46 replies to this topic

[Antares102]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 March 2019 - 06:18 AM, said:

Smaller maps? ... If anything we need BIGGER maps, and I mean BY FAR bigger maps. Smaller maps make actual scouting worthless, objectives such as resource caps and base defense worthless, and the only viable tactic on small maps is the 'big-blob-of-death'. That is NOT BattleTech, nor is it proper MechWarrior.

However with bigger maps we also need objectes spread out on the map more.
Look at the Forest Colony and Alpine Peaks which are huge (compared to other maps) the objectives especially in conquest are all in the center and nobody has an incentive to go somewhere else on the map.
If the cap points were all close to the edges on these maps light mechs would totally make sense because only those could reach the cap points in a meaningful time.

[LordNothing]

Xaat Xuun, on 17 March 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

NO no NO
there is only one spot the fight happens there
it's the same thing, who pokes first and does it best, and only room for a couple pokers if your not at the top first, if I get stuck going on that map, I'll just yolo

i guess not, an undisciplined casual has spoken.

and yolo is how you are supposed to play classic terra therma. its the only map where if you didnt commit to an immediate brawl you were probibly going to loose.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 March 2019 - 12:08 PM.

[GuardDogg]

No, what we need is those MW4 maps. No one nascared on there. And their was tactics.

[Vellron2005]

D VA, on 17 March 2019 - 06:02 AM, said:

Actually we got plenty of maps and the most of them are... oversized, overbulked where word "tactic" is a pure Lotto. Why don't get a better smaller maps where all classes would rose-up their "good" sides instead of that trash we got now... where assaults left behind get abused, where rocket-spam does the 80% of all work and where indestructible obstacles allow to exploit some classes preferences.
Instead of nerfing classes like assaults and heavies, instead of pulling ball meta on the square quirks, instead of fighting JJ's poptarting ghost and adding to any piece of equipment that does bring the cure of troll mech classes an ghost heat... just bring the normal maps.

Rising a TTK is not a good thing and never was.

I remember old Frozen city.

You power up your mech, walk 100 meters, and are getting shot already.

If I wanted instant robot on robot action, I would play World Robot Boxing.

Old maps are simply too small for 12 Vs 12. That is why they were replaced.

Bringing them back now is simply PGI catering to the vocal SRM lovers, and trying to look like they are doing something to appease those begging for new maps.

Well I for one am not appeased. Make NEW MAPS.

Take the old ones back out.. they have no place in a 12 vs 12 game.

[General Solo]

I look forward to the frenetic action that 12 mechs on small maps will bring.

24 mech River City Cave battle YAY!!!!!!!!



One of those 2 v 2 maps should also be included for extra intenseness. The green one with yellow forgot the name

It 'd be like quake wid mechs

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 18 March 2019 - 01:39 AM.

[ipaam]

Larger maps force better teamwork, or at least punish impatient teammates that can't wait to group up.

[Besh]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 March 2019 - 07:27 AM, said:

No, it is exactly map/objectives design fault. People play the way that brings wins, i.e. stick together, kill enemies, then spread and cap if needed etc., since there is plenty of time even for slow mechs to reach cap points. Needless to say skirmish / assault modes don't even pose such question since spreading is obviously pointless, and if fact leads to losing.

On Polar conquest mode if you don't have someone capping points you WILL lose. On Alpine conquest mode it doesn't matter, because 4 out of 5 cap points are within 3x3 square area, while the entire map is actually about 12x12 squares. Any other map is just too small and even slow mechs can easily reach anything within time after killing is done.

Idk, wasnt it it the Compscene/WcScene that kindly introduced the concept of "mapControl" to the masses ( and I honestly do not mean that sarcstically anyhow !) ? Is not the "deathball to center" or "deathball around the Map" often looked at as a Potatoe Strat that can be broken up by setting up firing Lines/Area control ? Did people, when arguing about the LRM/AMS changes, not constantly talk about how they are superduper suckz0rware 'cos they can deny access to entire Areas of Maps/control Maps ? Don't people have problems on a lot of Maps when heavy LRMs/Sniperbuilds are involved and control pathes/avenues of approach ?

I mean, you do describe exactly how a lot of people play MW:O . But do you really think that is the best way to play it, or do you really not see that almost every Map gives room and opportunity for different stuff than simply deathball, and if that stuff is executed, it is pretty hard to beat ?

Ok, you will probably say "yeah, but people dont do that/dont coordinate etc."....but if you do so, we are back "It is not the Map, it is the people" , no ?

Vellron2005, on 18 March 2019 - 12:45 AM, said:

I remember old Frozen city.

You power up your mech, walk 100 meters, and are getting shot already.

If I wanted instant robot on robot action, I would play World Robot Boxing.

Old maps are simply too small for 12 Vs 12. That is why they were replaced.

Bringing them back now is simply PGI catering to the vocal SRM lovers, and trying to look like they are doing something to appease those begging for new maps.

Well I for one am not appeased. Make NEW MAPS.

Take the old ones back out.. they have no place in a 12 vs 12 game.

Old Forest Colony -> PPC Range Nerf . Why ? Cos people got headshotted right at Spawn XD

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 02:03 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 01:55 AM, said:

I mean, you do describe exactly how a lot of people play MW:O . But do you really think that is the best way to play it?

No. But fixing maps and objectives are waaaay easier than fixing people.

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 01:58 AM, said:

Old Forest Colony PPC Range Nerf . Why ? Cos afk'ers got headshotted right at Spawn XD

FTFY.

[ipaam]

Will the old forest map have high water so the short lights will be underwater?

[Besh]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 02:01 AM, said:

Old Forest Colony PPC Range Nerf . Why ? Cos afk'ers got headshotted right at Spawn XD

To be fair, iirc some people simply wanted to stay there to LRM, or snipe with something different than a PPC XD .

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 02:01 AM, said:

No. But fixing maps and objectives are waaaay easier than fixing people.

To me, the quesiton was, are Maps bad, or do people play them wrong ?

With that statement above, you ARE saying it is the people not playing the Maps ( or what ? ) but its more pratical to blame the Mapdesign so you can have Maps changed because you do not think people can learn how to play the Game differently/better ? So people are broken resulting in "cant play the Maps", but since we can not fix people, we call the Map broken and go ahead and fix THAT ? Paint me confused.

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 02:10 AM.

[Acersecomic]

Vellron2005, on 18 March 2019 - 12:45 AM, said:

If I wanted instant robot on robot action, I would play World Robot Boxing.

Considering how long we wait to get a match and then how long for the match to start and then two minutes walking to start the fight, I for one am excited that we'll get instant action!
Keep your gigantic useless maps for yourself.

[PhoenixFire55]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 02:08 AM, said:

To be fair, iirc some people simply wanted to stay there to LRM, or snipe with something different than a PPC XD .

So? Does that justify the PPC range nerf somehow?

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 02:08 AM, said:

To me, the quesiton was, are Maps bad, or do people play them wrong ?

With that statement above, you ARE saying it is the people not playing the Maps ( or what ? ) but its more pratical to blame the Mapdesign so you can have Maps changed because you do not think people can learn how to play the Game differently/better ? So people are broken resulting in "cant play the Maps", but since we can not fix people, we call the Map broken and go ahead and fix THAT ? Paint me confused.

What is "wrong" and in which case? ... People play the way that brings victories, i.e. they play it "right". At least ones with half a clue. It doesn't mean that aren't alternative "right" ways to play, but the majority would always pick the simpliest one to execute, especially so when they have no control over everpresent herpaderps on their team. Comp teams don't have the herpaderp problem (not extensively anyway), and they can't always default to one tactic because then they become predictable and easy to counter. Hence much greater diversity in comp.

You can't expect an average joederp (who is 98% of any online game population) to exectue more advanced tactics when he can always default to easiest one and still profit. Thus its the map design problem, because maps allow for the default tactic to always be effective. Lack of meaningful objectives allow for it in the same way.

But ... Maps are still bad, because they have little to nothing to do with what we expect MW/BT maps to be like. Small map means you can get anywhere you want reasonably fast even in assault, in turn it means you don't have to make any significant tactical decision early on, don't have to commit and be forced to go through with your plan. Hence there is no need for scouting, no need for splitting forces and so on ...

And for the record. I don't mind small maps. They are perfectly fine when there are just as many huge maps. The problem is that they are the only option.

[Besh]

Acersecomic, on 18 March 2019 - 02:16 AM, said:

Considering how long we wait to get a match and then how long for the match to start and then two minutes walking to start the fight, I for one am excited that we'll get instant action!
Keep your gigantic useless maps for yourself.

That really seems to be some kind of classic discussion within the MW:O community .

For some people, its just as much about actual Strategy, movement, positioning BEFORE the pewpew happens ( and if you look at what happens in Game, it is pretty easy to see that those do play a big Role in any given Match ), others simply want to get to the pewpew as much as fast as possible ( damn the Games where Alpha is wiped before Charlie even got to see an Opfor 'Mech XD ).

A lot of what the Game offers in terms of equipment and Mapdesign invites to very different gameplay (strategywise) to what we mostly see beeing played out . But since a lot of people really want instant action, its a good move by PGI to bring back the classic, smaller Maps . I just really hope they make them 8v8 . 12v12 on old Forest, or Frozen, will be a total shitshow XD .

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 02:38 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Acersecomic, on 18 March 2019 - 02:16 AM, said:

Considering how long we wait to get a match and then how long for the match to start and then two minutes walking to start the fight, I for one am excited that we'll get instant action!
Keep your gigantic useless maps for yourself.

If you want instant action, play Solaris.. that's what it's for..

Gigantic maps in MWO are not nearly gigantic enough..

[GoodTry]

I don't know what people expect to happen on large maps. Are you hoping people will spread out and fight 1v1/2v2? That doesn't make any sense. Are you hoping for "scouting"? We already have that on Polar Highlands, and the real-world effect is that somebody says "3 mechs I9", the death ball steers that way, and whichever team has the numbers tends to win. It's the same result as every other map, except that the first 5 minutes are spent walking (usually over the same path you've walked 100 times before).

Having the numbers is always going to be a big advantage in any fight. So no matter how big the map is, some kind of death ball is always going to happen. It just pays to stay together. Increasing the size of the maps just means more walking before the fighting starts.

Beyond that, the scoring in MWO isn't set up for people to do anything but fight. You don't get many points for capping or scouting. On a pure cap win, everybody loses in that no one gets many points.

In the end, if you want a good score, you generally need to stay together, do damage, survive a long time, and win. Having a huge map doesn't change any of those objectives.

Edited by GoodTry, 18 March 2019 - 06:15 AM.

[Acersecomic]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 02:37 AM, said:

That really seems to be some kind of classic discussion within the MW:O community .

For some people, its just as much about actual Strategy, movement, positioning BEFORE the pewpew happens ( and if you look at what happens in Game, it is pretty easy to see that those do play a big Role in any given Match ), others simply want to get to the pewpew as much as fast as possible ( damn the Games where Alpha is wiped before Charlie even got to see an Opfor 'Mech XD ).

A lot of what the Game offers in terms of equipment and Mapdesign invites to very different gameplay (strategywise) to what we mostly see beeing played out . But since a lot of people really want instant action, its a good move by PGI to bring back the classic, smaller Maps . I just really hope they make them 8v8 . 12v12 on old Forest, or Frozen, will be a total shitshow XD .

Sadly what people want and what ends up happening does not often meet expectations in MWO. With mostly poor map design and builds favoring insane alphas it just ends up being better murderball wins and the fight happens at the same place where fights always happen or any given map.
Rubelite Oasis is one of the very very few maps where you can actually apply tactics and choice properly due to accessable cover, verticality and multiple avenues of approach.
Not nascaring and taking top/middle is hardly a tactic, that's called common sense and basics. Sadly calling that advanced tactics has become a standard.

Vellron2005, on 18 March 2019 - 04:56 AM, said:

If you want instant action, play Solaris.. that's what it's for..

Gigantic maps in MWO are not nearly gigantic enough..

Oh, did they implement randoms 8v8 or 12v12 in Solaris?
Don't spount nonsense just for the sake of a weak and harmful argument.

Edited by Acersecomic, 18 March 2019 - 06:32 AM.

[A Really Old Clan Dude]

C H E E K I E Z, on 17 March 2019 - 07:09 AM, said:

have you ever tried walking the outside of the entire polar highlands, or the entire forest colony......those maps are actually incredibly large. the problem is both teams walk at eachother, and generally meet eachother in the middle. making 90% of the map useless.

its not the maps fault, its the people who play them

if only those had more than 1 starting position. 3/4 of forest colony is never used. 1/2 of polar is not used.
Even alpine as 3 or 4 very distinct tactics that can be played on skirmish depending where you start. The problem is most players just run to the middle and then start looking for what the other team is doing.

[ChapeL]

With the return of the original Forest Colony some of you will get to experience for the first time the "fun" of getting hit by enemy fire while still on the edge of your drop zone.( liked, you walked 2 seconds at 50kph ) You know those glowing Atlas eyes ? They were removed in part because you could SEE them through fog from one spawn point to the next on that map.

Those old maps were shoeboxes and were done away with for a reason. I guess it's ok to bring them back for the sake of variety alone but not because they were "quality design". If anything this only further serves to illustrate the lack of ressources PGI directs into making new maps.

I am not looking forward to map votes between Forest colony, Forest colony original, Forest colony winter and HPG Manifold.

Edited by ChapeL, 18 March 2019 - 12:59 PM.

[Prototelis]

Vellron2005, on 18 March 2019 - 12:45 AM, said:

You power up your mech, walk 100 meters, and are getting shot already.

And you'll still find a way to be 600 meters from the fight.

[Anjian]

When are the 'old' maps going to drop? Been waiting for it and checking the forums everyday for the news.