would appear to be related to Bug 1 but only players using Clan mechs had posted video feeds of the event.

Unless something has changed, that engine heat dissipation of 40% is the number of heat sinks being taken out. Below is the original statements by PGI with their example when it was introduced with the 20% penalty. Note for Omni mechs, players are not able to add/remove HS from the their cXL engines,

Quote

With this in mind, we have decided to implement a rule that the destruction of a side torso in a Clan 'Mech will result in a loss of 20% of the engines internal heat sink capacity. By way of example, a Timber Wolf with 15 internal engine heat sinks will lose the cooling equivalent of 3 of those heat sinks.

https://mwomercs.com...tober-road-map/

Quote

https://mwomercs.com...39-07-oct-2014/

New heat penalties when a 'Mech equipped with a Clan XL engine loses a side torso.

• The 'Mech will lose 20% of the heat sinks in the engine.
  
• This percentage is calculated as the total of the heat sinks integral to the engine as well as any equipped in its heat sink slots.
  
• The lost heat sinks are removed from those integral to the engine

So if a mech only has the only the 10 engine HS and the ST is destroyed for cXL/LFE, the mech is left with 6 HS.

Now the heatbar is also being affected. Current heat bar/scale is 30 base + 20 engine HS = 50, then if any additional HS, add DHS 0.5 heat capacity/ SHS 0.75 per sink

https://mwomercs.com...41840-16oct2018

• 30 base + 20 from 10 engine HS = 50 heat capacity = 100% heat bar
  
• Destroy ST which removes 4 HS, leaving 6 HS .. 30base + 12 = 42 heat capacity.for new 100% heat bar
  
• 
  ST destroyed- mech with only engine HS: new 42 heat capacity which is a 16% change in the heat capacity but it is not reflected in the percentage mark, which still shows 100% mark. This new mark should be changed to show the new percentage at 84% but lets leave it at that cause there is still heat bug issues that is not just visual.

When a ST is destroyed for a cXL-LFE, the heat capacity would be reduced but the bar/percentage does not change.
As per my additional first part of this post, even if there a ST was destroyed w/cXL-LFE, the heat capacity would only slightly be reduced. And since the actual effects is being generated server side, alarms/flashing lights, if it was only a visual display bug those items would not be going off.


It also would not be the first time a coder added or adjusted entries with the wrong numbers, decimal in the wrong place, etc in a game.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 December 2018 - 03:14 PM.

[General Solo]

Beween 50-70% thats what they all say

Also isnt the penalty 40% so from 100% thats 60%, which is why your 70% shutdown

Im thinking u need to be at 60% or less to avoid a shutdown or overide and fry

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 13 December 2018 - 07:35 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

OZHomerOZ, on 13 December 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

Beween 50-70% thats what they all say

Also isnt the penalty 40% so from 100% thats 60%, which is why your 70% shutdown

Im thinking u need to be at 60% or less to avoid a shutdown or override and fry

I had also thought it that way originally, but 40% is engine heat dissipation. And I went looking for the original patch notes and the original patch notes, when it was 20%, is based on the number of engine heat sinks itself, and that is all of the heatsinks in that cXL engine (Omni can not add nor remove extra engine HS). So 15 teHS - 20% = 12 teHS, 15 eHS - 40% = 9 teHS (te = total HS equipped in engine and engine slots)

Of course, that does not mean PGI had not changed which data the calculations are utilizing since its introduction. Until PGI says something different, the above would technically be correct.

The issue though appears that was/'is more than one bug in the system, the visual heat bar bug and the total dissipation becoming almost non--existent, as if some sort of formulary is caught in a loop. It is possible it has been there for more than a few months but it is not consistent, that is one can not replicate it with the same mech and load out on the same map. I recall only having no dissipation bug occurring twice with the second time happening and identifying it after reading about it here, which then jump with the same mech on the Testing Grounds, as I was not setup to put two accounts into the private lobby yet.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Tarl Cabot, on 13 December 2018 - 06:18 AM, said:

For the OP, I actually misread the actual post when I posted, followed by forgetting how the new heat bar/scale is generated, as I have now detailed it below. The new taking it off the top and what occurred to you while brawling, provided you were in that percentage range, shows that PGI had not fixed the underlying bug(s), one which may have been purely visual while the other one removed too many heatsinks/percentages.

Do you have a screenshot if the end credits with the ID# visible? Post it and email it to PGI.


Do you have a screenshot or recording of the endgame shot with the ID#? Post it if you would or email it to PGI.

From the notes, there looks like there were more than the two bugs, which might or might not be related to each other, or they were not able to replicate or logs not available.

• Bug 1 - Heat bar does not move up. Visual queue with flashing and verbal warnings are being generated.
  
• Bug 2 - Heat bar maxed out and heat not dissipation, no apparent engine/heat sink damage. Visual queue w/ flashing-verbal warnings
  
• Bug 3 = Bug 1? - Looks like there was one where just Light Engine (just LFE? ) side was destroyed the visually, the heat bar would drop without affecting the server side level. It would appear to be related to Bug 1 but only players using Clan mechs had posted video feeds of the event.

Unless something has changed, that engine heat dissipation of 40% is the number of heat sinks being taken out. Below is the original statements by PGI with their example when it was introduced with the 20% penalty. Note for Omni mechs, players are not able to add/remove HS from the their cXL engines,





So if a mech only has the only the 10 engine HS and the ST is destroyed for cXL/LFE, the mech is left with 6 HS.

Now the heatbar is also being affected. Current heat bar/scale is 30 base + 20 engine HS = 50, then if any additional HS, add DHS 0.5 heat capacity/ SHS 0.75 per sink

https://mwomercs.com...41840-16oct2018

• 30 base + 20 from 10 engine HS = 50 heat capacity = 100% heat bar
  
• Destroy ST which removes 4 HS, leaving 6 HS .. 30base + 12 = 42 heat capacity.for new 100% heat bar

As per my additional first part of this post, even if there a ST was destroyed w/cXL-LFE, the heat capacity would only slightly be reduced. And since the actual effects is being generated server side, alarms/flashing lights, if it was only a visual display bug those items would not be going off.


It also would not be the first time a coder added or adjusted entries with the wrong numbers, decimal in the wrong place, etc in a game.

I didn't saved anything, it's not like it's that rare so i honestly didn't bother reporting.

I only ever have one bug regarding to heat and that is the dispension rate which just doesn't wants to fall in a decent manner (maybe 1% heat dispension every 2 seconds).

[Lightfoot]

Tarl Cabot, on 12 December 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

Essentially if you are running hot and lost a ST and any HS on that side and you are at 90% on the heat scale, you will shut down. Previously it was not doing that as it was removing it from the bottom instead of the top. Edited, as can be seen, it did not click mech was approx 50-70% heat bar

Now, with in place... making isXL survive ST loss with a higher percentage while reducing the cXL and LFE engine heat penalty percentage sure is looking sweet....



Edited and added - Which engine and how many heat sinks?

hang on.. the CT contains 10 to 15 heatsinks depending on engine size. So how can losing an ST with 0-5 heatsinks cause such problems? Because it's a Nerf, an extremely over done nerf too.

[Rick T Dangerous]

Lightfoot, on 02 January 2019 - 02:01 PM, said:

hang on.. the CT contains 10 to 15 heatsinks depending on engine size. So how can losing an ST with 0-5 heatsinks cause such problems? Because it's a Nerf, an extremely over done nerf too.

Not quite. It's not the CT that contains those 10 to 15 HS/DHS, it's the engine. LFE and cXL extend to the STs, so loosing a ST means loosing some of the engines HS/DHS.

Major Major Catch 22, on 13 December 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

I know its not popular or what others think should be done but I would like to see how it goes for a few more months, gather the relevant data and then come to a conclusion rather than subjective solo interpretation.

The "relevant data" after a few more months of this $#!+ will be: more players leaving. The whole thing being "not popular" indicates that it's more than just "subjective solo interpretation", it's one of those things that make the player base in unison go

[Lightfoot]

Rick T Dangerous, on 02 January 2019 - 06:09 PM, said:

Not quite. It's not the CT that contains those 10 to 15 HS/DHS, it's the engine. LFE and cXL extend to the STs, so loosing a ST means loosing some of the engines HS/DHS.

That would be about 25% of the mech's heatsinks for a Clan XL and 30% for an Inner Sphere XL, but the heat penalty is more like 60 to 70 percent or more. Just saying MWO has the penalty way overdone as a heavy nerf. Meanwhile the LFE's seem to suffer no penalty. It's too beaucoup.

[Tarl Cabot]

For cXL/LFE lost of ST is 2 out of 10 engine slots, isXL is 3 out of 12 engine slots. The engine crit system of BT is meant to represent engine shielding. A STD in BT would not die until it had lost 50% of its shielding, or 3 out of 6 engine crit slots in the CT.

So far, I personally have only seen 2 videos of a player shutting down or blowing up when losing a ST but only when they were actually riding that 100% redline when losing the ST.