29 replies to this topic

[Spheroid]

I seem to be encountering a lot of "shoot the arms off" advice regarding Mad Cats, but no one offers justification of why this is promoted.

I am not so much contesting the tactic as the validity of the advice. Without data it is just an article of faith.

Where was the data pulled from? If it simply observed results in the live faction environment that is a terrible method. How do you control for map, differences in group composition, disconnects, etc.?

Obviously the idea is that the reduction in incoming firepower outweighs the increased TTK over the course of the wave. When was this demonstrated, who were the testers and what was the difference in wave attrition? These seem perfectly reasonable questions to ask.

Edited by Spheroid, 09 February 2019 - 10:18 AM.

[Steel Raven]

Shooting of the arms of a Mad Cat MKII is simply a obvious weakness in most popular builds. The Dakka MCMKII mounts all it's ACs in the arms which has less armor than the torso. Strip the arms and it's a well armored stick, no threat. Gauss Cat, may have a couple of lasers in the torso but otherwise, same logic. No arms, threat level goes way down.

There are a few other builds that have more torso mounted weapons but they are far less popular with the exception of SRM and LRM builds. Aiming for the ' mouse ears ' on those builds is a tactical old as the Timber Wolf.

[Spheroid]

Right but I am saying it is advice that is given without proof. Did a group of players sit down and arrange a 8v8 or 6v6 of identical Madcat Bs, one shooting arms, one CT over the course of say ten matches? To me that would be sufficient proof, not gut feelings derived from faction battles.

That is a proper experiment. The equipment is identical, the players are identical, the map is identical. The control variable is the gunnery tactic. In such an experiment you prove whether one is superior to the other and you show degree. That is all I am asking.

Edited by Spheroid, 09 February 2019 - 10:57 AM.

[C H E E K I E Z]

The arms have less health than the side torso's, and if you aim the arms you cant torso twist. if you shoot lasers at its CT, and you scrape all 3 components, if your alpha is 50, then technically you did probably around 15-20 dmg per component, where as if you did 50 dmg to its arm, it would almost be open, and if you are using balistics after that first shot they will be almost open, and you run the risk of having them blow up. Also unless its fresh, it will already have damage on its arms from pugs not shotting well, or lrms.

[Prototelis]

Wut. Its the lowest armored part of the mech, contains equipment with many crit slots.

Watch the ms crab meme drop from BFM, we literally only won because we pinched most of the gun arms off.

Its kind of a no brainer. One arm them and its instantly a medium mech.

[Fuerchtenichts]

Do we have April 1st?

[Lotspeech]

Meritless??

Do you really need to organize an 8v8 lobby to tell you that if you strip a mech it will be less effective...

Spheroid, on 09 February 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

Where was the data pulled from? If it simply observed results in the live faction environment that is a terrible method. How do you control for map, differences in group composition, disconnects, etc.?

What difference do disconnects make, and if I strip a mech on one map its no different then stripping it on another. This question doesn't even make sense. You might wanna consider rephrasing before someone comes along and rips you for not thinking.

Edited by kamichiwa343, 09 February 2019 - 01:36 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Spheroid, on 09 February 2019 - 10:42 AM, said:

Right but I am saying it is advice that is given without proof. Did a group of players sit down and arrange a 8v8 or 6v6 of identical Madcat Bs, one shooting arms, one CT over the course of say ten matches? To me that would be sufficient proof, not gut feelings derived from faction battles.

That is a proper experiment. The equipment is identical, the players are identical, the map is identical. The control variable is the gunnery tactic. In such an experiment you prove whether one is superior to the other and you show degree. That is all I am asking.

What? [redacted]

Less armour in arms, easy hit box.
CT not so easy especially if MCIIB pilot is using JJs and twisting.

It's just basic common sense. You don't need to test these things if you know how the game works.

Edited by Tina Benoit, 25 April 2019 - 02:44 PM.
condescending/insult

[Spheroid]

I'd rather people promote empiricism in support of an idea over "common sense". What is the empirical basis for the arm tactic? No one has provided that yet.

[General Solo]

Spheroid, on 09 February 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

...... Without data it is just an article of faith.

......... If it simply observed results in the live faction environment that is a terrible method.

Too many people don't observe and notice STUFF in the live faction/non faction environment

I believe wot my eyes and mini map tell me more than I believe most players

Half the problem I think, not enough observation and too much blindly repeat wot some guy said without understanding why stuff was said.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 09 February 2019 - 02:11 PM.

[K O Z A K]

Spheroid, on 09 February 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'd rather people promote empiricism in support of an idea over "common sense". What is the empirical basis for the arm tactic? No one has provided that yet.

you're asking people to do something that is a complete waste of time, the outcome is so obvious

it's like hey Spheroid, get together with a bunch of people in a private lobby to test that gauss rifles are colder running than lasers, it's obvious like water is wet, but I don't believe anyone has dropped 16 people into a private lobby to definitively prove specifically that and recorded the results

[justcallme A S H]

Spheroid, on 09 February 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'd rather people promote empiricism in support of an idea over "common sense". What is the empirical basis for the arm tactic? No one has provided that yet.

I JUST DID.

I told you exactly why.

Hazeclaw, on 09 February 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

you're asking people to do something that is a complete waste of time, the outcome is so obvious

it's like hey Spheroid, get together with a bunch of people in a private lobby to test that gauss rifles are colder running than lasers, it's obvious like water is wet, but I don't believe anyone has dropped 16 people into a private lobby to definitively prove specifically that and recorded the results

ROFL.

Exactly it... SRMs won't fit targets at 500m - but let's get a 12v12 lobby just to make sure the maths is right shall we?

[Nightbird]

How about you just don't take the advice and just shoot the torsos? Thank you

[The6thMessenger]

It's kinda a no-brainer, shoot the guns away and it would be basically harmless. The issue here is "killing", because you don't have to kill the MCII, just neuter it by taking away the guns work adequately. Aside from sensor contribution, there's hardly any difference from "dead" and "no weapons", unless enemies are dumb enough to still shoot the stick.

Lets put it this way, 2 Arms armor + structure is (60 + 30) x 2 = 180 damage, but going through the side-torsos, (38 + 84) x 2 = 244, and 180 < 244 -- so with "neutered" and "dead" is rather simmilar, wouldn't you agree that doing 180 damage to neuter the MCII is easier to do than the 244 damage to kill the MCII. And that is even assuming that you either hit only the side-torsi continuously without the CT being even hit. Yes, you do take longer time to kill, but they are also easier to kill because you're not being shot at.

Madcat arms are also magnet for damage, and they are quite easy to shield with cause they are actually large, but I guess that's the crux of the problem, it's quite easy to shield damage off especially against targets that can't aim for **** (and//or have sub 20 FPS).

A similar thought is Legging, which is really less about killing, but maiming the target so it's easier to kill. Leg a light, and it's practically dead.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 February 2019 - 09:01 PM.

[Grus]

Spheroid, on 09 February 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'd rather people promote empiricism in support of an idea over &quot;common sense&quot;. What is the empirical basis for the arm tactic? No one has provided that yet.

I bet you burnt your hand on the stove a few times after your parents told you "dont touch that! Its hot!"...

Edited by Grus, 10 February 2019 - 08:36 AM.

[Yondu Udonta]

Might as well shoot the head eh? Least hitpoints on most mechs.

Edited by Yondu Udonta, 11 February 2019 - 06:21 AM.

[Geewiz 27]

Grus, on 10 February 2019 - 08:35 AM, said:

I bet you burnt your hand on the stove a few times after your parents told you "dont touch that! Its hot!"...

[Tarl Cabot]

Yondu Udonta, on 11 February 2019 - 05:14 AM, said:

Might as well shoot the head eh? Least hitpoints on most mechs.

Harder to hit.. but it is also much smaller.

60 pts armor + 30 IS / Big juicy arms with Ballistic weapons

111 pts armor (5rct) + 58 IS / Center Torso - Great if you and several others have the mech facing you and yours, but if not or more to the side.. where is all of the damage heading for ?

71 pts armor (5rst) + 38 IS / each Side Torso partially covered by big juicy arms with weapons in them

One arm, cut damage output by half, or nearly in half. Aiming for CT, damage spread to ST also, mech is still outpouring damage from both arms.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 11 February 2019 - 06:24 PM.

[Appogee]

I just killed soloed one MKII, and then another, in my LPL GHR by ... shooting the arms off first.

(I used cover in between shots. They had none.)

But I guess I now have to go solo two MKIIs aiming for the CT, as a control, for Spheroid's sake

Edited by Appogee, 11 February 2019 - 07:25 PM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

With a hard hitting mech (like a fafnir etc) you can neuter a MC-IIC B in like 5 seconds if you go for the arms. (Arms are stupidly easy to hit from the side). It's a lot easier to hit the arm then to hit the CT.

Just to add some thing to clarify, of course if the MC doesn't move might as well shoot the CT (or the cockpit) that obviously will do the trick as well.
In reality, the target moves, there is partially cover, other mechs etc etc.
Not every mech fields pinpoint damage, a lot of the "meta" runs spread damage, like assassins with srms, quickdraw/cyclops with mrm, LB-10-X boats (sleipnir etc) those mechs have a spread, they compensate for that with high dps.
If i field an assassin with quad srm4 or 6, an IV4 with mrm60 or a sleipnir with quad LB-10-X i simply can't center on a MC-IIC's center torso, i'd guess half if not more of the damage will go to either side torso. I can't center on the STs as well, half the damage will go to the CT and the arm. What i can do is drop most of the damage on the arm, i will lose very little spread on the attached ST. Especially if i circle the mech.

It's arguably healthier to approch a MC-IIC from an angle (the side) then face it head on.
And i think this is part of the reason why the Deathstrike is so strong. Shooting off the arms of a deathstrike doesn't impairs it's abilities nearly as much as shooting the arms on a MC-IIC B, hench people rather shoot center on a DS which ultimately keeps the DS longer in the fight.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 13 February 2019 - 02:23 PM.