64 replies to this topic

[R Valentine]

You guys got us. You had a good laugh. The prank was 10/10. We all got a good chuckle. Hohoho. Hahaha. Hehehe. Heeheehee. Humhumhum. Huehuehue. Hohaheheehumhuehooo!

Can you please revert the side torso dissipation nerf and heat spike now?

[Antares102]

Tweet Russ.. nothing else will work.
PGI has never changed anythign through forum posts.

[thievingmagpi]

PGI listens to its community!

[JediPanther]

Antares102, on 28 February 2019 - 11:59 AM, said:

Tweet Russ.. nothing else will work.
PGI has never changed anythign through forum posts.

Wrong. It worked one time only. Took nearly two years of daily forum posting and twiter spaming russ but the Catapults had their vcrs removed. Now however you are quite correct. Unless you twitter Russ and get him when he's 'in the right frame of mind' you have a .000000000000000009% of getting your change into the game.

Edited by JediPanther, 28 February 2019 - 12:50 PM.

[Phoenix 72]

I do not know how often I was at 80% heat, lost a side torso, shut down and was killed. Or when I had override on, was at 80% heat, lost a side torso and went boom. So yeah, I have switched to using a lot more Standard Engines. The Light Engines just feel like so much of a drawback now. Might as well use XL instead of Light.

[Khobai]

yep the change needs to be reverted

instead of nerfing CXL and LFE they needed to buff ISXL and STD

the pre-nerf CXL and LFE should be the baseline that all other engines need to compete with. Not the other way around.

Edited by Khobai, 28 February 2019 - 12:55 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Darakor Stormwind, on 28 February 2019 - 12:51 PM, said:

I do not know how often I was at 80% heat, lost a side torso, shut down and was killed. Or when I had override on, was at 80% heat, lost a side torso and went boom. So yeah, I have switched to using a lot more Standard Engines. The Light Engines just feel like so much of a drawback now. Might as well use XL instead of Light.

I hate to say it but I think this is the point. All XLs or LFEs tend to result in death be it Clan or IS so no more whining about IS XLs being not fair, etc, etc. What fustrates me is that Clan mechs, equipment and tech has been massively nerfed over the years to offset the IS XL vulnerable, hell IS structure and armor quirks started out as a way to offset the XL advantages the clan had, yet now that Clan XL side torso loss almost always results in the Clan mech dying within 5-10 seconds of losing a side torso, isn't it time they dialed back the nerfs on the Clan weapons. I think it is pretty ridiculous that I run into heat issues on a Clan mech equipped using 2xER PPC and 4xER MLs and equipped with 27 DHS. I mean I got a bunch of IS mechs sporting the same firepower running 16-18 DHS without any heat issues at all.

[Maddermax]

They could tone it down a bit, but it does bring some balance and reasons to take STD and XL engines that had been requested for ages. I’d lower the heat spike by about a third, but leave it as a serious problem if you get your side popped while redlining.

End of the day, there has to be an actual drawback beyond a few slots, or STD engines are pretty much obsolete outside of HGauss and 4xLBX10 builds.

Edited by Maddermax, 28 February 2019 - 04:51 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Darakor Stormwind, on 28 February 2019 - 12:51 PM, said:

I do not know how often I was at 80% heat, lost a side torso, shut down and was killed. Or when I had override on, was at 80% heat, lost a side torso and went boom. So yeah, I have switched to using a lot more Standard Engines. The Light Engines just feel like so much of a drawback now. Might as well use XL instead of Light.

Video or it didnt happen

It can be anywhere form 75% to 80%, dependent on the number of HS in the engine, both eHS and HS put in the slots.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Making LFE and CXL worse =/= making STD and ISXL good.

It's the same logic that went into declaring 'Mechs "XL safe" back in the day. All that really meant was the CT hitbox was so terrible there was basically no reason not to run XL, because you'd always get center-cored first no matter how you played. The solution that worked, surprising absolutely no one with a brain, was to fix the hitboxes so that the 'Mech in question would actually be worth taking STD or LFE on. Thinking specifically of the Catapult and Dragon here. Note how the problem was solved by making a bad thing better rather than by nerfing things that nobody (outside the balance guy who barely if ever plays) thought were OP.

This should not require rocket science. The solution is not to nerf LFE or CXL- LFE is pretty much the only thing making several IS 'Mechs viable, and Omnimechs across the board have CXLs locked (which rather defeats the "make STD a viable choice!" argument). All the nerf accomplished was to make a whole bunch of 'Mechs suck because the engines that they either need or simply can't change got hammered. Both engines already have drawbacks in the form of mobility and dissipation penalties when a side is lost. A surprise instadeath reflex check was not necessary... and throwing that nerf in did not make ISXL or STD suddenly no longer suck. The optimal solution here should be obvious: roll the stupid "gotcha!" nerf back, and buff ISXL and STD. Damage transfer or durability quirks might be a good place to start.

Besides, "20% of your heat sinks got blown up so all the heat they were dissipating magically jumped back into all the other sinks they're no longer connected to" doesn't even make any bloody sense.

The good equipment should be considered the baseline, to which the bad equipment should be elevated. Doing it the other way 'round just makes people want to stop playing.

[Tarl Cabot]

The few videos I have seen where players had complained had the players running redline, between 90-100% in a brawl type situation while losing a ST, running with override disabled about firing again. For many mechs that ST loss equates to around 20% approximate Heat Bar/scale removal, with that percentage going lower based on the number of HS put into the engine HS slots.

https://mwomercs.com...12#entry6219112

Quote

15 teHS (this is a Timberwolf with only HS in the engine, both base/engine slots.

Heat bar/scale: Base 30 + 10eHS + 0.5*5 eslotHS = 30 + 2*10 + 2.50 = 52.50 heat scale/bar = 100 %

Destroyed ST = 40% tHS = 6 teHS lost out of 15 teHS leaving 60% teHS
6 teHS lost, does that number actual 10 eHS? I bet it does but since the was removed from the bottom it never really affected anyone. (answered the question with the patch notes listed below)


****Base 30 + 4 eHS remaining + 5 eslotHS = new heat scale/bar = 30 + 2*4 + 0.5*5 = 40.5 = New 100% heat scale/bar

40.5/52.5 = 77.14% of original Heat scale/bar left, losing 22.76% of the heat scale/bar.

*****WIth a cXL/LFE engine with only 10 teHS in it, 4 out of 10 HS lost.
30 + 2*6 teHS = 30 + 12 = 42

42/50 = 84% if the heat scale/bar actually scaled this max %. Technically the mech lost 16% of its heat scale bar when it lost 40% of the heat sinks. But that loss was originally reflected by coming off the bottom so there was no real, instant negative effect of losing even the engine total heatsinks.

The current STorso destroyed mechanic should stay in place but make those non-STD engines equivalent to what occurs when the 1st ST is lost.

isXL 40% Engine heat D / 25% movement
cXL 25-30% EHD / 20% movement
LFE 15-20% EHD / 15% movement

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6213917

Would I expect PGI to reverse the decision to remove the Heat Sink loss from the top instead of the bottom, as the original setup? No, I do not but that does not mean we can not change those percentages while equalizing the engines when a ST is lost. And since they have shown they can split up the HS components, it is also possible to do that with the penalties, such besides the movement/agility penalty, break up that currently 40% combo dissipation rate AND Heat Bar/Scale capacity reduction into separate components.

isXL 40% Engine heat D / 25% movement / % Heat Bar/scale capacity loss
cXL 25-30% EHD / 20% movement / ""
LFE 15-20% EHD / 15% movement / ""

[FupDup]

I've been using a Jester with a STD engine lately and while I am able to typically lose both sides before losing the CT, that extra time surviving as a walking stick is very short lived. I virtually always die quickly after I get turned into a stick, because by that point most or all of my team is dead and I'm surrounded by angry reds.

Beyond my derpy Jester build also note that some of the strongest mechs in the game use STD engines (double HGR, quad LB 10-X, etc.). An item not being picked as frequently does not always equate to that item being useless.

[Sagara Sousuke 011011001]

Angel of Annihilation, on 28 February 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

I hate to say it but I think this is the point. All XLs or LFEs tend to result in death be it Clan or IS so no more whining about IS XLs being not fair, etc, etc. What fustrates me is that Clan mechs, equipment and tech has been massively nerfed over the years to offset the IS XL vulnerable, hell IS structure and armor quirks started out as a way to offset the XL advantages the clan had, yet now that Clan XL side torso loss almost always results in the Clan mech dying within 5-10 seconds of losing a side torso, isn't it time they dialed back the nerfs on the Clan weapons. I think it is pretty ridiculous that I run into heat issues on a Clan mech equipped using 2xER PPC and 4xER MLs and equipped with 27 DHS. I mean I got a bunch of IS mechs sporting the same firepower running 16-18 DHS without any heat issues at all.

Regarding Clan vs IS, it seems the better approach would have been to change the queue system so that the clan side is a binary and the IS side is company (IE 10 vs 12)

[Stonefalcon]

Kiran Yagami, on 28 February 2019 - 11:52 AM, said:

You guys got us. You had a good laugh. The prank was 10/10. We all got a good chuckle. Hohoho. Hahaha. Hehehe. Heeheehee. Humhumhum. Huehuehue. Hohaheheehumhuehooo!

Can you please revert the side torso dissipation nerf and heat spike now?

This change was beneficial to the game. There is a direct punishment now for taking an LFE/CXL instead of using STD or XL.

If you can't adapt to a positive change perhaps go back to Hello Kitty?

[Prototelis]

Sagara Sousuke 011011001, on 28 February 2019 - 06:14 PM, said:

Regarding Clan vs IS, it seems the better approach would have been to change the queue system so that the clan side is a binary and the IS side is company (IE 10 vs 12)

NO.

[R Valentine]

Angel of Annihilation, on 28 February 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

I hate to say it but I think this is the point. All XLs or LFEs tend to result in death be it Clan or IS so no more whining about IS XLs being not fair, etc, etc. What fustrates me is that Clan mechs, equipment and tech has been massively nerfed over the years to offset the IS XL vulnerable, hell IS structure and armor quirks started out as a way to offset the XL advantages the clan had, yet now that Clan XL side torso loss almost always results in the Clan mech dying within 5-10 seconds of losing a side torso, isn't it time they dialed back the nerfs on the Clan weapons. I think it is pretty ridiculous that I run into heat issues on a Clan mech equipped using 2xER PPC and 4xER MLs and equipped with 27 DHS. I mean I got a bunch of IS mechs sporting the same firepower running 16-18 DHS without any heat issues at all.

They could have skipped all of that by not gimping the ISXL to begin with. Everything they've done since ISXL even came out has been a bandaid. And then clans came out and it was GG no-re. They should have changed the ISXL years ago. What they're doing now just makes all engines bad.

[Dee Eight]

If they can make active stealth armor a constant heat per second, they can also make a lost side torso holding an LFE or cXL a constant heat per second. In Battletech, two engine crits was a constant 10 heat per turn while running until repaired...turns were 10 seconds, thus... in this real time game it could be 1 heat per second constant heat load while powered up.

[R Valentine]

Dee Eight, on 28 February 2019 - 07:27 PM, said:

If they can make active stealth armor a constant heat per second, they can also make a lost side torso holding an LFE or cXL a constant heat per second. In Battletech, two engine crits was a constant 10 heat per turn while running until repaired...turns were 10 seconds, thus... in this real time game it could be 1 heat per second constant heat load while powered up.

Ugh, no. Lore BS got us into this mess. It sure as hell ain't getting us out.

[Mystere]

Prototelis, on 28 February 2019 - 06:30 PM, said:

NO. YES! YES! YES!

FTFY!

Kiran Yagami, on 28 February 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

Ugh, no. Lore BS got us into this mess. It sure as hell ain't getting us out.

It could be reasonably argued that unimaginative adaptation of lore is what got us into this mess.

[Phoenix 72]

Tarl Cabot, on 28 February 2019 - 05:14 PM, said:

Video or it didnt happen

I know that quote is supposed to take care of trolls, but it essentially shuts down any kind of discussion on any topic that one person does not have a video for.

I do not film my MWO games. I am not narcissistic enough to want to rewatch my games, I would rather play new games and I have no ambitions to become an MWO internet sensation. I also have no video of my birth, and I am reasonably sure that happened. Unless I am just a high advanced chat bot, of course. You never know.

I am also on the autistic spectrum. Sorry, no video exists of me receiving the results. I go to work every day. Sorry, again, no video. Darn, am I happy that my employer has much lower standards for arguments than you do.

Either way, your later post clears up some of the math, but that does not change my experience. First of all, is that info current? Did they not change the way heatsinks work recently, so that all heatsinks provide the same benefit, no matter whether they are engine-heatsinks or additional heatsinks? Or do I misremember a recent patch?

Me blowing up with overheating mostly happens on my Laser Vomit Crab(s) and Marauder IIC (again, Laser Vomit). In both cases, I have a lot of additional heatsinks in the side torso's that also go boom. I tend to evenly distribute everything over my Mech, I have problems with asynchronous builds (autistic spectrum). So when I lose a side torso, I tend to lose about half of my heat sinks as well.

Of course I cannot be sure whether I judged my heat scale correctly to within 1 or 2%, but beyond that, I know what happened to me. And I did not enjoy it. Don't think it is an improvement.