47 replies to this topic

[Phoenix 72]

But... But... But it is the season of peace, love and understanding...

[justcallme A S H]

Verilligo, on 20 December 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

Then here's a more specific question, which may be especially appropriate to ask a member of Empyreal. Do you actually have the layout of every map in the game memorized? I mean with most maps that's not too hard, there's plenty of landmarks to orient yourself with, but when it comes to something like Polar Highlands on modes other than Domination or Conquest, every time I play on the map it feels like I'm seeing it for the first time, without a good idea of where the best approach routes and gullies are. The overhead map doesn't always seem to be reliable in those cases, so how do you go about memorizing the layout? Is it just pure practice or are there easier ways of knowing or recognizing the lay of the land?

I can run a Med / Hvy brawler and still crank out upward of 800dmg+ on Polar Assault very regularly.

Some of that comes from knowing the map but most of it comes from just looking at the minimap and paying attention to where the enemies are in relation to you and your team. You need patience essentially and attack/peak/shoot at the right time

Most maps the fighting is done in a 4-5 square area of the map. To learn the little extra useable areas of terrain should take no more than 50 matches on said map to work out.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 20 December 2018 - 11:33 AM.

[Shadowomega1]

There are only a few times I can think of in which not shooting is the better option.

1. Venting (cooling off) doing this after pushing the heat bar to its max and the next shot would deal major internal damage or shut you down in front of enemy fire.

2. SRM mech and well out of range of the enemy death ball which you have no intention of running into till the two groups go into get distracted with firing at each other.

3. Sneaking past the enemy to get a shot on a better target/shot, or scouting/spotting for your teams lrms.

4. Peaking the ridge one more time will be your death.

Edited by Shadowomega1, 20 December 2018 - 11:36 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

It’s qp...so matches vary between
1. Can my teams lights nascar and kill the other teams slow assaults faster than their lights can do the same to my teams slow assaults....if yes = win.,otherwise= lose
Or
2. 1/2 of a team treating the match as is if it were an excerise in “who can hide behind whom” individually rolling backwards in a mostly non-fighting retreat (attempting to use each other as “armor”) vs. receiving just even the most modest of pushes together and killing the 1-3 mechs that actually come around that corner (Rock, etc). As the OP states....once the half of the team not doing this is dead, well it’s over.

Aggression always wins matches...in trading, brawling, (as the OP states, you have to shoot) etc. but too many players would seemingly rather be the last to die in a 12-2 loss than take the chance of being one of the few to die in a 12-2 win.

[Wolfy36]

People standing behind cover not shooting or doing anything kills me a little bit more every time I see it. The only reason you shouldn't be shooting is if you are 1.) Hot 2.) Repositioning

I think a lot of the fresh off the boat players don't get that you can poke around a bend that you control, fire your load, back off, wait for your weapons to cooldown and rinse/repeat the process unlimited times until enemy mechs are dead. If you start taking more damage then you are dishing out at a spot, probably time to reposition.

Polar always gets me though... it's like people don't know there are trenches in the map that lead you to places where you can get within whatever range you need in order to murder the other team.

[R Valentine]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 20 December 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

Aggression always wins matches...in trading, brawling, (as the OP states, you have to shoot) etc. but too many players would seemingly rather be the last to die in a 12-2 loss than take the chance of being one of the few to die in a 12-2 win.

Half of this is PGI's fault for rewarding everyone for all the wrong things. You're rewarded for damage more than kills, since damage accrues 10x faster. You're rewarded for being alive at the end of a match, not if you contributed to the win even if you died. Where most people would rather be rewarded for their individual contributions or if they were crucial to a win, PGI chose the worst of both worlds where you're only truly rewarded if you individually accrue irrelevant stats AND you win. This only reinforces the worst behaviors instead of encouraging the best and only rewards a single play style.

[Verilligo]

justcallme A S H, on 20 December 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

I can run a Med / Hvy brawler and still crank out upward of 800dmg+ on Polar Assault very regularly.

Some of that comes from knowing the map but most of it comes from just looking at the minimap and paying attention to where the enemies are in relation to you and your team. You need patience essentially and attack/peak/shoot at the right time

Most maps the fighting is done in a 4-5 square area of the map. To learn the little extra useable areas of terrain should take no more than 50 matches on said map to work out.

Sounds like mostly just a matter of practice then. And I agree with patience, it's just a matter of wanting to avoid being OVERLY patient and ending up just not committing until it's far too late. That has gotten me in trouble in the past, committing too early out of concern that not committing will cause the exact kind of "team never pushed" behavior that everyone complains about in QP. At least seeing the crucial moment where I flubbed is pretty easy, but it's not always immediately obvious to me what the better plan would have been.

Wolfy36, on 20 December 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

People standing behind cover not shooting or doing anything kills me a little bit more every time I see it. The only reason you shouldn't be shooting is if you are 1.) Hot 2.) Repositioning

I think a lot of the fresh off the boat players don't get that you can poke around a bend that you control, fire your load, back off, wait for your weapons to cooldown and rinse/repeat the process unlimited times until enemy mechs are dead. If you start taking more damage then you are dishing out at a spot, probably time to reposition.

Polar always gets me though... it's like people don't know there are trenches in the map that lead you to places where you can get within whatever range you need in order to murder the other team.

The problem here is pretty obvious if you're talking about fresh players. There's a lot more "feedback" from taking damage with certain weapons in this game as compared to some others out there. Getting rained on by LRMs is HUGELY disorienting compared to the amount of damage you're actually taking, especially without any skill points in a mech. Conversely, getting drilled out with lasers produces little to no feedback, so newbies get put into the position where taking damage of any kind feels like it could become instantly fatal at any moment. Which... is true, but can also cause sheepishness. They need their time to get adjusted to how impacts roll in this game... which they should already have by the time they start queuing with T1 players. Not always the case, though.

As for players not using the gullies on Polar... they may not even realize they're present, or which ones are deep enough and covered enough that they allow an approach to a target. That's complicated by the fact Polar has really awful geometry issues, simplifying the landscape such that you can see a person and yet still not be able to hit them because the real ground line just hasn't rendered until you reach nearly point blank range.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Kiran Yagami, on 20 December 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

Half of this is PGI's fault for rewarding everyone for all the wrong things. You're rewarded for damage more than kills, since damage accrues 10x faster. You're rewarded for being alive at the end of a match, not if you contributed to the win even if you died. Where most people would rather be rewarded for their individual contributions or if they were crucial to a win, PGI chose the worst of both worlds where you're only truly rewarded if you individually accrue irrelevant stats AND you win. This only reinforces the worst behaviors instead of encouraging the best and only rewards a single play style.

Funny thing is the guys who are truly the very, very best at this game ( top .5%er’s...kudos to you guys) will get their work (damage) in early and often....their k/d’s are astronomical because they kill, mostly win (by contributing greatly) and because they win so much they survive most matches, despite potentialy exposing themselves to fire by shooting. Heck, even when they are in the wrong mech for a map you will still see them pick their spot and put up 500 damage (a bad match for them). They are doing it right.
It’s those who are far, far, far less skilled that play with little aggression, hoping to achieve 300 damage, by mainly surviving till the very end that are the issue here.

[R Valentine]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 20 December 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

Funny thing is the guys who are truly the very, very best at this game ( top .5%er’s...kudos to you guys) will get their work (damage) in early and often....their k/d’s are astronomical because they kill, mostly win (by contributing greatly) and because they win so much they survive most matches, despite potentialy exposing themselves to fire by shooting. Heck, even when they are in the wrong mech for a map you will still see them pick their spot and put up 500 damage (a bad match for them). They are doing it right.
It’s those who are far, far, far less skilled that play with little aggression, hoping to achieve 300 damage, by mainly surviving till the very end that are the issue here.

Sure, if you're just farming noobs, but when playing against people of your own skill level you rarely see damage levels that high. Once you stop running over potatoes and find people who shoot back as good as you shoot them you find yourself relying on teammates more and more. Since this game has such a small player base, you often see great players matched with little Jimmy in his trial mech, so of course the veteran is going to have a huge score when he runs over the non-competition, but that isn't so much an indication of skill as it is an indication of skill gap. Is that what the goal is for MWO? You only get rewarded if you absolutely demolish the new players by running them over, hauling the whole game on your own back? If not, then I find your argument to be superficial. Sure, the best players get inflated numbers in QP, but that shouldn't be how we judge everyone and certainly shouldn't be how everyone is rewarded for in game performance.

[justcallme A S H]

Kiran Yagami, on 20 December 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

Half of this is PGI's fault for rewarding everyone for all the wrong things. You're rewarded for damage more than kills, since damage accrues 10x faster. You're rewarded for being alive at the end of a match, not if you contributed to the win even if you died. Where most people would rather be rewarded for their individual contributions or if they were crucial to a win

Dude, what? I get games like THIS and THIS day in, day out because I am rewarded for aggression and shooting early and shooting often. I'm being rewarded for exactly what I should be doing - Shooting / Killing. If you kill and get the KMDD, well then you get extra rewarded. Plus the extra like UAVs, sticking near your lance/team and so on along the way. Winning also gives you a nice chunk for match score.

I would rather win and DIE than lose and be alive. So thus you are absolutely being rewarded. The problem is people think throwing their mech away, making bad trades to 'see' where the enemy is etc etc, is all helping the team when in many cases it simply is not and they don't actually understand the game.

Me thinks you too do not understand how match score is calculated.

[justcallme A S H]

Verilligo, on 20 December 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

Sounds like mostly just a matter of practice then. And I agree with patience, it's just a matter of wanting to avoid being OVERLY patient and ending up just not committing until it's far too late. That has gotten me in trouble in the past, committing too early out of concern that not committing will cause the exact kind of "team never pushed" behavior that everyone complains about in QP. At least seeing the crucial moment where I flubbed is pretty easy, but it's not always immediately obvious to me what the better plan would have been.

Well that is timing. Brawlers on Polar, you have no choice BUT to wait to committ. There is no way you can impact the battle in the early game other than avoid taking any damage and let people with mid-long range do work.

Then you come in with a near fresh mech vs a bunch of beaten up ones... Torso twist your life away and have a field say cleaning up. I mean before that stage of the game stick your head up now and again to see where the enemies are going - drop a few 'target spotted' from the command wheel etc - All helps the team navigate and adjust for enemy movement.

I mean sometimes what you say is correct in that the whole team just sits still and gets wailed upon... But I find that is not too common thankfully.

[thievingmagpi]

since Ash is in some weird backwoods place I can't find on a map, I never get to catch his stream.. wish I could

[justcallme A S H]

Kiran Yagami, on 20 December 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

Sure, if you're just farming noobs, but when playing against people of your own skill level you rarely see damage levels that high.

Ah against good players they will actually torso twist, spread damage, what you are saying is incorrect. Not uncommon to see 2 Div A level comp players on either team and they will still put up 800dmg+ more often than not.

I mean even just in internal pratices we do having a 600-700dmg game in a 8v8 scenario is extremely common, as I say again, opponents will torso twist etc etc.

IMO you're honestly making blanket statements about something you've got little experience in.

thievingmagpi, on 20 December 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

since Ash is in some weird backwoods place I can't find on a map, I never get to catch his stream.. wish I could

Fear not - Holidays are upon us. Meaning I will only be doing half-days @ work and streaming more in the peak times for the lulz (and salts!).

[R Valentine]

justcallme A S H, on 20 December 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

Ah against good players they will actually torso twist, spread damage, what you are saying is incorrect. Not uncommon to see 2 Div A level comp players on either team and they will still put up 800dmg+ more often than not.

Your enemy twisting has no effect on your personal capacity to do damage. If anything, if has an effect that your teammates are required to inflict enough damage in the proper areas to kill them, so your argument works in my favor. I see plenty of premade teams doing just over 400 damage on each player in 12 - 0 wins.

justcallme A S H, on 20 December 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

I mean even just in internal pratices we do having a 600-700dmg game in a 8v8 scenario is extremely common, as I say again, opponents will torso twist etc etc.

So what? It's just as common not to see 600-700 damage. 50% is extremely common, but low and behold, 50% on the other side is also extremely common. And you'll also see players who did 0-50 damage in competitive 8v8, but not because they aren't good. Because they got focused early. Which again is why the way PGI rewards players is bad. Very, very bad.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Kiran Yagami, on 20 December 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

Sure, if you're just farming noobs, but when playing against people of your own skill level you rarely see damage levels that high. Once you stop running over potatoes and find people who shoot back as good as you shoot them you find yourself relying on teammates more and more. Since this game has such a small player base, you often see great players matched with little Jimmy in his trial mech, so of course the veteran is going to have a huge score when he runs over the non-competition, but that isn't so much an indication of skill as it is an indication of skill gap. Is that what the goal is for MWO? You only get rewarded if you absolutely demolish the new players by running them over, hauling the whole game on your own back? If not, then I find your argument to be superficial. Sure, the best players get inflated numbers in QP, but that shouldn't be how we judge everyone and certainly shouldn't be how everyone is rewarded for in game performance.

Spectate guys like Ash,etc or watch them on Twitch and you will see they do a lot of work to get those numbers in. The QP matchmaker is not great in MWO and the tier system is a joke, but it’s an even playing field in those regards....we all deal with the same thing. They are just plain better....I am not at that level, but I am averaging nearly 500 damage a match (over 100 matches) this season with my new fleas (despite the occasionally match were I do sub-100, cause I got dual HG’ed early from somewhere)....so if I can do that....these guys can do more and they do.

It’s easy to excuse good performance as somehow bogus and great performance as hacking,rigged system, etc. Some guys just “have it” in this game though and admitting that, trying to learn from it and just working on your own performance is the way to perform better and generally have more fun in this game

[justcallme A S H]

Kiran Yagami, on 20 December 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

Your enemy twisting has no effect on your personal capacity to do damage. If anything, if has an effect that your teammates are required to inflict enough damage in the proper areas to kill them, so your argument works in my favor. I see plenty of premade teams doing just over 400 damage on each player in 12 - 0 wins.

You can't have seriously just said that... Enemy twisting has no effect on my damage?

If enemy STARES at me I do LESS damage because I KILL faster. How could you miss that most basic concept of MWO gameplay??????

Kiran Yagami, on 20 December 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

So what? It's just as common not to see 600-700 damage. 50% is extremely common, but low and behold, 50% on the other side is also extremely common. And you'll also see players who did 0-50 damage in competitive 8v8, but not because they aren't good. Because they got focused early. Which again is why the way PGI rewards players is bad. Very, very bad.

Duh. Someone has to deal the damage, someone has to die... But if you due doing 0-50 damage in comp play, you either made a grave mistake or were in a pure cap-control role and thus damage was not expected.

It is becoming quite evidence you fall into the basket of 'don't know what you are talking about' and just rambling to try and prove a point that doesn't exist, well I guess it does in your head, but not reality.

[Leone]

Verilligo, on 20 December 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

That's complicated by the fact Polar has really awful geometry issues, simplifying the landscape such that you can see a person and yet still not be able to hit them because the real ground line just hasn't rendered until you reach nearly point blank range.

Okay, that... definitely wouldn't help. You might wanna tune down the graphics to allow a better draw in. I have that issue, but only further out where it doesn't really impact.

Verilligo, on 20 December 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

Sounds like mostly just a matter of practice then. And I agree with patience, it's just a matter of wanting to avoid being OVERLY patient and ending up just not committing until it's far too late. That has gotten me in trouble in the past, committing too early out of concern that not committing will cause the exact kind of "team never pushed" behavior that everyone complains about in QP. At least seeing the crucial moment where I flubbed is pretty easy, but it's not always immediately obvious to me what the better plan would have been.

Alright, so you've gotten some good advice, and definitely having a better knowledge of the trenches is important, but one thing I've yet to see mentioned as a brawler's role is the flank protection. Now, we know that a good 500m range mech'll allow for much more utility and that nascaring is a thing, but don't forget...

As a dedicated brawling mech you should be best suited to punishing anyone for taking blind corners and closing on the team. Try to suss out the general shape of the enemy advance and place yourself to blunt it. Polar highlands is a rough one, cus some of the best blind corners aren't too close to good coverage to retreat to but you should take the time to figure out where your team is and where they're weak. Figure out where the enemy'll be coming from, and wait for em. As a brawler, I feel I'm doing my best when I guard or expand the flanks, working on keeping the enemy contained or busting my team out of an encirclement.

Brawlers are ambush predators.

Edit: oh and @op, whilst I approve of the bribery attempt, I would lead with that. If someone took the trouble to read your whole post, I'd wager they were already looking to learn something.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 20 December 2018 - 03:16 PM.

[Athom83]

Had a player like that the other day. He ran and hid in his Marauder the entire match on Polar HIghlands, while 10 of us were stuck in with the enemy fighting (the last guy was a light trying to cover the lone wanderer not knowing he was hiding on purpose). His reasons was, and I quote, "I knew the team wouldn't win anyway so why bother fight?". He went to one of the research stations and powered down when he was the last alive (besides the one light who is desperately fighting a delaying action). He wasn't a "bad" pilot either, he was pretty skilled and when the enemy eventually found him (after we gave his spot up) he killed 2 of the remaining 4 enemies. The other two were heavily damaged, with one of them missing most of their weapons. If he was in the fight with us it definitely would have been a win.

Edited by Athom83, 20 December 2018 - 03:21 PM.

[Knuckles OTool]

While I totally agree with what is said about shooting people kills them, the team that wins in QP makes more favorable trades. With 2 mediocre teams on opposite sides of cover the team that keeps poking into the enemy firing line is usually the team that loses. If both sides are semi-camping the guys that keep exposing themselves to fire on one enemy while getting fired at by three get beat to hell and die miserably.

Yeah, better players do flank and get shots off without taking much damage or even getting hits landed on them and this wins trades. The obvious move in these oddball standoffs is to push a flank in force but good luck always getting people to move with you or not shoot you in the back when you do advance.

Good players and people that play so damn much have this stuff as second nature while knowing the maps but they seem to forget a lot of people that play video games only do so for a few hours a week and often play different games in between. There seems to be a lot of hate from the people that seem to live in MWO vs people that have more normal schedules. The "brown sea" was dubbed that by the people that think 30 hours a week in MWO is a light week and get irritated by the casual video game crowd. Contempt versus these casuals is what makes up half the posts on this forum and makes them last for pages of back and forth instead of simple pointers and comments.

[Dee Eight]

The full motto for the 80th Tank Division is "Do something, even if it is wrong." In other words... making a decision, even a wrong decision, is better than just sitting around not making any decision.

Edited by Dee Eight, 20 December 2018 - 04:29 PM.