12 replies to this topic

[m]

Hello everyone

I am making this thread to gauge curiosity on whether most would be intrigued by this idea, and if so, I also made a poll ( LINK ).

So what I mean by "Faction Play Dropship Weight Allotment Slots" is that when most of us go into Faction Play we typically bring doubles, triples, and in some cases 4 types of the same mech or of the same mech tonnage.

To bring everyone up to speed, when playing clan you have a dropship tonnage weight cap limit of 250 and Inner Sphere of 245. This encourages many to use 2-4 mechs of the same weight and gameplay can become boring and redundant, even for myself as I have done the same where I have used duplicates.


Now to my suggestion;

If onboard the dropship there was a type of allotment slot, like a single slot space for a 40/45/50/60/etc/etc ton mech, so when a single 40 ton mech is placed onboard the dropship in a dropdeck that slot can no longer be used. This would encourage us to use, with the same tonnage limit as 245 and 250, 1 mech of one weight and most drops and games would be more entertaining.

In simpler terms, if I decide to take a Dire Wolf which is 100 tons, I cannot take a Kodiak or another Dire Wolf because the 100 ton slot is being used.



Thanks everyone. Can't wait to hear your thoughts below.

Edited by m, 25 January 2019 - 02:02 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

You wanna force people into mech weight slots? Locking them in and removing all creativity/options?

No thanks.

And as for people bringing 4 of the same mech? I can't say I've ever seen that to any consistent level at all and I e played 1,000s of FP matches. Sounds largely made up

Edited by justcallme A S H, 25 January 2019 - 12:57 PM.

[Verilligo]

Nobody holds anyone at gunpoint to bring dupes. They're bringing dupes because they need to do a thing and there's nothing else that does that thing as well. Forcing them to vary tonnage brackets won't change that, it just means they'll pick a different set of options time after time. Is it really variety if you go from having two Warhammers every match to having a Warhammer and an X every match?

[m]

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

You wanna force people into mech weight slots?

Yeah. Seems like an interesting concept.

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

Locking them in and removing all creativity/options?

No. To ask them to be creative. I think you have it kinda backwards ASH.

Same can be said of asking someone to paint a mural with more than 1 type of paint but that person chooses just 1 because of the ease of use because they like that one paint. There's no challenge and seems a bit primitive.

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

No thanks.

Alright. Pleasure talking to you.

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

And as for people bringing 4 of the same mech?

Yeah it's happened since the beginning of Faction Play/Community Warfare

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

I can't say I've ever seen that to any consistent level at all and I e played 1,000s of FP matches. Sounds largely made up

You mean you've never played or went against a stormcrow dropdeck? Really?? That was the meta for a long time and I assure you it's not made up.

Verilligo, on 25 January 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

Nobody holds anyone at gunpoint to bring dupes.

Of course not.

Verilligo, on 25 January 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

They're bringing dupes because they need to do a thing and there's nothing else that does that thing as well.

Completely agree. I've done the same though, and picking the same pair of mechs gets b o r i n g. Done it several times. I feel this would encourage a challenge to everyone.

Verilligo, on 25 January 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

Forcing them to vary tonnage brackets won't change that, it just means they'll pick a different set of options time after time.

The game will never change. That's the truth. Players will still do their thing, it'll just be done in a less consistent manner...which I feel is great. It encourages varying gameplay for everyone.

Verilligo, on 25 January 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

Is it really variety if you go from having two Warhammers every match to having a Warhammer and an X every match?

I think so. We have plenty of mechs today to put something like this in place. Also a 55 ton mech is different than a 50 or a 60 ton mech (hitboxes, torso-twists, speed, etc).



And lastly, I know no one likes change of any kind. But there is a test server and this would be a great thing to test.

[justcallme A S H]

m, on 25 January 2019 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yeah. Seems like an interesting concept.

No it's not. It's a new restriction that would force people to play in a particular way. That would lead to a mass exodus of population.

m, on 25 January 2019 - 01:58 PM, said:

No. To ask them to be creative. I think you have it kinda backwards ASH.

What? Right now you can drop 90 / 90 / 40 / 40 for instance or 65 / 65 / 60 / 35-55... Could even do 90 / 70 / 50 / 30-45

How is that not creative? What you are suggesting is actively stifling creativity. If you can't see or understand that then it's just ignorance for the sake of trying to back this... Suggestion.

m, on 25 January 2019 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yeah it's happened since the beginning of Faction Play/Community Warfare

If someone wants to do that, then let them. It's far from the norm/regular. Show me a single game where 3-4 players have brought the same 4 mechs. You will never find it or be able to provide it. Further invalidating this incorrect statement.

m, on 25 January 2019 - 01:58 PM, said:

Completely agree. I've done the same though, and picking the same pair of mechs gets b o r i n g. Done it several times. I feel this would encourage a challenge to everyone.

So pick a different one? You are free and able to change it. If you find it boring then it is your problem and your problem alone. No one is forcing you to do it.

m, on 25 January 2019 - 01:58 PM, said:

And lastly, I know no one likes change of any kind. But there is a test server and this would be a great thing to test.

LOL. Thankfully we will never have to endure a PTS with this idea in it.

[m]

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 05:32 PM, said:

Right now you can drop 90 / 90 / 40 / 40 for instance or 65 / 65 / 60 / 35-55... Could even do 90 / 70 / 50 / 30-45

I am willing to bet that the majority of people playing do not have a drop deck with a variety of tonnage. Also when you type in "90 / 90 / 40 / 40" you do realize that those mechs are more than likely duplicates 'mechs that people cling to?

Should also mention that 90+90+40+40 = 260. Clearly you meant Tonnage A / Tonnage A / Tonnage B / Tonnage B. No need to have someone come in here and berate you.

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 05:32 PM, said:

What you are suggesting is actively stifling creativity. If you can't see or understand that then it's just ignorance for the sake of trying to back this... Suggestion.

Far from it. A user has to choose from another weight class when building a deck after one has been used. Simple as that. If they don't have a mech from another weight class then they have to purchase one they clearly never used before or use a trial. It encourages creativity, a new experience, and taking people out of their comfort zone and offering them a challenge.

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 05:32 PM, said:

If someone wants to do that, then let them. It's far from the norm/regular. Show me a single game where 3-4 players have brought the same 4 mechs. You will never find it or be able to provide it. Further invalidating this incorrect statement.

Sure that'd be great. I know it's far from normal that's why I suggested it. Well I bet if I looked, gameplay could be found. There is youtube after all...and I am not about to prove that people use duplicates. It's known and I have even done it.

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 05:32 PM, said:

So pick a different one? You are free and able to change it. If you find it boring then it is your problem and your problem alone. No one is forcing you to do it.

My dropdeck has been changed several times over just to be different than the person next to me. You see, the notion of boredom will eventually hit you no matter what in Faction Play, especially when you see the same dropdecks on the battlefield over and over again with the same hitboxes in Faction Play. The weight limits deem it so. So what PGI has done in the past was change the weight limits for different reasons, and it had side-effects. But instead of changing the weight limits over and over again, I suggest sticking to weight slots on the dropship.

You know, a long time ago in the past I had suggested to stick to Class slots on the dropship and a total removal of the weight limit, which I really wanted to initially suggest (again), but I remember that thread got knocked down quickly by people I don't even see anymore. Then ironically, 'duplicate' threads popped up over time...

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 05:32 PM, said:

LOL. Thankfully we will never have to endure a PTS with this idea in it.

Well there is a vote at the top of the thread and thankfully people have freedom of choice.

Edited by m, 25 January 2019 - 06:57 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

This sounds like it would need programming work done. Paul has said basically no new systems only basic changes to what we have now.

So good or bad its not going to happen.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 25 January 2019 - 07:26 PM.

[Davegt27]

maybe someone from net BattleTech can post up there thoughts

I can see how a lot of people would not like this idea

but I submit what if there was sort of a campaign path for units/players

and they had to follow a stricter path for there combat career
units had to spend unit coffers for first dropship access then later buy there own drop ships
(this spending could take many forms like tonnage)

limitations in a campaign path would give something for players/units to fight/play for

we have restrictive events and Faction reputation (these are forms of restrictive game play)

the system we have now IMHO was a result of the time restriction of getting FP out in a short period of time

next because of constant complaints about FP PGI had to focus on polishing FP

if they had the man power they could have worked growing FP

OP keep thinking outside the box

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Drop decks will always be "how many of the best thing can I bring?" stacked with whatever else will fit. That is inevitable. That was inevitable from the moment the mechanic was announced. Nothing will ever change that. Restrict it to one of each weight class, at whatever tonnage per, and it'll be optimized for that too.

Minmaxing is not a thing you can restrict within game mechanics. Metagame players will always find the best build for any set of restrictions you enact.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 25 January 2019 - 05:32 PM, said:

If someone wants to do that, then let them. It's far from the norm/regular. Show me a single game where 3-4 players have brought the same 4 mechs. You will never find it or be able to provide it. Further invalidating this incorrect statement.

the only reason you dont see that is because its way better for people to frontload their dropdecks. You often see people take 3 of the same heavy mech and then a light mech.

but people would absolutely take the same 4 heavies if drop tonnage allowed it.

I agree that something needs to be done to increase mech variation in faction play. however the stick approach of forcing variation on people is completely idiotic. a carrot approach of rewarding people for taking different mechs would be much better.

it doesnt help that drop tonnages punish assault mechs way too much. drop tonnage shouldnt even be used. Tonnage isnt an accurate representation of a mech's power level. Instead there should be a point system so all mechs can be assigned a point value that makes sense. for example, all mechs could have a point value assigned between 10 and 20 for example and you could construct a dropdeck with 60 points or whatever (those are just arbitrary values for sake of example, they could be anything).

just because a mech is 100 tons doesnt mean its as good as an annihilator. theres HUGE variation there. having a point system like described above would encourage variation because every mech would have a cost that better represents what its actually power level is. If an annihilator is 20 points an atlas might be only 18 points. People might consider taking an atlas then. But theyll never take an atlas over an annihilator if they both cost 100 tons.

PGI absolutely needs to get away from using tonnage though. It doesnt work.

Edited by Khobai, 25 January 2019 - 08:27 PM.

[m]

Khobai, on 25 January 2019 - 08:12 PM, said:

I agree that something needs to be done to increase mech variation in faction play. however the stick approach of forcing variation on people is completely idiotic. a carrot approach of rewarding people for taking different mechs would be much better.

It's hard to come up with ideas when there's a hard-coded solution in place with limited flexibility. But we as a community usually think of something that can be tested.


Here's an interesting concept that needs artwork, model building, model implementation, and some light to medium coding:

More than one type of Aerodyne (fly-in, hover, fly-out along a flight path) dropship that allows you to take more mechs but only a maximum of 4 can be played. Change the model of the leopard to something else, link it to a larger dropdeck option for specific players that request it, and have it follow the same flight path. Models will need to be made as well as concept art. This could even be an incentive for those in a higher Tier and encourage those who play to work harder to earn a larger dropdeck.

Here's a quick layout for Tiers and dropdeck sizes based on this concept below:

Tier 5 - Leopard - Dropdeck of 4 mechs - IS 245/Clan 250

Tier 4 - Leopard - Dropdeck of 4 mechs - IS 245/Clan 250
OR - Broadsword - Dropdeck of 5 mechs - IS 265/Clan 270 ( 7% heavier than Leopard )

Tier 3 - Leopard - Dropdeck of 4 mechs - IS 245/Clan 250
OR - Broadsword - Dropdeck of 5 mechs - IS 265/Clan 270 ( 7% heavier than Leopard )

Tier 2 - Leopard - Dropdeck of 4 mechs - IS 245/Clan 250
OR - Broadsword - Dropdeck of 5 mechs - IS 265/Clan 270 ( 7% heavier than Leopard )
OR - Assault Triumph- Dropdeck of 6 mechs - IS 440/Clan 445 ( 78.5% heavier than Leopard )

Tier 1 - Leopard - Dropdeck of 4 mechs - IS 245/Clan 250
OR - Broadsword - Dropdeck of 5 mechs - IS 265/Clan 270 ( 7% heavier than Leopard )
OR - Assault Triumph- Dropdeck of 6 mechs - IS 440/Clan 445 ( 78.5% heavier than Leopard )
OR - Hamilcar - Dropdeck of 8 mechs - IS 375/Clan 380 ( 52% heavier than Leopard )


Above are all the Aerodyne Dropships (fly-in, hover, fly-out along a flight path) that are compatible with mechs. I just sorted them out according to a sort-of Tier Access Reward system. I suppose the larger the ship the longer it would take to arrive to a battle which would kind of correlate to choosing from a large list of mechs..also the other dropships would be long gone before the big ones arrive. I also did some quick math to figure out the dropdeck weights based off of our current weights and upscaled accordingly. It looks odd but its true.

List of Aerodyne Dropships


Also, if this was implemented I'd like to know if people would want some form of limiting factor like weight, class slots, weight slots, etc, etc ?

Khobai, on 25 January 2019 - 08:12 PM, said:

it doesnt help that drop tonnages punish assault mechs way too much.

Very true statement.

Edited by m, 25 January 2019 - 11:52 PM.

[LordNothing]

i tried to make the point that a flat 240 tons across both tech bases would allow for the most variety in possible deck configurations. the cries of the people who want to bring four meta helbies was loud. needless to say nobody liked the idea.

i mean the idea is sound. 60 is the median tonnage. the result is a maximum distribution of possible tonnage configurations. 2 fleas and 2 anihilators, four 60 tonners, two mediums and two heavies for easy mode players, or one of each class where you dont have to choose the highest weight in each to max out your tonnage.

you could also reward unused tonnage but then again you get people dropping 4 fish or 4 fleas and gimp the living hell out of your team. but hey, personal gain. maybe you can sum up the total undertonnage amount for the whole team and reward the team an honor bonus for running light. even a system where players could specialize in a single weight class and the surplus tonnage going to other players.

[Khobai]

LordNothing, on 26 January 2019 - 12:18 AM, said:

i tried to make the point that a flat 240 tons across both tech bases would allow for the most variety in possible deck configurations

that wont result in variety

because not all mechs of the same tonnage are created equally. an atlas for example is not equal to an annihilator. when the best mechs cost the same as mediocre mechs theres no reason not to always use the best mechs. thats whats killing variety.

the only way youll get variety is with a point buy system that assigns actual value to mechs based on their power level instead of using tonnage... because tonnage is completely inaccurate for discerning the true power level of a mech.

drop tonnage cant be fixed because its a fundamentally flawed and bad system to begin with.

Edited by Khobai, 27 January 2019 - 11:45 AM.