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How To Deal With "op" Mechs/weapons (Guide)

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#1 admiralbenbow123

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 09:23 AM

While reading through forums I have seen many comments like: "this mech is super OP", "this weapon combo is so powerful", "I keep getting killed by this and that, PGI pls nerf" etc. So, I decided to make a guide where I`ll tell you how to deal with all of those "OP" mechs and weapons/weapon combos.
Here are some of them:

LRMs and LRM boats
Spoiler


Piranhas
Spoiler


2x Heavy gauss
Spoiler


I hope this guide will help you and wish you good luck and lots of fun on the battlefield!Posted Image
-admiralbenbow123

Note: I will update this guide as new "OP" mechs and weapon combos appear. If you have any suggestions, feel free to post them below.

Edited by admiralbenbow123, 09 February 2019 - 06:48 AM.


#2 Tesunie

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:08 AM

View Postadmiralbenbow123, on 01 January 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

While reading through forums I have seen many comments like: "this mech is super OP", "this weapon combo is so powerful", "I keep getting killed by this and that, PGI pls nerf" etc. So, I decided to make a guide where I`ll tell you how to deal with all of those "OP" mechs and weapons/weapon combos.
Here are some of them:

LRMs and LRM boats
Spoiler


Piranhas
Spoiler


2x Heavy gauss
Spoiler


I hope this guide will help you and wish you good luck and lots of fun on the battlefield!Posted Image
-admiralbenbow123

Note: I will update this guide as new "OP" mechs and weapon combos appear. If you have any suggestions, feel free to post them below.


On note of the Piranha, I've literally (and I have witnesses) had one get behind me for but a moment, I tried to twist and track, and then I was dead in a single hit to my back, component completely destroyed. Then again, when it was running with maxed out energy hard points with a mix of ER SL and ER micro (or maybe micro pulse, wasn't sure)... That is a rather insane amount of damage with short duration weapons...

Then the Piranha also is super tiny and seems to shrug off full shots of damage (I suspect but can't confirm nor deny a possible hit box issue, similar to the Spider's "belly button" of the past), combined with it's ability to face hug any mech larger then itself and avoid being able to be shot at by it's victim (I've had a Commando face hug my Panther once, and I couldn't bend over enough to shoot it with my torso mounted MRM system, of course the arm weapon could but not all mechs have arm hardpoints (Champion), so...) not to mention the team damage your allies (if they notice you in trouble Solo dropping) will deal to you to remove said small thing from your legs...

The Piranha is essentially becoming a "perfect storm" of several factors (size, speed, ability to boat weapons, lighter clan tech so it can boat many weapons). The slight mobility adjustment helped, but it's still "the best light if not the best mech in the game*", which is kinda frightening...

*"Best mech in game" is relative to understanding and utilizing it's strength. It's harder to use because of it's lower health and faster speed, and of course there will be people who can't effectively use it.



I would also like to make note, I'm not trying to say the Piranha is OP, but it's certainly got the qualifications to be more powerful than it probably should be.

#3 KhanBhacKeD

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:20 AM

Just to fix an error in your text : Lrm min range is 180, and 130 for ATMs.

#4 Tesunie

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:37 AM

View PostKhanBhacKeD, on 06 January 2019 - 07:20 AM, said:

Just to fix an error in your text : Lrm min range is 180, and 130 for ATMs.


120m for ATMs. Posted Image

#5 admiralbenbow123

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:17 AM

View PostKhanBhacKeD, on 06 January 2019 - 07:20 AM, said:

Just to fix an error in your text : Lrm min range is 180, and 130 for ATMs.


Thanks, I'll fix it now.

#6 Y E O N N E

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:10 PM

View PostTesunie, on 06 January 2019 - 07:08 AM, said:

I would also like to make note, I'm not trying to say the Piranha is OP, but it's certainly got the qualifications to be more powerful than it probably should be.


Or exactly as powerful as it needs to be.

#7 justcallme A S H

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 12:32 AM

View PostY E O N N E, on 06 January 2019 - 11:10 PM, said:


Or exactly as powerful as it needs to be.


This.

Given it is so easily one-shottable by a half dozen weapon systems, it's not OP.

OP was the KDK3 / Quad UAC10.

The PIR simply catches people unaware. Improve map awareness and that of enemy team, rare have a PIR issue.

#8 admiralbenbow123

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 01:28 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 07 January 2019 - 12:32 AM, said:


This.

Given it is so easily one-shottable by a half dozen weapon systems, it's not OP.

OP was the KDK3 / Quad UAC10.

The PIR simply catches people unaware. Improve map awareness and that of enemy team, rare have a PIR issue.


I put "OP" in quotes intentionally. The whole point of this guide is that the mechs/weapons that are listed here are not really as OP as people think.
Also, a KDK-3 with 4 UAC10s is still quite powerful. I run it myself.

Edited by admiralbenbow123, 07 January 2019 - 01:57 AM.


#9 justcallme A S H

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 02:12 AM

All good - I wasn't referring to your post.

#10 Tesunie

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:35 AM

View PostY E O N N E, on 06 January 2019 - 11:10 PM, said:


Or exactly as powerful as it needs to be.


Q: Which would you rather shoot at, if you had to choose and face your back willing to the other: A Piranha or an assault? Considering I've created a Piranha build that can two shot a stock Atlas from the back (which typically has more armor on it's back than most players place on their back)... That has the potential of being a little too strong when compared to any other light mech I can recall in the game. Thus is has the potential of being a little stronger than it should be, as there are many assault mechs that I would willingly turn my back to rather than have a Piranha in my back, as they can't kill me as quickly as most Piranhas can (from my experience). The build in question here is actually now the MG build, but the 5 ERSL and 10 ER Micro Laser build. It can produce such damage that, if aiming for a side torso, a solid hit on the side torso from the back for any mech under 60 tons (65 starts to become debatable based upon rear armor values) is instantly destroyed. (Shoot the back of the Catapult on Tourmaline with that build, and it's side torso turns cherry red.) Even shooting the front, it can drop the Stock Awesome on Tourmaline in three shots to the CT.
(The build: AA:D4:B0|Ze|kBp@0|l^|l^|LC|LC|LC|LC|LC|kBq@0|l^|l^|LC|LC|LC|LC|LC|kBr<0|kBs<0|kBt@0|l^u@0v>0w604040 )



I also suspect that the Piranha may have some problems with hit's hitboxes. I've seen many shots that should "take it out in one hit" not even turn it's armor yellow (and yet the shot registered as a hit, turned the reticle red, etc). I've used a SSRM mech against a Piranha... failed to pierce it's armor values, and had said Piranha kill my Black Lanner. (I had SSRMs and lasers on.) If it does have some problem with it's hit boxes, than that isn't necessarily the mech being "powerful", it's a problem with it's hit box meshes. Much like the Spider wasn't exactly OP (though in this relation, it didn't have as much punch as the Piranha), but that hole in it's belly button area let it be able to absorb punishing amounts of firepower. (PS: Many "top tier" players said the Spider was "easy" to take down and had "no problems" with it's hit boxes back then too... and you "just need to hit it to kill them, easy to do"... does this not sound familiar to what is happening now?)


I am only presenting the possibility that these factors, combined together, is making the Piranha appear more powerful than it probably is. I even propose that the Piranha may be a tad (not crazy out of there) more powerful than it should be, especially when compared to other light mechs, or even other 20 ton mechs.

As mentioned, it might be able to carry a little too much firepower, for it's weight. I can't recall any other light mech that can do what the Piranha can do. If everyone thinks the Piranha is "exactly as powerful as it needs to be", than all the other light mechs may need to get a second look into what they are capable of doing.

#11 tutzdes

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 03:26 PM

View PostTesunie, on 07 January 2019 - 07:35 AM, said:

I can't recall any other light mech that can do what the Piranha can do. If everyone thinks the Piranha is "exactly as powerful as it needs to be", than all the other light mechs may need to get a second look into what they are capable of doing.

Wolfhounds can (Grinner), Urbies (K9), Fleas (20, 17), some others and yes, the majority of other light mechs needs a buff or two to be good. By good I mean being able to have impact on the outcome of the match comparable to that of good Assaults, Heavies and Mediums.

#12 Tesunie

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 04:55 PM

View Posttutzdes, on 08 January 2019 - 03:26 PM, said:

Wolfhounds can (Grinner), Urbies (K9), Fleas (20, 17), some others and yes, the majority of other light mechs needs a buff or two to be good. By good I mean being able to have impact on the outcome of the match comparable to that of good Assaults, Heavies and Mediums.


I am not going argue on the concept that many lights could use a buff... Many of them certainly can use some attention.

Out of the mechs you've listed, I don't know of any that can do what I see the Piranha does. I've gotten a Piranha build that can deal a 50+ point alpha with low duration/cooldown lasers (Micro and SL). I don't know of any Wolfhound, Urbanmech or Flea that can get close to that, at the same speeds as the Piranha. The MG builds the Piranha can bring are concerning, but they can be situational. The Flea can compare with the Mist Lynx in terms of energy and ballistic hardpoints.

My biggest concern with the Piranha is the potential (I don't know if it's there or not) hit box problem. I'm always told "Piranha's aren't an issue, just shoot them and they die", yet I've unloaded ungodly amounts of shots on some Piranha's only to have them brush it off and kill me. (EX: They ran into a building and came to a stop, so I shot them... and they survived with barely a scratch on them somehow) I will make mention, I've even tried SSRMs against them, and they still managed to kill me despite the firepower I unloaded into them. So it feels like there may be some issue with their hit box meshes...?

So that leads to two concerns, one big and one moderate, that I have with the Piranha in it's current state: Hit boxes; number of hard points (which is cannon and not PGI inflation). As we all know, boating a single weapon type tends to lead to more powerful builds within that role. GH tries to curb the worst offenders while trying to permit freedom of choice. Since the unlocking of Micros and Smalls/Mediums (which I do strongly agree needed to happen), the energy Piranha has now started to go into a questionable state of balance. (Not much can be done about MG boating, as you can't GH them nor limit the number that can fire and still be fair. Not to mention, MGs in packs of 4 to even 6 aren't game breaking so you don't want to mess overall balance, not to mention it's less effectiveness against armor and need for ammo...)

As mentioned, I'm not going to say the Piranha is OP, but it might be a tad more powerful than a 20 ton mech ought to be. I mention it more as a potential, than a definitive.

#13 admiralbenbow123

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 04:59 AM

View PostTesunie, on 08 January 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:


I am not going argue on the concept that many lights could use a buff... Many of them certainly can use some attention.

Out of the mechs you've listed, I don't know of any that can do what I see the Piranha does. I've gotten a Piranha build that can deal a 50+ point alpha with low duration/cooldown lasers (Micro and SL). I don't know of any Wolfhound, Urbanmech or Flea that can get close to that, at the same speeds as the Piranha. The MG builds the Piranha can bring are concerning, but they can be situational. The Flea can compare with the Mist Lynx in terms of energy and ballistic hardpoints.

My biggest concern with the Piranha is the potential (I don't know if it's there or not) hit box problem. I'm always told &quot;Piranha's aren't an issue, just shoot them and they die&quot;, yet I've unloaded ungodly amounts of shots on some Piranha's only to have them brush it off and kill me. (EX: They ran into a building and came to a stop, so I shot them... and they survived with barely a scratch on them somehow) I will make mention, I've even tried SSRMs against them, and they still managed to kill me despite the firepower I unloaded into them. So it feels like there may be some issue with their hit box meshes...?

So that leads to two concerns, one big and one moderate, that I have with the Piranha in it's current state: Hit boxes; number of hard points (which is cannon and not PGI inflation). As we all know, boating a single weapon type tends to lead to more powerful builds within that role. GH tries to curb the worst offenders while trying to permit freedom of choice. Since the unlocking of Micros and Smalls/Mediums (which I do strongly agree needed to happen), the energy Piranha has now started to go into a questionable state of balance. (Not much can be done about MG boating, as you can't GH them nor limit the number that can fire and still be fair. Not to mention, MGs in packs of 4 to even 6 aren't game breaking so you don't want to mess overall balance, not to mention it's less effectiveness against armor and need for ammo...)

As mentioned, I'm not going to say the Piranha is OP, but it might be a tad more powerful than a 20 ton mech ought to be. I mention it more as a potential, than a definitive.


You are probably having internet coonection issues, which is probably why some hits on the piranha don't register. I've had multiple situations where I could kill a piranha with a well-placed shot from a 2-3 PPCs (ER or Snub-nosed) and/or an AC20, although I do remember a situation where I shot 6 SRM6s at a piranha while it was standing still and it didn't register, but then again, I was on a N. American server where my ping is a little high.

#14 Tesunie

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 08:04 AM

View Postadmiralbenbow123, on 09 January 2019 - 04:59 AM, said:

You are probably having internet coonection issues, which is probably why some hits on the piranha don't register. I've had multiple situations where I could kill a piranha with a well-placed shot from a 2-3 PPCs (ER or Snub-nosed) and/or an AC20, although I do remember a situation where I shot 6 SRM6s at a piranha while it was standing still and it didn't register, but then again, I was on a N. American server where my ping is a little high.


Thing is, I recall the same remarks about the spider (which strangely enough, I didn't have any problems with back when it had a "belly button hole" in it's hit box mesh). Since my new computer in December, I now hit and deal damage where I hit, except for on Piranhas.

I wont deny it could still be some form of connection issue. That's always a possibility. But SSRMs should bypass a connection issue as long as the server says they have a lock and have fired, and I couldn't even get those to apparently kill nor significantly damage a Piranha. To be honest, I've given up trying to kill Piranhas at this point. I'll shoot at them, but I don't expect to kill them anymore. I think I've only managed to kill one off, and I did it in my Raven with 2 LLs and 2 ERMLs, which are not prime weapons to kill said Piranha off...

I will comment though, I've spectated enough other people who shoot it and slam it with hits that actually rip into it... (I've also seen people hit it on my screen and deal no damage despite reticle turning red.) Hence, I grant a possibility of some issue with the Piranha, leading it to feeling more powerful than it probably should be. Hard point boating is a moderate issue compared to if there actually is an issue with the hit box meshes... and if that hit box issue is based upon "connection issues", than it's not the mech...

#15 LeucippusK

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 09:11 AM

Great post...

#16 admiralbenbow123

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 09:35 AM

View PostLeucippusK, on 09 January 2019 - 09:11 AM, said:

Great post...


Thanks!

#17 Damnedtroll

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 04:44 PM

Against the Piranha, just put more than 2 pts of armor in your back... if you have armor and you are active... he can circle you a lot before coring you. Don't be lone, spot the guy with streak and stay with him if you are scared, lol.

Bough the Cypher and while doing great scores with it, lots of game are a suicide run without any hope. Just need someone to hurl you a big bore ac or a good pulse zap and you are done for. Streak are so painfull, you just lose a couple of location in an instant.

Sometime you are thinking that you will single out a lone assault and it turn out that he have more than 8 pts of armor on his back torsos and he turn and cut you in half with a lb20x shot.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 19 January 2019 - 04:45 PM.


#18 Void Angel

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 06:57 PM

View Postadmiralbenbow123, on 09 January 2019 - 04:59 AM, said:

You are probably having internet coonection issues, which is probably why some hits on the piranha don't register. I've had multiple situations where I could kill a piranha with a well-placed shot from a 2-3 PPCs (ER or Snub-nosed) and/or an AC20, although I do remember a situation where I shot 6 SRM6s at a piranha while it was standing still and it didn't register, but then again, I was on a N. American server where my ping is a little high.

View PostTesunie, on 09 January 2019 - 08:04 AM, said:


Thing is, I recall the same remarks about the spider (which strangely enough, I didn't have any problems with back when it had a "belly button hole" in it's hit box mesh). Since my new computer in December, I now hit and deal damage where I hit, except for on Piranhas.

I wont deny it could still be some form of connection issue. That's always a possibility. But SSRMs should bypass a connection issue as long as the server says they have a lock and have fired, and I couldn't even get those to apparently kill nor significantly damage a Piranha. To be honest, I've given up trying to kill Piranhas at this point. I'll shoot at them, but I don't expect to kill them anymore. I think I've only managed to kill one off, and I did it in my Raven with 2 LLs and 2 ERMLs, which are not prime weapons to kill said Piranha off...

I will comment though, I've spectated enough other people who shoot it and slam it with hits that actually rip into it... (I've also seen people hit it on my screen and deal no damage despite reticle turning red.) Hence, I grant a possibility of some issue with the Piranha, leading it to feeling more powerful than it probably should be. Hard point boating is a moderate issue compared to if there actually is an issue with the hit box meshes... and if that hit box issue is based upon "connection issues", than it's not the mech...

Two things I feel should be pointed out here (pardon the late response; missed the initial exchange.) First, host-state rewind should account for packet loss and the like; that's literally the point of HSW, and the netcode in general. That doesn't mean it's happening, mind you, but hey.

Second, it is very important in situations like this to remember something important about host-state rewind - it doesn't propagate to spectation. More precisely, his host-state rewind doesn't propagate. What I mean by this is that if I die in a pyre of shame at the start of the match and watch you for the match, what you see will be off from what I see. I've seen everything from unfair criticism to accusations of cheating in matches due to people not understanding that mechanic.

#19 Void Angel

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 11:03 PM

PS: HSW may not propagate to spectation at all, but I haven't done any testing to try and figure that out. =)

#20 Tesunie

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 11:14 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 19 January 2019 - 11:03 PM, said:

PS: HSW may not propagate to spectation at all, but I haven't done any testing to try and figure that out. =)


Last I knew, HSR does not function for spectators, only for the live player.





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