50 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Anjian, on 21 January 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

No. The whole ECM thing still does not make sense to me, since ECM modules come separately and is meant to "stealth". Furthermore ECM requires that you would need to have arrays. ECM can never be too far advanced of ECCM because both are in lockstep of each other. If you understand how ECM works, you will understand how ECCM would work. And besides have you heard of what is called an ARM? Anti-Radiation Missile. You fire that from an aircraft and what it does is home in on the source of ECM, which is producing a lot of radio waves.

As for the lightness of the Atlas, that's true. Does not make sense it should be 100 tons. Even if we assume that the armor and the skeleon is non metallic, being carbon based.

ECM doesnt grant stealth in battletech though. PGI made that up.

You cant justify a battletech argument based on PGI's incorrect made up nonsense.

In battletech all units have an incorporated basic stealth package thats good enough to protect them from being targeted at very long range. They dont need ECM for that. Again its why mechs are deployed onto planets instead of just being able to surgical strike from orbit. Otherwise you wouldnt even need mechs. You could just launch cruise missiles from orbit and call it a day.

Edited by Khobai, 22 January 2019 - 04:26 PM.

[Anjian]

Khobai, on 22 January 2019 - 04:22 PM, said:

ECM doesnt grant stealth in battletech though. PGI made that up.

You cant justify a battletech argument based on PGI's incorrect made up nonsense.

In battletech all units have an incorporated basic stealth package thats good enough to protect them from being targeted at very long range. They dont need ECM for that. Again its why mechs are deployed onto planets instead of just being able to surgical strike from orbit. Otherwise you wouldnt even need mechs. You could just launch cruise missiles from orbit and call it a day.

That's complete nonsense. ECM or "stealth" packages does not stop you from being targeted via eyeball or optical or thermal in direct line of sight. Which means if you are directly visible at 1000 meters you should be hit at 1000 meters. It does not justify 250 meter cannon ranges or 175 meter machine gun ranges.

Another piece of nonsense is that passive radar stealth happens to be based on physical design meant to deflect radar waves away from its origin. This means highly angular or sloped surfaces. They simply don't stand up straight with vertical, curved or rounded surfaces.

[Khobai]

it does in battletech

weve already established that battletech and real life have nothing in common

so yes battletech would appear complete nonsense if you try to compare it to real life

which is why you shouldnt do that



battletech jumpships use friggin solar power to jump dozens of lightyears... considering how ridiculous that is I dont think mechs having the ability to stealth themselves is much of a stretch. because heres the thing about science fiction: ITS FICTIONAL.

Edited by Khobai, 22 January 2019 - 06:27 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 22 January 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

heres the thing about science fiction: ITS FICTIONAL.

It's fiction built on science, not science built on fiction. The latter is called fantasy.

[Anjian]

Khobai, on 22 January 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

it does in battletech

weve already established that battletech and real life have nothing in common

so yes battletech would appear complete nonsense if you try to compare it to real life

which is why you shouldnt do that



battletech jumpships use friggin solar power to jump dozens of lightyears... considering how ridiculous that is I dont think mechs having the ability to stealth themselves is much of a stretch. because heres the thing about science fiction: ITS FICTIONAL.

Yes but game mechanics does not express that properly in a way that is cohesive, can be used to balance mechs, or influence play, rather than being used as a background exposition. .

If you want to see how stealth mechanics are better expressed in a game you can check World of Tanks or World of Warships.

A ship has a built in signature radius, which means you or some teammate have to be in within this distance to detect the ship. If the ship is visible by a teammate, it is visible to all the team regardless of distance. A small ship like a destroyer can have a 7km signature radius, while a battleship might have 16km. Individual ships have different signature radius which can be modified by skills and camouflage The signature radius can be used by the developers to balance the ship.

There is also the bloom radius. Once you fire your weapons, your signature radius is greatly expanded for a moment, allowing you to be detected where you normally won't.

Stealth methods are countered by radar, hydro-acoustic and by planes. If the anti-stealth measure is used, you have a momentary window which you can target the low observable enemy, as these items are consumables.

By managing these factors, they make the "small guy" viable, and these factors can be adjusted if something is overpowered or underpowered. It adds a deep layer of strategic and tactical complexity to the game, making you "think" and "plan", in addition to making scouting viable.

If its a mech game stealth would be incorporated like armor modules. If I was using stealth armor, I would be sacrificing AP, HEAT, energy damage resistance, and so on. That forces people to pick their armor types, and allow for content where you have different armors with varied resistances, stealth factors and movement-weight factors. Mechs can be quirked along these lines as well.

Of course such ideas can't be back fitted into the Battletech IP as its already there, and could not foresee the evolution of game mechanics further on, its better expressed in a new game design from the bottom up.

Edited by Anjian, 22 January 2019 - 07:30 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Angel of Annihilation, on 22 January 2019 - 04:05 PM, said:

Actually if you want to let the small details bother you, there are a million and one things that are wrong with Battletech/Mechwarrior.

1. An M1 Abrams tank weighs nearly 70 tons. Standing on it end would make it about 8 meters tall and 2 meters wide or about half the bulk of a 70 ton battlemech in game.

2. Weapon ranges are hilariously short. Tanks today can engage and kill targets out to 2000 meters with guns and 3500m with missiles, yet in the BT universe, not much can hit past 1000m.

3. The bigger then gun the shorter the range. In real life a LMG can engage out to around 1000 meters, while a HMG can engage out to 2500 meters. In game, LMGs have like twice the range of HMGs. Same goes for cannons. In real life the bigger cannons have much longer ranges than smaller ones but in Battletech and AC/20, the biggest cannon of all, has the shortest range.

I could go on but you get the point. As much as I love Battletech and Mechwarrior, it is saddled with the most absurdly ridiculous rules of about any game system I have ever played.

Oh Blake should grant me calm in the face of repeating stupid arguments

Its seems to be a horrible time were repeating wrong arguments become truth just by repeat them ever and ever again.

SO IN LARGE BOLD LETTERS
RANGE IN BT IS BASED ON THE SIZE OF YOUR F*****G TABLE

Got it?
Range is not put into stone only because a poor author let his mary sue outcry oh noes 750m for a laser. When he would have played BattleForce it would have been 4500m - wait what does this guy says? 4,5km is an adequate range for a laser in atmosphere.
Other game other scale - BattleSpace was mentioned also the RPG has different ranges.

Ergo - ranges in TT are chosen so that you can have nice miniatures and don't need a gym for playing a single round. Same is also true for Mechwarrior - you can have either realistic ranges and ER weapons are king or mouse point and klick with different combat roles, given the speed of the Mechs.
Of course you can scale the speed of those Mechs as well.... but most of us would be vomiting after only 1minute in a locust.... running 600kph.

And about weapon size? Yeah a AC20 is the biggest cannon, but does this means biggest caliber? Nope.
damage as well as range is an abstract in TT - its again the fail of the authors to have a better concept.

it should be possible that a AC20 deals less damage given its nature - for example the Pontiac 100 - (thing has a caliber of anything between 60 and 120mm based on the author) - say we take a typical 2.25" (57mm) caliber and a single AC 20 round are 200kg - so we are looking at ~40rounds per shot. So to deal damage the whole burst of 40 rounds need to hit a target in a close grouping - of course you can hit it all over the square but that might not really damage the armor or the Mech/Tank at all.

and your Abrams, well yes this is the size of a 70t Mech, only that a 25t BT Tank might is a fair match of the M1A2.... anything bigger is overkill

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 January 2019 - 05:05 AM.

[Athom83]

justcallme A S H, on 20 January 2019 - 08:46 PM, said:

It's not as if you're running around with a AC20, 3SRM6 and 4ML on a Commando...

Not with THAT attitude!

[Gaussfather]

I always enjoy forum threads meander around and past a topic... I left and came back a week later and all kinds of side discussions going on lol.

Anyway, the thing about the "critical slots" is that it somehow is supposed to represent free volume (or how could armor or endo use it), and its probably a bigger limiter on many loadouts than tonnage. It has such a huge influence in how you build your mechs but seems to have had the least thought in terms of its game mechanics. I like the mechlab and use of the critical slots/tonnage makes building designs very easy and slots provide some trade-offs for using endo & different armor types.

I mean my suspension of disbelief is total in this game as many commenters have pointed out all the ridiculous things that make it pure fantasy. Most of them I can live with but it seems like an easy improvement could be made for "critical slots' that would just open up new fresh builds for a majority of the mechs.

Edited by Gaussfather, 23 January 2019 - 01:09 PM.

[Koniving]

Funzo, on 21 January 2019 - 08:09 PM, said:

There was one case of a remotely piloted Battlemech.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gestalt
The pilot could control the mech with the neural interface helmet while outside the mech.

Worth noting that under EI Implants... any Clanner that has them is also able to do this, without needing the helmet.
The condition of having to be in extremely close proximity, though, makes one question "would it not be safer to remain in the mech"?

Don't have enough time to see if it is here.
http://www.sarna.net...nhanced_Imaging
But under the 1st Somerset Strikers book (which I'll screenshot and add back here later) it certainly is.

[thievingmagpi]

in order to make mechs work in any fashion in my brain, I've always pictured them much smaller than they seem to be typically portrayed. In my mind, something like a commando is basically human size and the largest mechs are maybe as tall as a small house.

my first experience with "mechs" was exo squad when I was like 6 years old so that's always imprinted on me.

Like this is basically a Griffin in my mind.



(not my fingers)

Edited by thievingmagpi, 23 January 2019 - 01:45 PM.

[Anjian]

thievingmagpi, on 23 January 2019 - 01:31 PM, said:

in order to make mechs work in any fashion in my brain, I've always pictured them much smaller than they seem to be typically portrayed. In my mind, something like a commando is basically human size and the largest mechs are maybe as tall as a small house.

my first experience with "mechs" was exo squad when I was like 6 years old so that's always imprinted on me.

Like this is basically a Griffin in my mind.



(not my fingers)

Based on this, Bioware's Anthem would be considered a mech game.