47 replies to this topic

[InfinityBall]

I suspect that this guy is using "brawl" in the sense of "just a fight" (largely ignoring things like objectives), not the specialized MWO sense of the word

[GeminiWolf]

Joshua McEvedy, on 21 February 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

Flashback to October 2015:

https://mwomercs.com...ting-confirmed/

Bottom line...in the early days there was no map voting and it was awful. The community demanded map voting and Papa Russ delivered.

5 Whiners on the Forums demanded it, I for one was against it

[InspectorG]

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

...(you played a lot of mmorpgs)...

MWO problem #1: Everything's a Brawl


Domination? The only thing about this one is that the dance floor is pre-defined by what I have heard affectionately called 'the pee stain'. Everyone meets in the middle, and the piper starts to play. Ball-room blitz indeed.


Conquest? This is the 'Pub Crawl' of brawls, though the main dance hall seems to wind up at Theta. This one, though, is the closest to what I think the game could be. It shows the most promise, because it requires more than just 'stand and shoot' thinking.


MWO problem #2:It's not you, it's the Maps, baby...

The maps are sorely limited, and the paths therein are well-tread.

MWO Problem #3: Mech specializations


MWO Problem #4: The 'Get Gud' mentality.

If you're not a brawler, or if you have an opinion that differs from the brawling.. you'll be told to 'Get Gud' and then roundly dismissed from further consideration. It's their preferred sand-box to play in, and anyone else isn't worth their time. Good luck getting any help to 'get gud', too. It's all about their own self-glory.

MWO Problem #5: Smaller player base

Because of the high skill-cap and rather... specific.. mentality of the current players, you either have to accept the fact that you'll be gristle for the meat grinder for a very long time.. possibly forever... or you'll lose interest and move

I largely agree with your premises overall but you may be lacking some context about MWO currently.

I started with Phantasy Star Online so the 'grind' in MWO doesnt seem too bad to me, DESPITE that leveling up mechs before was easier(3 mech must/ 3 tiers of skills)with the previous system. It was nice for casuals like me but MWO needed a Cbill sink.

Problem 1: Brawl.
I have to disagree. Brawl is a highly aggressive situation at Close Quarters. This can happen in Scouting(so ive heard) and FW.

Solo is more a devolution into brain-stem tactics and sub-par skill which represents the average(Jarl's List)
PGI DID DELIVER the 'thinking man's shooter' and i think most dont like that they cant measure up.

Solo run-to-the-middle, NASCAR, roasting marshmallows at Camp Cowardice, Rabbit Runs(great if you are in a fast mech, less so in a ftamech...depending), or... if the stars align correctly, sometimes you get 2 random teams that face off and use comms and skill to have a good match.

The last one is the Gem of Solo and is where the fun is. But it is rare these days.

Conquest and Dominatiopn are the better Objectives. Assault was always a joke. Incursion i never bothered to learn that tactics, Escort...well...bye.,

Problem 2: maps. Yes. The community offered to help. PGI said no. Here we are.
Spawn points would be the EZ fix.
Smaller maps the other.
re-configuring current maps for variety was offered but PGI may never bite on that.

Problem 3: Mech Specialization.
Well...what did players expect with full customization? Goods will ALWAYS MinMax, and bads will try to copy, or LARP and cry their LARPing doesnt work. And as much as i hate to say, this IP warrants a little wiggle room for the LARPers.

Problem 4: git Gud mentality.
Players need to suck it up. Dont like it? Go play Mario Party. The 'Thinking Man's Shooter is subject to the Pareto Principle.

I make the harsh statement because its a Zero-Sum game with no respawns, and that makes MWO unique.
Bads who cant accept that casual play likely wont cut it cry about business model and paying to keep the lights on for all the comp players.

No, im not a comp or particularly good at this game. I just accept that some games are inherently harder than others.

A couple weeks ago i casually asked pugmates in the beginning of drops how often they look at their MinMaps.

Most said they, "didnt have time to look at the Map." and "cant bother when things are shooting at them"

Let the above sink in. Also, the Academy/Tutorial doesnt address it either.

Problem 5: small population.

This exacerbates some of the problems above. But BT/MW has always been a niche product and likely always will be. It is boardgame legend and an early multiplayer online(LAN / arcade) pioneer. Its never gonna be Call of Doody.

Lets see what MW5 brings. With multi-player co-op, maybe i get some of that PSO feel but with mechs instead of RaMars, HuCasts, and FoNewearls?

[RickySpanish]

That's a fair assessment of the game OP, and it does seem that many of the solutions to these problems are now unreachable due to a dwindling player base. The honest truth is that this game has been around for a long time, and this is probably as feature complete as it is going to get. There's lots of reasons for that, not the least of which is the Crysis game engine being (allegedly) hard to develop for. Hopefully MW5 brings in a huge chunk of cash and those of us wanting a more tactical experience might find solice there. Who knows? By the way, you might find faction play a bit more interesting, just make sure you join a group to do it.

[Wil McCullough]

InfinityBall, on 21 February 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

I suspect that this guy is using "brawl" in the sense of "just a fight" (largely ignoring things like objectives), not the specialized MWO sense of the word

Yup i know. When i wrote about aggression i didn't mean getting in the opponents' grilles. I meant damaging them as soon as possible and getting into positions to keep applying that damage.

If everyone in your team rides their heat bar like a bronco, you will win far more often than not.

[JediPanther]

thievingmagpi, on 21 February 2019 - 09:54 AM, said:

Actually those are some pretty hefty quirks on top of a very mobile chassis.

Lights that are worse than the 5v:

Every other Spider.

Every Raven.

Most Panthers.

Any Osiris that isn't the 4d

Most Locusts.

Jenners that aren't the F.


Kit Fox

All those mechs you name only support my point. There is no other mech in mwo with ct only weapons or less than just two hard points. Even the 1v has four more hard points despite only one ct hard point. find me a mech in mwo with less than what the spider 5v has for armament and location. You can't.

[thievingmagpi]

JediPanther, on 22 February 2019 - 08:55 AM, said:

All those mechs you name only support my point. There is no other mech in mwo with ct only weapons or less than just two hard points. Even the 1v has four more hard points despite only one ct hard point. find me a mech in mwo with less than what the spider 5v has for armament and location. You can't.

All those other mechs are worse than the 5v. It doesn't support your point unless your point was "The 5v is not the worst mech in the game".

[Joshua McEvedy]

GeminiWolf, on 21 February 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

5 Whiners on the Forums demanded it, I for one was against it

Really? Hmmm...there are a lot more than five in this thread from 2015 alone:

https://mwomercs.com...ng-system-good/

And this one:

https://mwomercs.com...-map-selection/

Edited by Joshua McEvedy, 22 February 2019 - 12:44 PM.

[adamts01]

thievingmagpi, on 22 February 2019 - 12:20 PM, said:

All those other mechs are worse than the 5v. It doesn't support your point unless your point was "The 5v is not the worst mech in the game".

Ravens aren't bad. The 2X was some great energy quirks and does very well with either 2LPLs or 2 Larges and 2ERMLs/2MLs. The 2LL/2ML build is one of my best performing lights. The 4X with a RAC5 or UAC10 is vicious for adding great dps along side the big guys. They just don't do the typical light role. I wouldn't even call them "support" builds, as they can win trades and engage from the beginning of the fight till the end, unlike most of the fast lights.

Locusts are the balls. They have so many strong builds. 6ml or 5ml can trade from the beginning of the match, and have the speed to keep the little SL/MG lights at an ideal trading range. They're just soooo good. The PB got some new life thanks to Stealth Armor. They're probably my favorite lights in the game.

The Kit Fox is very durable and can mount some serious weapons for mid/end game brawling. 3MPLs and 4MGs plus ECM and AMS, or SRM spam. They're like slower Oxides with MUCH more durability.

[Y E O N N E]

Locust 3V is probably *the worst* 'Mech in the game with zero niches where it can be considered good. The SDR-5V at least has capping and it would win a damage output contest, too, thanks to the cooldown quirk.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 22 February 2019 - 01:07 PM.

[Spheroid]

@Yeonne: Years ago I used the 3V as a Long Tom target where the leg durability was a slight advantage over the other Locusts. I agree its not a good mech but I tried to find some use for it. It only needed to live long enough to see the mushroom cloud do its divine work.

[JediPanther]

thievingmagpi, on 22 February 2019 - 12:20 PM, said:

All those other mechs are worse than the 5v. It doesn't support your point unless your point was "The 5v is not the worst mech in the game".

Those mechs again prove they are suipior to the 5v and you fail to prove other wise. Again you fail to name a single mech with ct only weapons or less hard points than the 5v. NO MECH HAS LESS THAN the spider 5v on this point. NONE. All the quirks and skill trees don't matter.

[Water Bear]

I'm not sure those points are actually the causes of problems as much as symptoms. It is my belief that central blocking features in maps (blocking LOS and travel, I mean) essentially cause Nascar, when you correctly take account of player behavior.

Also, the issues depend on game mode. Community Warfare is essentially dead from what I can tell because the C win rate is what, 90%? That speaks to some deep imbalance that either the community or the developers or both have become apathetic to.

[Y E O N N E]

Clan win rate is high right now because IS is over-populated and most of the good players have gone Clan for faster matches.

Historically, Clans have won most events for the same reason.

[Asylum Choir]

Joshua McEvedy, on 21 February 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

Flashback to October 2015:

https://mwomercs.com...ting-confirmed/

Bottom line...in the early days there was no map voting and it was awful. The community demanded map voting and Papa Russ delivered.

That's your opinion.
I LOATHE skirmish.
My most played game type is skirmish.
I have NEVER selected skirmish.
Other players have forced me to play the mode they want to play.
How is that good?

The problem with mwo is twofold really.
# the playerbase.
Massively ultracasual (as in doesn't really engage or care) and massively anti social. People just won't teamwork, this is massively evident in FP with herds of solo who just won't talk or work together.
Normal players: "Hey guys did you know it's more fun to play in a group? You can hop onto each factions TS servers that people have set up for your benefit out of their own pockets, there's also lot of great units to join and play with"
Super solos: "Why should I?/I don't have time/I don't want to" result of this: "I keep getting rekt by groups/it's so unfair they have voice comms/I just want to shootzorz, don't want to play like it's a job etc"

#2 Pgi's utter failure to understand this mindset. they keep trying to make a game for normal people who can be social, that naturally don't see gaming as a solo only experience.
Trying to make FP is a mistake, as most of the playerbase don't have the mindset for that type of thing. Normal behaviour don't fly in an environ that encourages the creation of a solo only queue in a multiplayer online team based game.
As a side result, the skill as people put it and the group players have ditched the game en masse. This is TERMINAL for an online game, these types of games live through community. Hard to have this when most of it refuse to do so.
I think MW5 will do well simply because it caters to the anti social super solo.

Edited by Asylum Choir, 23 February 2019 - 11:08 AM.

[Phoenix Lead]

You know man, it used to be that MWO didn't have a map voting screen...

I really, REALLY wish we'd return to those days.

[Water Bear]

Y E O N N E, on 23 February 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

Clan win rate is high right now because IS is over-populated and most of the good players have gone Clan for faster matches.

Historically, Clans have won most events for the same reason.

From 4 years ago, during the CW beta: https://twitter.com/...589495349657601

And last I checked, according to Russ' own posts, C win rate is still above IS win rate.

This is not a recent phenomenon.

Edit: Phrased another way, in 4 years time I am not aware of a post by Russ that indicates the IS has ever won more than C.

Edited by Water Bear, 23 February 2019 - 12:00 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

JediPanther, on 22 February 2019 - 04:02 PM, said:

Those mechs again prove they are suipior to the 5v and you fail to prove other wise. Again you fail to name a single mech with ct only weapons or less hard points than the 5v. NO MECH HAS LESS THAN the spider 5v on this point. NONE. All the quirks and skill trees don't matter.

Yes, all those mechs are worse. It's pretty easy.



Spider 5k- trash. 4B absolutely useless.

Panther 10p 2B, 2M. Can't get much worse than that.

Raven- slow, poor agility, terrible hitboxes.

Javelin 10n- why does this exist?

Piranha A/B- LOL

Osiris 1p- 4/2/2 is a **** loadout. its agility and speed don't save it

Locust 1v, 3v, 1m- garbage.


So yeah. Having "only" 2 hardpoints isn't really a huge limiting factor compared to others like bad hitboxes, poor hardpoint sync, low engine cap, poor agility etc. When it comes to solo queue, good hitboxes and agility mean alot.

[The6thMessenger]

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO problem #1: Everything's a Brawl

What games are you playing man? I want to be in those, instead of the ******** poke-fest I'm in.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO problem #2:It's not you, it's the Maps, baby...

Yeah well, not all. There's problems, but not like it can't be worked with.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO Problem #3: Mech specializations

That's the game. If it's any consolation, it's because they work.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO Problem #4: The 'Get Gud' mentality.

It's not always true, but not always false either.

Sometimes it is mechanical error, but a lot of times it's operator error. We get LRM is OP time to time, Locust is OP too, and often it's always the newbie. And usually the solution is always play the mech or the weapon system first before they talk.

Why don't you get with the program, and get the handle of the game first? Not that I am insinuating that you don't know, but maybe you're simply not playing it like it's supposed to play, and it's hard to make anything work when they aren't intended to work that way. And how it works is (or at least should) limited by min-max trends, by meta.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

MWO Problem #5: Smaller player base

Yeah, that's a problem. Probably PGI's fault.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

One suggestion I have is to take away the capability of choosing the map and match type. You go in blind. You don't KNOW if you'll be in Rubelite.. or Terra Therma.. or HPG Manifold.. or Frozen City... Or Viridian Bog... and you won't know until you get there. You also won't know what you'll be doing here, either. Will it be Conquest? Incursion? Assault? Domination? It'll all be determined by the Great Khan RNG. Also, consider trying to come up with an algorithm that will generate maps on the fly, within certain limitations. No all-mountain peak maps with no walking room. The occasional tundra/taiga/plains should be fine, though.

Spoiler

What will this accomplish? Well, you'll see a wider variety of mechs being taken for starters. Since you won't know where you're going.. you might think twice about taking a pure LRM/ATM/MRM boat. You might build something with a little bit of a mix of weapons types to provide at least a marginal bit of functionality in all different terrain types. You'll also have to learn how to handle the different match types as well; you won't be able to select 'Skirmish' to exclusion because you're a big-bad brawler. Big-Bad-Brawlers can be shredded on the open-plains by ATM/LRM's. You'll also see a wider variety of mech loadouts from your team-mates as well. The matches will also be unpredictable. With a custom-generated map, you won't be able to use canned strategies for every map. No more 'rush the top' or 'keep out of the basement' on HPG manifold. I'm not saying get rid of those maps.. include them, too. But... spice it up a little (ok, spice it up a LOT) with unique maps that you'll never see again. Different worlds, different battlefields.. why would it always be Manifold, or Rubelite, or anything else? See what I'm getting at?

This lack of certainty... lack of choice.. will also stem the compaction of the Mech selection process. With the implicit bias towards brawling, the light and medium mechs tend to get chosen a bit less often, as they can't go toe to toe with the Heavies and Assaults. They're backstabbers. Harassers. Support units. Having no choice where you fight and how you fight would make it viable to choose them again. I've also seen folks use certain Medium mechs as LRM boats. Yes, I'm guilty of it too. The Huntsman can handle 3 ATM-12's or 3 LRM-20's. I've had a few 1000 point games that way. I've also been mulched for attempting it, because my own team elected not to radar lock onto the targets as a way to express their disfavor of such a choice.

Well, that's one problem. Sure I guess, people can't vote therefore they try to build that tends to work at most range. But being put on the worst map for your build does happen, and it didn't deterred other players.

I'd rather we could vote only for 2 maps at a time, and against 4 different game-modes.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

A second suggestion is to reward people for doing their jobs.

CBills and XP eventually lose meaning when you got enough of it.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

I'd suggest also keeping the Tier system, but making it invisible to both the player and the general public. It also needs to be revamped rather badly; throw out whatever it looks at now, and come up with a way to grade how well everyone does their job. One of my former lance-mates explained to me that the current Tier is really little more than an age bar. Play long enough, and you'll eventually claw your way into Tier 1, even if you don't belong there.

If this it's just an Age Bar, why bother making it even invisible? What effect could it possibly have by being invisible?

There's a saying: "If your presence doesn't make an impact, your absence doesn't make any difference".

I'd rather the PSR system be revamped.

245 Trioxin, on 21 February 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

Get rid of any reliance on win/loss ratio; these are things you can't control. Get rid of any reliance of the Kill vs. Death ratio as well, for the same reason.

That's just for statistics really, it's just a score, a result of what you are doing.

I know other assaults may be dumb, morons that chase the squirrel, Atlases with LRMs and not enough backup weapons. Do you know what Systematic Error is? Well, it's a consistent type of error which subjects everybody, so it's not exactly that of an issue in measurement. Everyone is subjected to it, people will have bad games time to time, so it's somewhat fair.

Given enough games, the trend will show itself. I don't have much consideration for KDR, for any amount of damage can kill, but WLR show how much of an impact you are.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 February 2019 - 12:57 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

I would love to get poke-fests instead of the constant potato rotato tornado.