47 replies to this topic

[245 Trioxin]

First, I'll be honest. Whenever anyone starts a new topic in a forum, they always have dreams of being The One that opens eyes and minds, and somehow enacts a change that improves the game for themselves and for all.

I'm certainly no different in that regard; I DO hope that someone at the developing studio listens and thinks long and hard about possible repairs/fixes/work-a-rounds for what I see as issues that are starting to compound within the game.

I'll state that I have doubts that MWO 2.0 will come to be, and that's because of the issues I see within MWO 1.0. It is possible that it will come about, and if that's the case, then I will happily get down on my knees to beg and plead that they take this golden opportunity to resolve the issues that plague MWO currently.

I can all but hear eyes rolling and that gusty sigh; "Ah, another one of THOSE..." Well.. yes. But I don't come into this without experience; I cut my teeth on Meridian 59, which was an MMORPG before the phrase had even been coined. This was, I believe, back in the early 1990's.
I've played in so many of them that I've lost count; Meridian, Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, both iterations of EverQuest, SWOTOR, WoW, D&DO, Conan, Warhammer, City of Heroes.. lots and lots.

I've seen them come, and I've seen them go; I've also took notice of what happened prior to the decline and eventual final power-off of the realms.

MWO problem #1: Everything's a Brawl

There are many different match types, but let's be honest... it all devolves into a brawl. Incursion? It's a brawl. Rarely if ever do you have light mechs doing their jobs and ferreting out cells to feed to their base's power-hungry systems. 99% of the time, everyone meets in the middle... forms firing lines along the back wall for LRM shelling... and the heavies and assaults stare at and poke at each-other from across a semi-narrow gorge. Occasionally tempers flare, and it'll turn into a Ballroom Blitz.

Domination? The only thing about this one is that the dance floor is pre-defined by what I have heard affectionately called 'the pee stain'. Everyone meets in the middle, and the piper starts to play. Ball-room blitz indeed.

Assault? Yep. Brawl. Everyone meets at squares on the map that rarely if ever change. There are places to go, and places you don't go. 'Death Valley' in one map... bad. The Citadel = good. The Basement= Generally considered bad, but I've participated in some REALLY fun 'Alamo Defenses' of the basement. Though honestly, that's a brawl in a -very- small area. And the point is to deny everyone not on your team access to the dance floor. It's only if the brawl starts to go sideways for a team that the Light mechs get chastized for not capturing the enemy base; if they do it any sooner, they get chastized for not contributing to the brawl and not sharing armor. Yes, I have been chastised for not sharing armor in a Locust Peanut Buter. It barely has armor to speak of.

Conquest? This is the 'Pub Crawl' of brawls, though the main dance hall seems to wind up at Theta. This one, though, is the closest to what I think the game could be. It shows the most promise, because it requires more than just 'stand and shoot' thinking.


MWO problem #2:It's not you, it's the Maps, baby...

The maps are sorely limited, and the paths therein are well-tread. HPG manifold comes up, everyone calls to push the top. Every map has their hot-spot that everyone will automatically go to. The fight always happens there, as any deviation from that formula will result in defeat. If you're lucky to get one spawn point, your team could have the fast route to the IWIN button. If not, then it'll be a slog to get there, and the other team will have to make some pretty interesting mistakes for you to have a chance.

MWO Problem #3: Mech specializations

Every mech is built for a purpose. Dakka builds. Piranha buzz-zaws. Nova sand-blasters. Mad Cat stompy-death. Spiders. Locust Peanut-Butter. A player builds a mech to suit a particular play style and then selects maps specifically to cater TO that play style.

The problem is that many specialty mechs are absolutely horri-bad elsewhere. For example, the Spider 5V. This mech has only two laser hard points. That's it. It doesn't have ECM. Doesn't have AMS. But you can up-rate the engine and make this 30 ton mech move very nearly as fast as a Locust.. and it has jump-jets. It also has an 80% capture buff. This, combined with the proper skill nodes makes this mech count as two when it comes to capturing the enemy base or resource nodes. But... while these maps DO happen, the vast majority of the player base chooses a map and fight type suitable for brawling. A Spider 5V is... really kinda awful anywhere else. You also don't get to choose a mech based on the map; you choose the mech first, and then run a (very high) risk of getting something the mech is ill-suited for. This forces the majority of the players to go for a brawling build or face the specter of being fundamentally useless.

And when the brawling players lose their map choice, hoo-BOY do they ever complain about the 'Skill-less scrubs in the LRM boats because they SUCK AT PLAYING THE GAME'.

MWO Problem #4: The 'Get Gud' mentality.

If you're not a brawler, or if you have an opinion that differs from the brawling.. you'll be told to 'Get Gud' and then roundly dismissed from further consideration. It's their preferred sand-box to play in, and anyone else isn't worth their time. Good luck getting any help to 'get gud', too. It's all about their own self-glory.

MWO Problem #5: Smaller player base

Because of the high skill-cap and rather... specific.. mentality of the current players, you either have to accept the fact that you'll be gristle for the meat grinder for a very long time.. possibly forever... or you'll lose interest and move on to a different game. Since there's a somewhat limited playerbase to choose from, you'll wind up having either extremely long wait times (assuming the match maker hasn't coughed up a hairball again...), or you'll be put in matches with vastly more experienced players. And used as a chew-toy rather directly.


So... what to do about it?

It's generally easier to give someone something, than it is to take it away... but taking something away is what I think has to be done.

One suggestion I have is to take away the capability of choosing the map and match type. You go in blind. You don't KNOW if you'll be in Rubelite.. or Terra Therma.. or HPG Manifold.. or Frozen City... Or Viridian Bog... and you won't know until you get there. You also won't know what you'll be doing here, either. Will it be Conquest? Incursion? Assault? Domination? It'll all be determined by the Great Khan RNG. Also, consider trying to come up with an algorithm that will generate maps on the fly, within certain limitations. No all-mountain peak maps with no walking room. The occasional tundra/taiga/plains should be fine, though.

What will this accomplish? Well, you'll see a wider variety of mechs being taken for starters. Since you won't know where you're going.. you might think twice about taking a pure LRM/ATM/MRM boat. You might build something with a little bit of a mix of weapons types to provide at least a marginal bit of functionality in all different terrain types. You'll also have to learn how to handle the different match types as well; you won't be able to select 'Skirmish' to exclusion because you're a big-bad brawler. Big-Bad-Brawlers can be shredded on the open-plains by ATM/LRM's. You'll also see a wider variety of mech loadouts from your team-mates as well. The matches will also be unpredictable. With a custom-generated map, you won't be able to use canned strategies for every map. No more 'rush the top' or 'keep out of the basement' on HPG manifold. I'm not saying get rid of those maps.. include them, too. But... spice it up a little (ok, spice it up a LOT) with unique maps that you'll never see again. Different worlds, different battlefields.. why would it always be Manifold, or Rubelite, or anything else? See what I'm getting at?

This lack of certainty... lack of choice.. will also stem the compaction of the Mech selection process. With the implicit bias towards brawling, the light and medium mechs tend to get chosen a bit less often, as they can't go toe to toe with the Heavies and Assaults. They're backstabbers. Harassers. Support units. Having no choice where you fight and how you fight would make it viable to choose them again. I've also seen folks use certain Medium mechs as LRM boats. Yes, I'm guilty of it too. The Huntsman can handle 3 ATM-12's or 3 LRM-20's. I've had a few 1000 point games that way. I've also been mulched for attempting it, because my own team elected not to radar lock onto the targets as a way to express their disfavor of such a choice.

A second suggestion is to reward people for doing their jobs. It's going to be excessively rare for a Light mech to crank out the kind of numbers that an Assault does (unless the other team is very foolish). If an Assault and Heavy mech's job is to dish out pain and property damage, then a Light's job is to capture resources, back-stab, harass. If a Light mech captures a point solo, then give them team points for doing so comparable to that of an Assault scoring a kill or doing a sizeable amount of damage. Make it directly analogous; If a point is nearly completely captured, then the first Light on the scene will get the kill, and KMDD for the capture; the others will get an Assist. Oh, and what I mentioned before... give a team bonus to everyone for locking on with their R keys.

I'd suggest also keeping the Tier system, but making it invisible to both the player and the general public. It also needs to be revamped rather badly; throw out whatever it looks at now, and come up with a way to grade how well everyone does their job. One of my former lance-mates explained to me that the current Tier is really little more than an age bar. Play long enough, and you'll eventually claw your way into Tier 1, even if you don't belong there.
Get rid of any reliance on win/loss ratio; these are things you can't control. Get rid of any reliance of the Kill vs. Death ratio as well, for the same reason. You can do your job beautifully, and still lose status because your team's Assault mechs got distracted by chasing squirrels, or worse.. gave up because their Blood Asp LRM boat got stuck on a map that made them little more than useless. Make this rating grade you on your chosen type.... and have a rating for each level of Mech. My 'Tier 1' rating (no, I don't have a Tier 1. I'm Tier 5, currently) should only be considered when I'm in a Light mech. If I decide to break out an Annihilator.. then I should be in Tier 5 for Assaults.. until I earn a higher rating for it. The coding for this really wouldn't be that hard. Define four variables, one for each level of Mech.. and use that variable as the basis for the Tier rating for that particular Mech style.

Yes, I do expect to be told to 'Get Gud'... and you know what? You're absolutely right. I DO need to 'Get Gud'. The problem is, you can't really 'Get Gud' when your Assaults are chasing squirrels (the light mechs) for swatting them on the backside... because the mediums weren't guarding the Assaults, the Heavies were wandering around the map as if they were lights, and the light mechs were busy exploding because they charged head on into the enemy Assault lance due to either suicidal tendencies or pure delusions of grandeur.

So.. I don't know if anyone will read this, let alone agree with it. This is just one person's opinion, based on years of experience elsewhere.

I really do like MWO, but.. she's showing signs that I've seen elsewhere. And they don't lead to a happy ending. I'm hoping MWO can be different in that.

-245 Trioxin

[John Bronco]

I agree with your 2nd point but that's about it, it sounds like most of your whinging is about the solo queue player base which, as you've concluded, you can't do much about. I think your experience would be more positive by grouping up and dropping with reliable friends.

[245 Trioxin]

BlaizerP, on 21 February 2019 - 08:42 AM, said:

I agree with your 2nd point but that's about it, it sounds like most of your whinging is about the solo queue player base which, as you've concluded, you can't do much about. I think your experience would be more positive by grouping up and dropping with reliable friends.

I've tried that too, and strangely enough... I've gotten the tar beaten out of me worse on those group drops than in solo queue. That probably speaks volumes as to my ability to play, no doubt. As I've mentioned before, there's a HUGE amount of room for improvement in my playing. But I've also been told that the Group Drop is Tier-less.. pays no attention to it. While the Tier rating is mostly about age, there is something on skill level, too. So you'll wind up with highly skilled players munching away.

I still think that pulling out the choice of map and type would help, since it'd force a bit more team reliance and emphasize everyone doing their jobs.

But who knows... maybe in my ignorance I've completely misread this. As I believe I mentioned, this is just my opinion based on experiences elsewhere.

To paraphrase Billy Joel... 'I may be wrong, but I may be right' or something.

-245 Trioxin

[Ssamout]

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 09:07 AM, said:

I've tried that too, and strangely enough... I've gotten the tar beaten out of me worse on those group drops than in solo queue. That probably speaks volumes as to my ability to play, no doubt. As I've mentioned before, there's a HUGE amount of room for improvement in my playing. But I've also been told that the Group Drop is Tier-less.. pays no attention to it. While the Tier rating is mostly about age, there is something on skill level, too. So you'll wind up with highly skilled players munching away.

So much skill has left the game. Most of the matches are scrub festivals, and it feels like potatoes are competing whos derping the most.

[Joshua McEvedy]

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

One suggestion I have is to take away the capability of choosing the map and match type. You go in blind. You don't KNOW if you'll be in Rubelite.. or Terra Therma.. or HPG Manifold.. or Frozen City... Or Viridian Bog... and you won't know until you get there. You also won't know what you'll be doing here, either. Will it be Conquest? Incursion? Assault? Domination? It'll all be determined by the Great Khan RNG. Also, consider trying to come up with an algorithm that will generate maps on the fly, within certain limitations. No all-mountain peak maps with no walking room. The occasional tundra/taiga/plains should be fine, though.

Flashback to October 2015:

https://mwomercs.com...ting-confirmed/

Bottom line...in the early days there was no map voting and it was awful. The community demanded map voting and Papa Russ delivered.

Edited by Joshua McEvedy, 21 February 2019 - 09:22 AM.

[Bud Crue]

OP,

Why the intro emphasizing your experience in MMORPGs? This game is an arena shooter with mechs. Nothing more. Do yourself a favor and enjoy it for what it is, not what you want it to be, at least when it comes to such fundamental aspects. Yes, by all means, join us in yapping at PGI to fix what can be fixed and should be fixed, but the effort required to make this thing into an MMORPG or even have some flavor of RP is just way, way beyond anything PGI is capable of. Somewhere your efforts might best be focused, if you really want to push for this sort of stuff on the level that PGI might consider, may be in Paul’s proposed revision of FP (https://mwomercs.com...t-mechcon-2018/ ). This has been a topic of discussion since last August and is to be announced in March (last I heard).


Also: As to your identified problem #1. As far as I am concerned that is not a problem, but the goal.

Edited by Bud Crue, 21 February 2019 - 09:25 AM.

[Bombast]

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO problem #1: Everything's a Brawl

This is largely a lower tier thing. The longer you play, the less consistent and useful brawling becomes.

Quote

MWO problem #2:It's not you, it's the Maps, baby...

The maps are sorely limited, and the paths therein are well-tread. HPG manifold comes up, everyone calls to push the top.

Oh God, I wish top on HPG manifold was a hot spot...

Quote

MWO Problem #3: Mech specializations

A lot of the mechs being useless is a problem thats been brought up more than once. The solution thats brought up a lot is more mega-quirks to at least make the less-good interesting if not good.

Quote

MWO Problem #4: The 'Get Gud' mentality.

If you're not a brawler, or if you have an opinion that differs from the brawling.. you'll be told to 'Get Gud' and then roundly dismissed from further consideration. It's their preferred sand-box to play in, and anyone else isn't worth their time. Good luck getting any help to 'get gud', too. It's all about their own self-glory.

That's multiplayer games. Don't worry, when you're top tier it's going to be all about that mid-range damage.

Quote

One suggestion I have is to take away the capability of choosing the map and match type.

Been suggested forever. Not happening, apparently.

Quote

I'd suggest also keeping the Tier system, but making it invisible to both the player and the general public. It also needs to be revamped rather badly; throw out whatever it looks at now, and come up with a way to grade how well everyone does their job.

I'm not sure what hiding tier would accomplish. And while tier calculation adjustments have been suggested forever, it's not changing - It's working exactly how PGI wants it to work, for some reason.

Quote

Yes, I do expect to be told to 'Get Gud'... and you know what? You're absolutely right. I DO need to 'Get Gud'. The problem is, you can't really 'Get Gud' when your Assaults are chasing squirrels (the light mechs) for swatting them on the backside... because the mediums weren't guarding the Assaults, the Heavies were wandering around the map as if they were lights, and the light mechs were busy exploding because they charged head on into the enemy Assault lance due to either suicidal tendencies or pure delusions of grandeur.

You have to realize that you're in Tier 4-5 right now, and the only people who are in that tier are new players, or the absolute worst players imaginable. The kind of people who have played for years and are still absolutely miserable. You are not going to find good examples to emulate in your games.

The best way to 'get gud' is to find a streamer/youtuber who's good and watch them, or find someone to mentor you (Someone you don't find in your matches), or just pay attention to the map and actually think, which will put you miles ahead of most players in this game.

[thievingmagpi]

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO problem #1: Everything's a Brawl

You're right, sort of. That's generally due to how SQ plays. Most players don't know the tiniest bit about positioning. That's why you'll see them rotate into and subsequently out of
power positions.

I love mid to long range trading. It's fun. I'm not going to do it by myself when the rest of the team flees out of a good position- whilst the weight of the enemy rushes you to your left.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

There are many different match types, but let's be honest... it all devolves into a brawl. Incursion? It's a brawl. Rarely if ever do you have light mechs doing their jobs and ferreting out cells to feed to their base's power-hungry systems. 99% of the time, everyone meets in the middle... forms firing lines along the back wall for LRM shelling... and the heavies and assaults stare at and poke at each-other from across a semi-narrow gorge. Occasionally tempers flare, and it'll turn into a Ballroom Blitz.

A lights job is to win.

Battery cells really aren't important. Grabbing one, maybe two off of the start is really all that's "needed". Maybe a second round if things are really slow.

Taking yourself out of the match to "ferret" out cells means you are not contributing to the match.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

Domination? The only thing about this one is that the dance floor is pre-defined by what I have heard affectionately called 'the pee stain'. Everyone meets in the middle, and the piper starts to play. Ball-room blitz indeed.

The crazy thing about domination is you don't need to be in the middle.

Yet everyone runs to it. Even on maps where the circle is at the bottom of a deep bowl surrounded by great vantage points with excellent cover. But no, let's run out into the open of said bowl because... ???

It's really an unfortunate player IQ issue.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO problem #2:It's not you, it's the Maps, baby...

The maps are sorely limited, and the paths therein are well-tread. HPG manifold comes up, everyone calls to push the top. Every map has their hot-spot that everyone will automatically go to. The fight always happens there, as any deviation from that formula will result in defeat. If you're lucky to get one spawn point, your team could have the fast route to the IWIN button. If not, then it'll be a slog to get there, and the other team will have to make some pretty interesting mistakes for you to have a chance.

Yeah.

Lol.

Maps.

C O N T E N T

Want to buy a mech pack?

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO Problem #3: Mech specializations

Every mech is built for a purpose. Dakka builds. Piranha buzz-zaws. Nova sand-blasters. Mad Cat stompy-death. Spiders. Locust Peanut-Butter. A player builds a mech to suit a particular play style and then selects maps specifically to cater TO that play style.





The problem is that many specialty mechs are absolutely horri-bad elsewhere. For example, the Spider 5V. This mech has only two laser hard points. That's it. It doesn't have ECM. Doesn't have AMS. But you can up-rate the engine and make this 30 ton mech move very nearly as fast as a Locust.. and it has jump-jets. It also has an 80% capture buff. This, combined with the proper skill nodes makes this mech count as two when it comes to capturing the enemy base or resource nodes. But... while these maps DO happen, the vast majority of the player base chooses a map and fight type suitable for brawling. A Spider 5V is... really kinda awful anywhere else. You also don't get to choose a mech based on the map; you choose the mech first, and then run a (very high) risk of getting something the mech is ill-suited for. This forces the majority of the players to go for a brawling build or face the specter of being fundamentally useless.

Meh, that's sort of why I like the map selection thing. Adds a challenge. Always having the "right build" for the "right map" would be boring. Brawling on polar is fun sometimes. Finding an avenue for sneaking erppc sniping on mining can be fun sometimes. Maybe I'm a masochist.

I could just be stubborn or flat-out wrong, gameplay may indeed actually improve if mechs could be matched to maps- but in my mind it's really the least of the issues.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

And when the brawling players lose their map choice, hoo-BOY do they ever complain about the 'Skill-less scrubs in the LRM boats because they SUCK AT PLAYING THE GAME'.

on the other hand, reduction of skill ceiling is one of the worst offenders.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO Problem #4: The 'Get Gud' mentality.

If you're not a brawler, or if you have an opinion that differs from the brawling.. you'll be told to 'Get Gud' and then roundly dismissed from further consideration. It's their preferred sand-box to play in, and anyone else isn't worth their time. Good luck getting any help to 'get gud', too. It's all about their own self-glory.

There are plenty of people out there looking to help others. Lots of groups looking to train people. Helpful, generous streamers who share knowledge and tactics.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO Problem #5: Smaller player base

Because of the high skill-cap and rather... specific.. mentality of the current players, you either have to accept the fact that you'll be gristle for the meat grinder for a very long time.. possibly forever... or you'll lose interest and move on to a different game. Since there's a somewhat limited playerbase to choose from, you'll wind up having either extremely long wait times (assuming the match maker hasn't coughed up a hairball again...), or you'll be put in matches with vastly more experienced players. And used as a chew-toy rather directly.

Yes, poor matchmaking and terrible New Player Experience does no favours for mwo.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

So... what to do about it?

Tons.

Not that PGI has ever been receptive to it.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

A second suggestion is to reward people for doing their jobs. It's going to be excessively rare for a Light mech to crank out the kind of numbers that an Assault does (unless the other team is very foolish). If an Assault and Heavy mech's job is to dish out pain and property damage, then a Light's job is to capture resources, back-stab, harass. If a Light mech captures a point solo, then give them team points for doing so comparable to that of an Assault scoring a kill or doing a sizeable amount of damage. Make it directly analogous; If a point is nearly completely captured, then the first Light on the scene will get the kill, and KMDD for the capture; the others will get an Assist. Oh, and what I mentioned before... give a team bonus to everyone for locking on with their R keys.

Winning is a mech's job.

Buffing "non damage" rewards might be an okay idea, but frankly it would take even more players away from the fight. Have even more ERLL Ravens doing nothing off in some far flung corner of the map, not contributing.

You're certainly welcome to argue that maybe the game should be less kill focused, but I don't play Big Stompy Robots to do Fetch Quests or Capture the Trinket.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

I'd suggest also keeping the Tier system, but making it invisible to both the player and the general public. It also needs to be revamped rather badly; throw out whatever it looks at now, and come up with a way to grade how well everyone does their job. One of my former lance-mates explained to me that the current Tier is really little more than an age bar. Play long enough, and you'll eventually claw your way into Tier 1, even if you don't belong there.
Get rid of any reliance on win/loss ratio; these are things you can't control. Get rid of any reliance of the Kill vs. Death ratio as well, for the same reason. You can do your job beautifully, and still lose status because your team's Assault mechs got distracted by chasing squirrels, or worse.. gave up because their Blood Asp LRM boat got stuck on a map that made them little more than useless. Make this rating grade you on your chosen type.... and have a rating for each level of Mech. My 'Tier 1' rat
ing (no, I don't have a Tier 1. I'm Tier 5, currently) should only be considered when I'm in a Light mech. If I decide to break out an Annihilator.. then I should be in Tier 5 for Assaults.. until I earn a higher rating for it. The coding for this really wouldn't be that hard. Define four variables, one for each level of Mech.. and use that variable as the basis for the Tier rating for that particular Mech style.

Yes, Tier/Matchmaker as is needs to be shot into the moon.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

Yes, I do expect to be told to 'Get Gud'... and you know what? You're absolutely right. I DO need to 'Get Gud'. The problem is, you can't really 'Get Gud' when your Assaults are chasing squirrels (the light mechs) for swatting them on the backside... because the mediums weren't guarding the Assaults, the Heavies were wandering around the map as if they were lights, and the light mechs were busy exploding because they charged head on into the enemy Assault lance due to either suicidal tendencies or pure delusions of grandeur.

I agree to an extent. Matches are a mess. It can be hard to tell if you are learning. New players can't always tell if they are doing the right things, and further nerfing of skill ceiling means that actually putting in effort is not rewarded.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

So.. I don't know if anyone will read this, let alone agree with it. This is just one person's opinion, based on years of experience elsewhere.

I really do like MWO, but.. she's showing signs that I've seen elsewhere. And they don't lead to a happy ending. I'm hoping MWO can be different in that.

-245 Trioxin

I'd say you're mostly correct in a lot of your criticisms.

[JediPanther]

The crap map design has been and will be mwo's main problem. As for lights you'll find the good light pilots easily equal or out do assault mechs. they might not have that 4-7 kills per match but they can easily do 500 or more damage. And when you have an assault do the absolute lowest damage possible of 1 you groan every time you repost the screen shot.

As for the spider 5v it is the worst mech in the game period. No other mech in the game has only ct weapons slots with a max potential alpha of just 12. That 80% capture quirk or whatever? Only useful in one game mode and born from the dart board of quirks.

[thievingmagpi]

JediPanther, on 21 February 2019 - 09:31 AM, said:

The crap map design has been and will be mwo's main problem. As for lights you'll find the good light pilots easily equal or out do assault mechs. they might not have that 4-7 kills per match but they can easily do 500 or more damage. And when you have an assault do the absolute lowest damage possible of 1 you groan every time you repost the screen shot.

outdamaging all of charlie lance in a 20-tonner feels... feels weird man.

JediPanther, on 21 February 2019 - 09:31 AM, said:

As for the spider 5v it is the worst mech in the game period. No other mech in the game has only ct weapons slots with a max potential alpha of just 12. That 80% capture quirk or whatever? Only useful in one game mode and born from the dart board of quirks.

25 % energy cooldown
10% range
-20% duration

2 mpl and a ton of JJS

feelsgoodman

Edited by thievingmagpi, 21 February 2019 - 09:36 AM.

[JediPanther]

thievingmagpi, on 21 February 2019 - 09:35 AM, said:

outdamaging all of charlie lance in a 20-tonner feels... feels weird man.






25 % energy cooldown
10% range
-20% duration

2 mpl and a ton of JJS

feelsgoodman

I like out damaging all of charlie lance. Feels good man. Quirks don't make the worst mech in the game any better. Fresh **** feels good compared to dry I guess. I'll use any other of my 40 plus IS lights over the 5v. I just keep it for the novelty value.

[Mister Maf]

There's a lot to unpack here but I'm going to zero in on map voting. There used to be a time where it worked just as you say; map and mode were chosen randomly with no player influence. While there was certainly a more even distribution of variety, it was frustrating because taking anything other than an ERPPC/Gauss rifle peek-and-shoot build was a huge risk and fed into a meta that wasn't fun to play against. At least with map voting you are more likely to get a map that fits the majority of the types of mechs people are piloting. If map and mode were randomized then players should be allowed to take a drop deck similar to faction play and pick one of those mechs when you load in.

[thievingmagpi]

JediPanther, on 21 February 2019 - 09:44 AM, said:

I like out damaging all of charlie lance. Feels good man. Quirks don't make the worst mech in the game any better. Fresh **** feels good compared to dry I guess. I'll use any other of my 40 plus IS lights over the 5v. I just keep it for the novelty value.

Actually those are some pretty hefty quirks on top of a very mobile chassis.

Lights that are worse than the 5v:

Every other Spider.

Every Raven.

Most Panthers.

Any Osiris that isn't the 4d

Most Locusts.

Jenners that aren't the F.


Kit Fox

[Xiphias]

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

One suggestion I have is to take away the capability of choosing the map and match type. You go in blind.
...
Well, you'll see a wider variety of mechs being taken for starters. Since you won't know where you're going.. you might think twice about taking a pure LRM/ATM/MRM boat. You might build something with a little bit of a mix of weapons types to provide at least a marginal bit of functionality in all different terrain types.

To the map voting. The game used to have completely random map selection. Rather than increasing build diversity this tended to to reduce to it. The reason being that if you don't know what map you will end up on the best choice is to take some type of generalized mid range build that can be effective on the largest range of maps. With map voting you have more control and that makes it less risky to choose a more specialized build. It's a mixed bag and it doesn't make a big difference to me personally, but from experience it's not going to be a big boon to mech/build diversity.

I think everyone here agrees that more maps would be great, but PGI has made it pretty clear that procedurally generated maps aren't going to be implemented.

Mixed range/weapon type builds aren't good, regardless of the environment. A brawl build is good if you know you'll be in a situation you can use it. Similarly with other specialized builds. Remove that element and you won't get mixed builds you will get generalized builds, which is something very different. An example would be something like a a Gauss + ERML mech (e.g. Hellbringer or Warhammer) these mechs can perform reasonably well on both hot or cold maps and at various ranges. You're not going to get a mech with an LRM10, an AC5, and a smattering of lasers, those types of builds simply aren't good at any engagement distance which makes them bad at all of them.

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I've also seen folks use certain Medium mechs as LRM boats. Yes, I'm guilty of it too. The Huntsman can handle 3 ATM-12's or 3 LRM-20's. I've had a few 1000 point games that way. I've also been mulched for attempting it, because my own team elected not to radar lock onto the targets as a way to express their disfavor of such a choice.

Of any mech, mediums are arguably the best suited for running LRMs/ATM. Why? Because they are fast and maneuverable enough to get angles to get fire on target and have more tonnage than lights to manage it. You should always be prepared to get and maintain your own locks if you are taking a missile boat though, particularly if you're a medium there's no excuse for not being able to hold your own locks.

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Get rid of any reliance on win/loss ratio; these are things you can't control.

You absolutely control your WLR. Losing the mindset that you don't is the first step towards being a better player. You can't win every match that you are in, you can however contribute to every match. If you make a significant contribution in each match you are in, over a large number of matches it will absolutely affect your WLR.

Don't focus on what your team did wrong that cost you the match, you can't control your team. Focus on what you could have done better to have contributed more to the team in that match. Did you die early? Be more careful in your movement/positioning. Were you out of the main engagement for a significant period of time for some reason (capping, flanking, etc.)? If so, how could you have done something better to minimize that time away e.g not capping in slow mechs (was capping necessary at that point?), could you have made a tighter flank (was flanking appropriate?).

Any time that the enemy team is damaging your team and you aren't damaging the enemy team is probably something that could be improved. Focus on building up a bunch of small advantages rather than looking for one big move that will suddenly win you a game.

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I really do like MWO, but.. she's showing signs that I've seen elsewhere. And they don't lead to a happy ending. I'm hoping MWO can be different in that.

At this point MWO has been playable for ~6.5 years (including beta). All games have a lifespan and as much as I like this one it is does like like it's in the process of winding down.

[Bowelhacker]

Why can we not do the map voting then have 45 seconds (or whatever) to pick a mech once we know the map?

I do love the people that say "winning" is a mech's job then complain when a mech goes off and caps instead and butting heads with everyone else, thus winning. I think it's probably because people are morons.

[Anjian]

Devolving into a brawl is not a bad thing. Devolving into a camp and snipe thing, that's a bad thing.

[Wild Pegasus]

Anjian, on 21 February 2019 - 03:37 PM, said:

Devolving into a brawl is not a bad thing.

It can be if your team doesn't understand the concept of focusing fire and just stumbles around, blasting at whoever's in front of them until they shut down. Brawling effectively requires just as much thought as proper mid-range engagement.

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Devolving into a camp and snipe thing, that's a bad thing.

This I definitely agree with. Especially when you have to deal with the TurretWarriors who are oblivious to anything around them and don't notice when the team has left them behind.

[VulcanXIV]

Personally I don't feel that any of the issues this game faces are primarily what OP talked about. Fixes are what he speaks but what this game needs is revolution. Let me explain.

Who the f DOESN'T love mechs? Look how long Hawken freaking hanged around despite being the most cyberpunk ugliness excuse for mechs out there. That's not the point though, what i'm saying is that, in my opinion, this game doesn't need to fix anything EXACTLY per se, but rather needs 1 thing and one thing only.

1. The company's desire to make a GAME more than a NEARLY-minimum effort live service. There are so many ideas in the battletech universe that have yet to be fully fleshed out in this game and some that have even been implemented but pulled out. This devs missed the mark HARD with solaris 7, did so much work to rebrand this game for the sake of exactly what i'm talking about doing: Gaining a bigger playerbase. It flopped because all it turned out to be was a neat little nod to a battletech universe lore and nothing more. Who cares about that seriously? I mean obviously that's not what all but who asked for that? seriously?

This game itself is all it needs to be, and if PGI had any more passion to break into a new crusade of making a FUN and ENGAGING game like it already is, then they wouldn't be so damn minimalistic and passive about how they take the direction and energy. I talk like I know a lot of **** but honestly I don't, I never played this game since the beginning but I honestly greatly enjoy this game. The only thing i see holding it back isn't mistakes or problems, it's just complete lack of vision to proceed.

As a long standing player of mech genre, I have many ideas myself. None would matter in the long run though because they're too proactive and i'm not in the mood for wasting my breath in a game forum like all other game forums. I'm just saying my disclaimer that I have ideas but won't mention them in my rant just because I want to rant. No this is not a slash at OP i'm just saying I know what this game's problem is and i'm not going to pitch in ideas just to verify myself in this essay of mine.

Edited by VulcanXIV, 21 February 2019 - 05:01 PM.

[GeminiWolf]

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

First, I'll be honest. Whenever anyone starts a new topic in a forum, they always have dreams of being The One that opens eyes and minds, and somehow enacts a change that improves the game for themselves and for all.

I'm certainly no different in that regard; I DO hope that someone at the developing studio listens and thinks long and hard about possible repairs/fixes/work-a-rounds for what I see as issues that are starting to compound within the game.

I'll state that I have doubts that MWO 2.0 will come to be, and that's because of the issues I see within MWO 1.0. It is possible that it will come about, and if that's the case, then I will happily get down on my knees to beg and plead that they take this golden opportunity to resolve the issues that plague MWO currently.

I can all but hear eyes rolling and that gusty sigh; "Ah, another one of THOSE..." Well.. yes. But I don't come into this without experience; I cut my teeth on Meridian 59, which was an MMORPG before the phrase had even been coined. This was, I believe, back in the early 1990's.
I've played in so many of them that I've lost count; Meridian, Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, both iterations of EverQuest, SWOTOR, WoW, D&DO, Conan, Warhammer, City of Heroes.. lots and lots.

I've seen them come, and I've seen them go; I've also took notice of what happened prior to the decline and eventual final power-off of the realms.

MWO problem #1: Everything's a Brawl

There are many different match types, but let's be honest... it all devolves into a brawl. Incursion? It's a brawl. Rarely if ever do you have light mechs doing their jobs and ferreting out cells to feed to their base's power-hungry systems. 99% of the time, everyone meets in the middle... forms firing lines along the back wall for LRM shelling... and the heavies and assaults stare at and poke at each-other from across a semi-narrow gorge. Occasionally tempers flare, and it'll turn into a Ballroom Blitz.

Domination? The only thing about this one is that the dance floor is pre-defined by what I have heard affectionately called 'the pee stain'. Everyone meets in the middle, and the piper starts to play. Ball-room blitz indeed.

Assault? Yep. Brawl. Everyone meets at squares on the map that rarely if ever change. There are places to go, and places you don't go. 'Death Valley' in one map... bad. The Citadel = good. The Basement= Generally considered bad, but I've participated in some REALLY fun 'Alamo Defenses' of the basement. Though honestly, that's a brawl in a -very- small area. And the point is to deny everyone not on your team access to the dance floor. It's only if the brawl starts to go sideways for a team that the Light mechs get chastized for not capturing the enemy base; if they do it any sooner, they get chastized for not contributing to the brawl and not sharing armor. Yes, I have been chastised for not sharing armor in a Locust Peanut Buter. It barely has armor to speak of.

Conquest? This is the 'Pub Crawl' of brawls, though the main dance hall seems to wind up at Theta. This one, though, is the closest to what I think the game could be. It shows the most promise, because it requires more than just 'stand and shoot' thinking.


MWO problem #2:It's not you, it's the Maps, baby...

The maps are sorely limited, and the paths therein are well-tread. HPG manifold comes up, everyone calls to push the top. Every map has their hot-spot that everyone will automatically go to. The fight always happens there, as any deviation from that formula will result in defeat. If you're lucky to get one spawn point, your team could have the fast route to the IWIN button. If not, then it'll be a slog to get there, and the other team will have to make some pretty interesting mistakes for you to have a chance.

MWO Problem #3: Mech specializations

Every mech is built for a purpose. Dakka builds. Piranha buzz-zaws. Nova sand-blasters. Mad Cat stompy-death. Spiders. Locust Peanut-Butter. A player builds a mech to suit a particular play style and then selects maps specifically to cater TO that play style.

The problem is that many specialty mechs are absolutely horri-bad elsewhere. For example, the Spider 5V. This mech has only two laser hard points. That's it. It doesn't have ECM. Doesn't have AMS. But you can up-rate the engine and make this 30 ton mech move very nearly as fast as a Locust.. and it has jump-jets. It also has an 80% capture buff. This, combined with the proper skill nodes makes this mech count as two when it comes to capturing the enemy base or resource nodes. But... while these maps DO happen, the vast majority of the player base chooses a map and fight type suitable for brawling. A Spider 5V is... really kinda awful anywhere else. You also don't get to choose a mech based on the map; you choose the mech first, and then run a (very high) risk of getting something the mech is ill-suited for. This forces the majority of the players to go for a brawling build or face the specter of being fundamentally useless.

And when the brawling players lose their map choice, hoo-BOY do they ever complain about the 'Skill-less scrubs in the LRM boats because they SUCK AT PLAYING THE GAME'.

MWO Problem #4: The 'Get Gud' mentality.

If you're not a brawler, or if you have an opinion that differs from the brawling.. you'll be told to 'Get Gud' and then roundly dismissed from further consideration. It's their preferred sand-box to play in, and anyone else isn't worth their time. Good luck getting any help to 'get gud', too. It's all about their own self-glory.

MWO Problem #5: Smaller player base

Because of the high skill-cap and rather... specific.. mentality of the current players, you either have to accept the fact that you'll be gristle for the meat grinder for a very long time.. possibly forever... or you'll lose interest and move on to a different game. Since there's a somewhat limited playerbase to choose from, you'll wind up having either extremely long wait times (assuming the match maker hasn't coughed up a hairball again...), or you'll be put in matches with vastly more experienced players. And used as a chew-toy rather directly.


So... what to do about it?

It's generally easier to give someone something, than it is to take it away... but taking something away is what I think has to be done.

One suggestion I have is to take away the capability of choosing the map and match type. You go in blind. You don't KNOW if you'll be in Rubelite.. or Terra Therma.. or HPG Manifold.. or Frozen City... Or Viridian Bog... and you won't know until you get there. You also won't know what you'll be doing here, either. Will it be Conquest? Incursion? Assault? Domination? It'll all be determined by the Great Khan RNG. Also, consider trying to come up with an algorithm that will generate maps on the fly, within certain limitations. No all-mountain peak maps with no walking room. The occasional tundra/taiga/plains should be fine, though.

What will this accomplish? Well, you'll see a wider variety of mechs being taken for starters. Since you won't know where you're going.. you might think twice about taking a pure LRM/ATM/MRM boat. You might build something with a little bit of a mix of weapons types to provide at least a marginal bit of functionality in all different terrain types. You'll also have to learn how to handle the different match types as well; you won't be able to select 'Skirmish' to exclusion because you're a big-bad brawler. Big-Bad-Brawlers can be shredded on the open-plains by ATM/LRM's. You'll also see a wider variety of mech loadouts from your team-mates as well. The matches will also be unpredictable. With a custom-generated map, you won't be able to use canned strategies for every map. No more 'rush the top' or 'keep out of the basement' on HPG manifold. I'm not saying get rid of those maps.. include them, too. But... spice it up a little (ok, spice it up a LOT) with unique maps that you'll never see again. Different worlds, different battlefields.. why would it always be Manifold, or Rubelite, or anything else? See what I'm getting at?

This lack of certainty... lack of choice.. will also stem the compaction of the Mech selection process. With the implicit bias towards brawling, the light and medium mechs tend to get chosen a bit less often, as they can't go toe to toe with the Heavies and Assaults. They're backstabbers. Harassers. Support units. Having no choice where you fight and how you fight would make it viable to choose them again. I've also seen folks use certain Medium mechs as LRM boats. Yes, I'm guilty of it too. The Huntsman can handle 3 ATM-12's or 3 LRM-20's. I've had a few 1000 point games that way. I've also been mulched for attempting it, because my own team elected not to radar lock onto the targets as a way to express their disfavor of such a choice.

A second suggestion is to reward people for doing their jobs. It's going to be excessively rare for a Light mech to crank out the kind of numbers that an Assault does (unless the other team is very foolish). If an Assault and Heavy mech's job is to dish out pain and property damage, then a Light's job is to capture resources, back-stab, harass. If a Light mech captures a point solo, then give them team points for doing so comparable to that of an Assault scoring a kill or doing a sizeable amount of damage. Make it directly analogous; If a point is nearly completely captured, then the first Light on the scene will get the kill, and KMDD for the capture; the others will get an Assist. Oh, and what I mentioned before... give a team bonus to everyone for locking on with their R keys.

I'd suggest also keeping the Tier system, but making it invisible to both the player and the general public. It also needs to be revamped rather badly; throw out whatever it looks at now, and come up with a way to grade how well everyone does their job. One of my former lance-mates explained to me that the current Tier is really little more than an age bar. Play long enough, and you'll eventually claw your way into Tier 1, even if you don't belong there.
Get rid of any reliance on win/loss ratio; these are things you can't control. Get rid of any reliance of the Kill vs. Death ratio as well, for the same reason. You can do your job beautifully, and still lose status because your team's Assault mechs got distracted by chasing squirrels, or worse.. gave up because their Blood Asp LRM boat got stuck on a map that made them little more than useless. Make this rating grade you on your chosen type.... and have a rating for each level of Mech. My 'Tier 1' rating (no, I don't have a Tier 1. I'm Tier 5, currently) should only be considered when I'm in a Light mech. If I decide to break out an Annihilator.. then I should be in Tier 5 for Assaults.. until I earn a higher rating for it. The coding for this really wouldn't be that hard. Define four variables, one for each level of Mech.. and use that variable as the basis for the Tier rating for that particular Mech style.

Yes, I do expect to be told to 'Get Gud'... and you know what? You're absolutely right. I DO need to 'Get Gud'. The problem is, you can't really 'Get Gud' when your Assaults are chasing squirrels (the light mechs) for swatting them on the backside... because the mediums weren't guarding the Assaults, the Heavies were wandering around the map as if they were lights, and the light mechs were busy exploding because they charged head on into the enemy Assault lance due to either suicidal tendencies or pure delusions of grandeur.

So.. I don't know if anyone will read this, let alone agree with it. This is just one person's opinion, based on years of experience elsewhere.

I really do like MWO, but.. she's showing signs that I've seen elsewhere. And they don't lead to a happy ending. I'm hoping MWO can be different in that.

-245 Trioxin

Damn it I went in reading this with the mentality that I was gonna snark the crap outta it...but I read it through and find it well thought out and pretty cool actually. My only comment with regards to not choosing maps or modes, this was how it was originally then the whiners on the forums...cried and whine about not being able to vote for the maps and modes so we are where we are now. Funny thing is most of the people who whine to get their way with regards how a game is, are the same ones you will find very hard to retain no matter what you do because they will eventually start whining about something else, never happy with anything, they like their life like that. My opinion, may not be yours, flame away.

[Wil McCullough]

Everything becomes a "brawl" because when both sides consist of nom-renewable assets ( single spawn mechanic), removing your opponent's assets from the board becomes the most effective way to win.

The deathball happens because bringing more weapons and armor is the most effective way to win "brawls". It has a snowball effect because the more of your opponent's pieces you remove, the bigger the percentage loss he suffers per piece removed. You go 3-0 early, you have 33% more guns and armor than the other guy. 6-0 and you have 100% more.

Mwo is one of those games where big, early damage is the win condition. That's why the winning team is often the one that is more aggressive. The winning strategy is as simple as that. Get shooting as quickly as possible and keep shooting as long as possible. The team that is forced to deviate from this is often the team that will lose.

If you face KCOM in fp or group (not sure if they still play though), they take this to the extreme. Individually they're not the greatest pilots. They're not a team of protons. But when 12 mechs just run at you while your lurmboats and "snipers" are still setting up, you'll get crushed.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 21 February 2019 - 08:00 PM.