137 replies to this topic

[HammerMaster]

thievingmagpi, on 03 March 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

yeah, learn to aim.



reminder again that "try hards" is just bads slang for "anyone better than me"

Nothing in my statement required that slight by you.
Yet you take offense to "try hard".
Keep being a part of the problem sir. Thanks.

Edited by HammerMaster, 03 March 2019 - 01:32 PM.

[Jman5]

Nightbird, on 03 March 2019 - 11:27 AM, said:

Those results are biased because you played with the intention of posting the results, if you want to share your LRM accuracy, just take a screen shots of your stats page. With all LRM weapons. Don't worry, we'll disregard weapons you haven't used much.

I mean, most people don't use LRM10s to begin with, LRM 15s and 20s without artemis is what you normally see, so the spread is 100% worse than what you're doing.

That's not necessarily bad though, 500 damage with LRMs is like 200 damage with direct fire...

Those numbers are certainly what I feel is the upper spectrum of what you can expect from LRM 10s in the current balance. Like I said earlier my LRM 10A stats were 49.17%. The point was to disprove that a wildly high number were just missing through no fault of the player. If that were the case no amount of me being careful would matter because I can't control that.

That's why I said that with missiles current balance I can see it settling into the 40s and 50s. As for my weapon stats, I'll post it but they suffer the same problem my LRM 10 stats suffer from. They're old as dirt and mostly predate all the LRM velocity buffs and skill tree.



Here, I put all my missiles into a spreadsheet instead of posting 5 pages worth of screenshots. As you can see the reason I used the LRM 10A stats was because I had an enormous amount of games with them.

The numbers are almost all in that 40-50 range. You can see the LRM-20A was only 2% less than the LRM-10A. Again I would like to emphasize that these are primarily old numbers from when LRMs went 160 m/s vs today where you can get them up to about 220.

I think it's worth noting my direct fire IS SRM numbers aren't really all that much better and my MRMs are about in line with LRMs.

Sorry I don't have Clan LRM 20 stats without artemis. I think it's silly to spend all that tonnage on lrms and then skimp on artemis. I suppose I could play a few, but then you would say I was trying extra hard to make them hit.

Now that I've shared my stats can you show me the stats of someone who isn't a derp but is only getting 25-30% accuracy with their lrms? Because to me that doesn't make sense.

Edited by Jman5, 03 March 2019 - 02:39 PM.

[Nightbird]

Jman5, on 03 March 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:

Those numbers are certainly what I feel is the upper spectrum of what you can expect from LRM 10s in the current balance. Like I said earlier my LRM 10A stats were 49.17%. The point was to disprove that a wildly high number were just missing through no fault of the player. If that were the case no amount of me being careful would matter because I can't control that.

That's why I said that with missiles current balance I can see it settling into the 40s and 50s. As for my weapon stats, I'll post it but they suffer the same problem my LRM 10 stats suffer from. They're old as dirt and mostly predate all the LRM velocity buffs and skill tree.



Here, I put all my missiles into a spreadsheet instead of posting 5 pages worth of screenshots. As you can see the reason I used the LRM 10A stats was because I had an enormous amount of games with them.

The numbers are almost all in that 40-50 range. You can see the LRM-20A was only 2% less than the LRM-10A. Again I would like to emphasize that these are primarily old numbers from when LRMs went 160 m/s vs today where you can get them up to about 220.

I think it's worth noting my direct fire IS SRM numbers aren't really all that much better and my MRMs are about in line with LRMs.

Sorry I don't have Clan LRM 20 stats without artemis. I think it's silly to spend all that tonnage on lrms and then skimp on artemis. I suppose I could play a few, but then you would say I was trying extra hard to make them hit.

Now that I've shared my stats can you show me the stats of someone who isn't a derp but is only getting 25-30% accuracy with their lrms? Because to me that doesn't make sense.

Well, does anyone else feel that taking 15% off the average accuracy of a 99.987 percentile player is too much for a player base average accuracy rate?

https://leaderboard..../search?u=Jman5

[Jman5]

Nightbird, on 03 March 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

Well, does anyone else feel that taking 15% off the average accuracy of a 99.987 percentile player is too much for a player base average accuracy rate?

https://leaderboard..../search?u=Jman5

They are lock-on weapons there is only so much I can do. I think I would rather see other players lrm stats instead of you just arbitrarily docking 15% accuracy from my old scores.

Edited by Jman5, 03 March 2019 - 03:21 PM.

[Nightbird]

Jman5, on 03 March 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

They are lock-on weapons there is only so much I can do. I think I would rather see other players lrm stats instead of you just arbitrarily docking 15% accuracy from my old scores.

I might actually need to call BS on your scores, PGI tracks "Fired" as the number of times the weapon is fired, not the number of missiles, and hit/accuracy is based on if even 1 missile out of the volley managed a hit.

Please post a screenshot, for example, in mine, a 55-56% PGI accuracy translates into 43-44% of the missiles actually hit (C-LRM15 and LRM 15 below).

Edited by Nightbird, 03 March 2019 - 04:19 PM.

[panzer1b]

Since its easier to explain, ill tell you what has to happen for me to even consider bringing AMS on a mech in this game. 95% of the time i carry AMS is purely to counter narcs (AMS does shoot down NARC unless that changed recently), and in the mechs that carry it its mostly in situations where i have 1-1.5t leftover that i cannot fill with anything useful due to slot limits (IS DHS is 3 slots).

That said, on some slow movers ill drop a engine rating or 2 if it gives me a ton or so and i can actually fit the AMS cause of spare slots since in my experience 1-2 KPH is meaningless. If its a assault you really dont NEED it to go over 60 if your positioning is correct . I run QP with some 55-58kph mechs and have no trouble not getting left behind unless entire team is linebackers or faster (which never happens in QP, at worst you get a full lance of mediums which leave all the fattys behind so i still have 3 others to hang with, just need to resist any urges to snipe or hold a position if i that slow).

AMS really is not worth even a single DHS imo since the entire meta revolves around either single exposure poking or pushing with sustained DPS, both roles where LRMs are at worst a minor nuissance. If you poke quickly, fire an alfa and hide, LRMs cant lock you period (assuming you arent NARCd or UAVd ofc), and well if you are in a push, anyone dumb enough to try and stare at you and keep you locked will get their CT cired out in seconds and kaput before the LRMs even hit you.

So yeah, outside of FP on maps where i fully expect a team to bring NARCs and LRM, im not even gonna consider carrying AMS unless its literally a case where mounting it is insignificant drawback such as loosing 1-2KPH by dropping 1-2 engine ratings, or on mechs that are now (post ammo count update) carrying so much ammo that ill never actually use it all up in a QP game (some have dropped a ton or so for a AMS or DHS depending on how hot it was b4).

[HammerMaster]

Meta pundit state 1-1.5 ton is useless if it is NOT based only helping ammo, heatsinks ,armor.
Meta pundit then mounts 1.5 ton ECM jesus box.
Disparity?

Edited by HammerMaster, 03 March 2019 - 06:46 PM.

[FupDup]

HammerMaster, on 03 March 2019 - 06:46 PM, said:

Meta pundit state 1-1.5 ton is useless if it is NOT based only helping ammo, heatsinks ,armor.
Meta pundit then mounts 1.5 ton ECM jesus box.
Disparity?

1. ECM does not require ammo or generate heat like AMS and LAMS do.

2. ECM helps hide your red dorito from direct-fire opponents as well as missile opponents. Meanwhile [L]AMS is only good against missile opponents.

[Prototelis]

LOL "meta pundit"

So understanding the game is an insult now?

[Nightbird]

Jman5, on 03 March 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:

Those numbers are certainly what I feel is the upper spectrum of what you can expect from LRM 10s in the current balance. Like I said earlier my LRM 10A stats were 49.17%. The point was to disprove that a wildly high number were just missing through no fault of the player. If that were the case no amount of me being careful would matter because I can't control that.

That's why I said that with missiles current balance I can see it settling into the 40s and 50s. As for my weapon stats, I'll post it but they suffer the same problem my LRM 10 stats suffer from. They're old as dirt and mostly predate all the LRM velocity buffs and skill tree.



Here, I put all my missiles into a spreadsheet instead of posting 5 pages worth of screenshots. As you can see the reason I used the LRM 10A stats was because I had an enormous amount of games with them.

The numbers are almost all in that 40-50 range. You can see the LRM-20A was only 2% less than the LRM-10A. Again I would like to emphasize that these are primarily old numbers from when LRMs went 160 m/s vs today where you can get them up to about 220.

I think it's worth noting my direct fire IS SRM numbers aren't really all that much better and my MRMs are about in line with LRMs.

Sorry I don't have Clan LRM 20 stats without artemis. I think it's silly to spend all that tonnage on lrms and then skimp on artemis. I suppose I could play a few, but then you would say I was trying extra hard to make them hit.

Now that I've shared my stats can you show me the stats of someone who isn't a derp but is only getting 25-30% accuracy with their lrms? Because to me that doesn't make sense.

Nightbird, on 03 March 2019 - 03:44 PM, said:

I might actually need to call BS on your scores, PGI tracks "Fired" as the number of times the weapon is fired, not the number of missiles, and hit/accuracy is based on if even 1 missile out of the volley managed a hit.

Please post a screenshot, for example, in mine, a 55-56% PGI accuracy translates into 43-44% of the missiles actually hit (C-LRM15 and LRM 15 below).

Come on Jman... I'm curious what accuracy % you've actually got. Some of mine are pretty low...

Like 46% on LRM20 is actually 25% of missiles hitting

[HammerMaster]

Prototelis, on 03 March 2019 - 07:19 PM, said:

LOL "meta pundit"

So understanding the game is an insult now?

Are you offended?

[Prototelis]

No, I'm amused.

[Cazador88]

1 ams is just not enough for anything, well maybe it would be if people wouldnt be running lrm 10k builds. Rather spend that 1.5 on something more useful and use cover properly or run an ams boat mech. The logic that everyone should mount an ams is flawed too since in QP you more often than not get left behind unles in a relatively fast mech or people hang back on purpose to get the easy kills later so you only still have your own ams which is not enough, unless an ams boat kit fox or nova is helping you of course but that happens about 1 out 1000 times. In FP its different even with pug drops.

[HammerMaster]

Prototelis, on 03 March 2019 - 09:17 PM, said:

No, I'm amused.

I didn't say "puke".
Could of.

[C H E E K I E Z]

Im sad, about it kind of really...i love running around in my flamer 3xams 1xlams PIR, but honestly i've played it in QP maybe a grand total of 10 times, and only 1 game was i actually useful when they mass boated lrms. Maybe its bad luck, maybe its my mmr/rating/whateverthefucktheyusethesedays. But i hardly ever see mass lrm boating, if anything its 1 or 2 people with ATM 48.

[Greyhart]

Well this is fun.

What I take away is that no one would complain if AMS was massively buffed.

So how about 1 AMS being able to take out a volley of 60 LRMs.

Then no one can think it would be wasted tonnage, not everyone would need to carry them and you wouldn't be able to punch through them easily with weight of numbers.

[Jman5]

Nightbird, on 03 March 2019 - 03:44 PM, said:

I might actually need to call BS on your scores, PGI tracks "Fired" as the number of times the weapon is fired, not the number of missiles, and hit/accuracy is based on if even 1 missile out of the volley managed a hit.

Please post a screenshot, for example, in mine, a 55-56% PGI accuracy translates into 43-44% of the missiles actually hit (C-LRM15 and LRM 15 below).

Nightbird, on 03 March 2019 - 08:50 PM, said:

Come on Jman... I'm curious what accuracy % you've actually got. Some of mine are pretty low...

Like 46% on LRM20 is actually 25% of missiles hitting

First time someone has called me a liar here. I was trying to make it easier for everyone to read. You think I doctored my numbers without thinking about the obvious reason for the discrepancy?

I took a look at my missile stats spreadsheet from those 5 games that you dismissed to confirm it and here is what is happening. Sometime in the last year or so PGI altered how they record "Fired" and "Hit" on the stat page. In the past it was on a per missile basis. Now it counts firing a LRM 10 as +1 fired instead of +10.

Just look at my Hit and Damage stat on my LRM 10A which I told you were mostly old values. See how they line up pretty well (LRMs used to do more than 1 damage). I mean I would have had to play like 100,000 matches with them if PGI always counted LRMs by 1.



(15A and 20A are very slightly different because I played 1 with them after posting as you can see in the match #.)

So in a very real sense those LRM 10A numbers are more accurate than anything you'll get with today's hodge podge numbers. You will have to calculate it manually per game like I did several posts ago.

Quote

Please post a screenshot, for example, in mine, a 55-56% PGI accuracy translates into 43-44% of the missiles actually hit (C-LRM15 and LRM 15 below)

Quote

Like 46% on LRM20 is actually 25% of missiles hitting

You can't just arbitrarily decide what the LRM hit rates are based on your feelings.

I provided a way to do it so you're welcome to replicate. Here I'll write it down carefully:

1. Open up your weapon stat page and a spreadsheet.
2. Find a build that only uses 1 type of LRM.
3. In the spreadsheet paste your total damage for that LRM and your total ammo you brought.
4. Play a game and at the end record how much ammo you used. (I suggest you have some recording software running in case you die unexpectedly or forget).
5. Refresh your weapon stat page and paste the new numbers in.
6. Figure out ammo spent, and subtract your new total damage from your old.
7. Divide damage difference by ammo spent to arrive at your accurate Hit Rate.

TL;DR: Divide your total damage difference by your ammo used in a match.

You will now have an accurate hit rate for that match.

Edit: have you really never used artemis before? It helps with missile spread and accuracy BTW.

Edited by Jman5, 04 March 2019 - 05:58 AM.

[Nightbird]

Jman5, on 04 March 2019 - 05:14 AM, said:

You can't just arbitrarily decide what the LRM hit rates are based on your feelings.

I provided a way to do it so you're welcome to replicate. Here I'll write it down carefully:

1. Open up your weapon stat page and a spreadsheet.
2. Find a build that only uses 1 type of LRM.
3. In the spreadsheet paste your total damage for that LRM and your total ammo you brought.
4. Play a game and at the end record how much ammo you used. (I suggest you have some recording software running in case you die unexpectedly or forget).
5. Refresh your weapon stat page and paste the new numbers in.
6. Figure out ammo spent, and subtract your new total damage from your old.
7. Divide damage difference by ammo spent to arrive at your accurate Hit Rate.

TL;DR: Divide your total damage difference by your ammo used in a match.

You will now have an accurate hit rate for that match.

Edit: have you really never used artemis before? It helps with missile spread and accuracy BTW.

Well, it's not that simple, there is strike damage, and also in the past, free damage from arms (with ST loss) and ammo explosion damage.

I guess both our stats aren't usable, since the stats page is borked.

Artemis stats isn't useful because most people do not use it.

[R Valentine]

If we knew the map before we chose what build to play, I'd bet 50% or more mechs would bring AMS to Polar Highlands, since it's the only map without effective LRM cover. No one would bring it to Solaris or Crimson, and maybe 10-15% of people would bring it to Mining and Canyon. Map roulette is the source of a lot of the woes this game has, which is why it's not a thing in competitive play, but PGI still seems more than happy to let the other 95% of the community suffer through it.

[The pessimistic optimist]

A lot of the lack of AMS is people min maxing and finding extra tonnage for AMS get in the way of min maxing.

Edited by SirSmokes, 04 March 2019 - 07:40 AM.