35 replies to this topic

[ChapeL]

Elementals as a consumable Point blank AoE around the carrier mech. For use when swarmed by enemy lights ( or whatever mech gets too close for you to shoot at )

IS get consumable A-Pods to mittigate the issue.

No, I'm not being serious...

[Variant1]

Xaat Xuun, on 19 March 2019 - 11:48 AM, said:

using them as an consumable makes sense, if you get five to send, then might be as good as an Air strike or Artillery strike (maybe itsy bitsy better)
their speed means you'll need to select a drop, just as you would air strikes, they're spawn time is on a timer, can't having them buggers running around forever

Heck no they need to last forever until they are destroyed, they are small and do little damage so they would be handy destraction i say.

[A Really Old Clan Dude]

Just buy a flea, put stealth armour on it, drop the engine to 60 kph and only have 1 small laser and a SRM 2 with 1/2 ton ammo.

life expectancy 30 seconds.

[Curccu]

A Really Old Clan Dude, on 21 March 2019 - 05:03 PM, said:

Just buy a flea, put stealth armour on it, drop the engine to 60 kph and only have 1 small laser and a SRM 2 with 1/2 ton ammo.

life expectancy 30 seconds.

more like take smallest engine there is and at the beginning of each game ask friendlies to shoot off your other leg, also no armor ofc.
close to this one LCT-1M I think it's still too fast, maybe LFE which is halved and legged at the beginning of the round? Yep that's good LCT-1M

and yeah you live a lot longer than 30s because there is no way you get within shooting range of your enemy that fast.

[50 50]

R79TCom1 Night Lanner, on 19 March 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

Allowing players to pilot Elementals wouldn't work in MWO. Without the ability to hide in buildings, ride on 'Mechs, or have additional Elementals under each player's command, they are pretty useless on the battlefield. An Elemental goes 10± kph and jumps 90 meters. It has a small laser (IS style) and an SRM2 with two shots. You could also allow for machine guns or flamers,.but whatever it carries, anything it faces is going to be out of your range in a heartbeat. Once at that range two or three ER Medium Lasers will take it out. So like most people are saying it would only work if it were AI controlled.

I love Elementals and would love to see the in the game, but as I see it there are two ways to get Elementals into MWO:

1) AI controlled consumables - basically they're turrets you drop that have the limited mobility and weapons of Elementals. While carrying them you're limited to only firing you arm weapons and once dropped they'll chase after any Target that comes into LOS. I wrote a whole thing up about how it would work and involve swarm attacks it anyone is interested.

2) Bolt-ons - this is just so your 'Mech looks cool with Elementals on it. You buy each location separate (Front Right Torso, Front Left Torso, Rear Right, Rear Left, Rear Center) and they can be in any one of the faction camos. I think this would be the quickest and coolest way to get Elementals into the game.

Bonus third, dream way: Do both. Release Elemental consumables and Bolt-ons. Have the Bolt-ons drop off when consumable is used.

Nah.
The best option IMHO is to have them as a pilotable option if we were to get any game development done to implement them.
1.) As AI, well, we have seen the Atlas in Escort. Let's not go there.
2.) As consumables, I can only see problems with this. People don't like the artillery strikes. Adding in a consumable that costs no heat or tonnage to blast a single target for some free damage? Or, they would be so weak it wouldn't make any sense.
3.) Bolt ons. Ok. Don't mind that but I am not going to buy them and that is one reason why...

....Pilotable elementals is an interesting concept.

First, and I think I am going to have to create my own thread on this to argue my heart out for them, but the writers at FASA must have gotten fixated on the current day mechanical diving suits ... with guns as the concept for the battle armour. When you go through the lore and the rules there is just so much wrong and so many contradictions with the way the rules were done for them that it is horrifically wrong.

I mean... 10.8kph???? That's 3m per second. Your average human jogs at 3.7 meters per second.
But Elementals are genetically engineered giant super soldiers wearing powered battlearmour with mech myomer musculature and jump jets to enhance their inhuman physical abilities.

It may not seem like they fit into MWO, but they do and I would throw down money to buy them where as there is not a single mech that could be introduced at this stage that I would say I just have to get.

Edited by 50 50, 24 March 2019 - 11:44 PM.

[Blacksheep One]

Sagara Sousuke 011011001, on 19 March 2019 - 02:10 PM, said:

FYI, you could play as an elemental in MW3 pirates moon. I think you were much faster than 10 kph though.

Netmech/DOS let you, as well.

Killed a 100 tonner (Dire wolf/Masakari) on Spire of Destiny by falling on him from 1k up. And others by just running between their legs and letting them shoot their feet off. It was fun... as long as you realized you were one shot from getting killed even at full health.

ChapeL, on 21 March 2019 - 09:17 AM, said:

Elementals as a consumable Point blank AoE around the carrier mech. For use when swarmed by enemy lights ( or whatever mech gets too close for you to shoot at )

IS get consumable A-Pods to mittigate the issue.

No, I'm not being serious...

You should be.

[lobsterhierarchy]

Something I’ve always found funny is how this universe keeps so hard on tonnage limits. Like, put 5 more tons of stuff on your already 75 ton timby, and a black hole opens and everything dies. But slap 5 one ton elementals holding onto monkey bars placed on your mech and you’re a okay!

I guess that would make sense on engine and structure strain...but the point still stands lol

[Novakaine]

Aw hell no not before I see these.

Edited by Novakaine, 22 March 2019 - 08:44 AM.

[Grus]

The sheer amount if ire and salt I reap in Mech Warrior Living Legends in battle armor is monumental... you dont want guys like me to have battle armor...

[R79TCom1 Night Lanner]

50 50,
Elementals on foot move the same speed as human infantry in Lore. So my guess is that is if, as you said, humans can jog at 3.7 m/s that means they can cover, at a jog, 37 meters in the 10 seconds in a BattleTech round, or slightly over the 30m distance a hex is. Rather than doubling the speed of a human/Elemental so it could go 2 hexes they just rounded down -- which could be handwaved away as it being because uneven terrain, gear, or whatever.

It is only because of the supersoldier and myomer that the 1 ton Elemental can move 10.8± kph. With the jump jets they can go 90m in 10 seconds or 32.4 kph, but still, a single Elemental that can be detected just like a 'Mech (because unless they are actively hiding in cover, they can) will be a tiny target that could easily be taken out with one Streak SRM 6 rack.

To make player piloted Elementals work, there would need to be a way that you get four AI controlled buddies that shoot where you shoot move where you move, and as you die you switch to the next, least damaged suit. That might be fun, actually...

[Variant1]

ChapeL, on 21 March 2019 - 09:17 AM, said:

Elementals as a consumable Point blank AoE around the carrier mech. For use when swarmed by enemy lights ( or whatever mech gets too close for you to shoot at )

IS get consumable A-Pods to mittigate the issue.

No, I'm not being serious...

A pods would be cool, is get 2 consumable mech equipment and would make IS and clans more different

[Koniving]

BrunoSSace, on 18 March 2019 - 06:25 PM, said:

Imagine how small, like half the size of a locus.

Given how big MWO has made mechs, Elementals if kept to actual size would look like ants.
Timber Wolf says it can carry 6 of them...but will look like 12 or more could easily hitch a ride.
Unless PGI makes them proto-mech sized.

Elemental is on the left.




Far as getting rid of them, a small laser could easily kill 2 or 3 in a single shot with a good hit...

Edited by Koniving, 22 March 2019 - 08:38 PM.

[Burning2nd]

i said this fk'n years ago ...

[50 50]

R79TCom1 Night Lanner, on 22 March 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

50 50,
Elementals on foot move the same speed as human infantry in Lore. So my guess is that is if, as you said, humans can jog at 3.7 m/s that means they can cover, at a jog, 37 meters in the 10 seconds in a BattleTech round, or slightly over the 30m distance a hex is. Rather than doubling the speed of a human/Elemental so it could go 2 hexes they just rounded down -- which could be handwaved away as it being because uneven terrain, gear, or whatever.

Wouldn't surprise me if they did a lot of guestimating or perhaps it was driven more by balance.

However in the tactical game (I say, digging out my old TRO3050) they have a movement of 3 hexes.
Their movement is also not affected by woods or elevation changes less than 4.
It could be assumed that part of this freedom of movement would be due to their size, but also due to the battle armour having the jump jets and they 'bounded' along..... hence the Toad nickname.

I think the design brief given to the writers literally was: "It's like a mechanical diving suit with guns"
And they never really got past this image as the basis: https://en.wikipedia...Diving_Suit.jpg

I just googled things like average human height and running speed and looked up all the stuff on Sarna but it made me seriously question the design, rules and lore of the Battlearmour.

So we are going to design this thing that is 3 meters tall. It's a powered suit of armour that uses the same myomers used in the mechs to make them move, and let's have these 2.5 meter tall genetically engineered super soldiers wear them.
It's like putting Captain America inside an Ironman suit but somehow just ended up being a big humanoid in a 1980's diving suit.
Didn't seem to add up.
If Usain Bolt can sprint at approximately 45kph and he's just under 2 meters tall you would think an Elemental might laugh at that.... and then they put on the armour.
They should probably run at around 55kph.

R79TCom1 Night Lanner, on 22 March 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

It is only because of the supersoldier and myomer that the 1 ton Elemental can move 10.8± kph. With the jump jets they can go 90m in 10 seconds or 32.4 kph, but still, a single Elemental that can be detected just like a 'Mech (because unless they are actively hiding in cover, they can) will be a tiny target that could easily be taken out with one Streak SRM 6 rack.

And this is where when I started poking around for information I found more anomalies.
The mass on Sarna is listed at 1000kg
Yet, they could carry a small laser at 500kg and an SRM2 at 500kp and have 250kg of armour.
Then there are the two antipersonnel weapons, the jump jets, the various other life support and electronic systems and the battleclaw AND the weight of the elemental themselves which is probably substantial.
How does 250kg of armour equate to 10 points worth as well? In the board game, 1 ton of armour was 16 points.
I always figured it was half a ton of ferro-fibrous rounded up for each Battlearmour suit to have 10 points worth.
They should probably be closer to 4 tons.
According to Sarna they are meant to be hard to detect so we could debate the ability to get lock ons or even have them show up on radar.

R79TCom1 Night Lanner, on 22 March 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

To make player piloted Elementals work, there would need to be a way that you get four AI controlled buddies that shoot where you shoot move where you move, and as you die you switch to the next, least damaged suit. That might be fun, actually...

Now that might work though getting the AI to function may be the wrong approach. It may be possible to treat all 5 as parts of a single entity and have it function like a mech. So each elemental is it's own hit location kind of thing.
It would be unique.

Personally, I am interested in a different implementation and really for MWO, it's about finding some roots in the lore but making it fit in the game.
So, consider two things here.
1. They are squishy, though with the armour conversion in MWO they will have about 20 points worth (Plus the Elemental acts as the internal structure) which isn't shabby.
2. They used to ride the mechs into battle.

We can offset the squishiness by using respawns if we drop one Elemental at a time.
In lore they used a point of 5 Elementals, so 5 drops in total. Given the equipment weight and so on as discussed above that makes them about 20 tons worth fitting nicely into the light tonnage bracket.

This also lets us simulate the ability to ride into battle on the mechs as when we die in the game, we get a spectator screen we can flick between mechs on. This would be the perfect spot to give a player who has taken the Elemental a little respawn button to drop into battle with their next Elemental.
Let's us get through a point of 5 without having to worry about stuff like the AI or multi-hit location thing and also ties nicely to the lore with the mech riding bit. If we really wanted to be fancy, then we could see the Elemental on the rear CT of the mech, but you know what, just having them pop into play from the selected mech would be good enough.

A lot of the other stuff can be simulated with quirks.
Not affected by elevations is the hill climbing skill.
They don't have heat sinks and aren't affected by heat anyway so can give 100% heat reduction. Not that a single small laser is going to generate much, why worry about it.
Can't be detected easily, radar derp. Stealth armour effect?
No falling damage?
There are a variety of options to improve their longevity and usefulness on the field used in a solo drop function as above.

Because they do not have the speed of your average light mech, they would get used in a very different way and their small size is their greatest asset.
There are enough small weapons, more so now with the light equipment and micro weapons that there are some reasonable customization options or at least options for different variants if they can't be customized.
They don't need individual hit locations for arms or legs etc. Just one spot because when you go through that you are injuring the elemental inside which just means death.

In the end though, if PGI is to go to the trouble of coding, modelling and all the work that would be required you want to be able to sell it and that means making it a pilotable option.
I for one would buy one and I know others who would as well.

They don't have to be top tier or competitive to be added to the game. The majority of what we have aren't.
But they would give us a unique option that is well within the lore and timeline etc that would alter the game experience for the pilot and their opponents.

Dibs first in for an urbanmech vs elemental battle btw.

[R79TCom1 Night Lanner]

So to clear up some things:
1. Elementals are 1000kg. The way they're able to fit all that equipment is by using special Clan technology. For example, the Small Lasers are on par with Inner Sphere Small Lasers, not Clan ER Small Lasers. If you go to the Sarna site for Small Lasers (Battle Armor) you'll see it only weighs 200kg. In addition, almost all of the components on an Elemental, while 'Mech grade are not the exact same. For example, the SRM2 is only 70kg with an additional 60kg for the reload. Most of it is specially made for Elemental use.

2. The person inside "pilots" the battle armor with their whole body. They wear a sensor suit coupled with further movement sensors in the battle armor tell the myomer how to move the armor. And while genetically selected for height and bulk, the people are not superhumans like Captain America. They are still limited to human speeds. So yes, a the highly athletic, trained their whole life Elemental person could Sprint as fast as Usain Bolt, they wouldn't be able to sustain that for much longer than he could. You try and get an Elemental running 50kph for the length of a battle and they're likely to kill themselves without an armor breach.

3. Yes, on table top BattleTech the Elemental moves 3 hexes (9m/s) across the battlefield by hopping all the time. That is their primary way of moving, besides riding on OmniMechs, and is why the Inner Sphere calls them "Toads." The rules also specify that when moving on foot (as some battle armor can only do) they move 1 hex like the rest of infantry. The reason why they ignore terrain is because either they're jumping over it, or running around it within the 30m hex. Also, probably because FASA didn't want players to have to remember which infantry used half movements in the previous and can now crest a hill or move into a forest.

4) Since they use similar armor as 'Mechs, similar targeting, and sensor equipment, they are most definitely detectable the same way a 'Mech is detectable. In table top rules, they were treated the same way as 'Mechs in this department, too. Now, there are types of battle armor that have ECM and Stealth capabilities, but not the Clan Elemental.

5) Elementals deploy as a Point of 5 battle armor and is the way they are most effective. One at a time is useless as they are slow, weakly armored even with the MWO armor boost, and 1 Small Laser and 4 SRMs won't do much. But 5 Small Lasers and 20 SRMs is a threat to pay attention to. That's why I proposed having multiple troops with the player that move where they moves and fires where they fire.

6) Swarm attacks are the Elementals most effective weapon. Jumping on a 'Mech, using their claw to rip armor off then ramming their Small Laser into the opening, shooting internal components cand do a lot of critical damage especially if you have 5 of these guys doing it. How we bring that in the game and allow MechWarriors to swat them away in a game with no physical attacks is a difficult question to answer.

Now, I'm an old BattleTech guy. I like the universe because it's not like other mecha universes that are sleek and ultra futuristic robots jumping and doing flips with laser swords and super-powered armored infantry moving at vehicle speed and flittering about the battlefield. I like that BattleMechs are walking tanks and infantry are just normal-ish troops in armored deep sea diving suits. So having fast moving battle armor bouncing around the battlefield doesn't appeal to me and frankly doesn't feel like BattleTech. However, I did have a discussion with some friends that suggested battle armor be a different game mode rather than part of the 'Mech game mode. In that case I was intrigued by the idea because he described it as being at a smaller scale and you call in 'Mech strikes similar to air strikes where you truly see how powerful a 'Mech is as it charges in and out of view laying waste to the location you designated. It sounded cool but way beyond what we have seen in MWO.

[50 50]

Got to say that a game based on being an Elemental and taking down mechs would be rather cool. Bit surprised it hasn't been done really.
I'm with you about Battletech having it's own style and not being some manga hash up. However. neither is it a steampunk game and the Elemental Battlearmour must have more agility to do things like the swarm atttack or the rules/descriptions just contradict themselves.
Please let me be clear that I am not suggesting that the Elemental Battle armour be any sort of super speedy, super agile infantry. Just something plausible.

The problem with the rules as they are is that there was what was introduced for Battletech and then what was done in the Mechwarrior RPG and they are quite different.
There are points I agree and disagree on from both and really, in my opinion, the rules from the Mechwarrior RPG were not a good fit for the game.
The only bit I would take from the RPG is that the Elementals were genetically engineered and based off the super soldier program. The rest just doesn't gel that well and I think that is why the horrid little proto mechs came about, which really, if we want a game about the power rangers, let's add them...... not! I don't really even like the way they have been done in MW:LL or previous MW titles.

Seeing as we don't actually deal with the pilots in MWO and it's meant to be based on Battletech and not the Mechwarrior RPG, in terms of translating the Battlearmour into MWO.

From Battletech, the Battlearmour used by the clans use standard equipment yes.
However, that standard equipment was the original equipment as detailed from pre-invasion source material with a couple of modifications.
The equipment took up 1 less critical space with a minimum of 1.
The flamers, machine guns and missile launchers were half the tonnage.
This means that the standard loadout for the Battlearmour of a small laser was the original small laser which still weighed 0.5 tons. The SRM2 is just the clan SRM 2.
Speed wise the could move 3 hexes in a turn which puts them at around 34kph.
10 points of armour.
Jump jets didn't really figure into the movement but fits in with the ability to navigate the elevated terrain unhindered.

So, if we were to theorize how they could be adapted to MWO I would suggest that we try and use the existing equipment so we can avoid the need to add in a new range of equipment.
If we treat them as being approximately 4 tons it fits in enough with the existing structure in MWO.
0.5 tons for a small laser.
0.5 tons for the SRM2
Roughly 0.5 tons for the armour.
Jump jets.... one in each leg, no actual rules lets assume they are 0.25 tons each for 0.5 tons total.
No real rules for the claw either but it can rip off armour and unless the Battlearmour is lopsided, let's say 0.5 tons there so they can stand up straight.
No actual rules on the Elementals themselves and there is maybe one line of information in the TRO3050, but let's assume that because they serve as the internal structure for the battle armour that they have a significant enough mass... maybe 250kg or something.
The various bits of electrical goodies, life support, power supply and so on and it's starting to add up.
Some of that is purely speculative and really doesn't come into it for MWO.
All we really need to know is how much tonnage is available for the equipment because then we can consider different loadouts and variations.
A movement speed of around the 34kph (based on the 3 hex per turn movement) is not unreasonable for something that is 3 meters tall.
Single hit box (as per the TRO) is not complex.
Development wise there are probably a few areas that do not need to be worked on, others that do.
ie. Don't need a cockpit, just a hud. Movement would need to be more humanoid and not vehicular.

The reason I was suggesting the one at a time approach was more due to the 'all the eggs in one basket' issue where a single strike could eliminate the entire point, but also that having a point of Elementals look correct visually would probably need the inverse kinetics otherwise you would see them hovering.
Think it would also be easier to do one at a time and use the respawn.
Admittedly the strength of the whole is greater than it's parts so there is that to consider.

If it came down to it though, I would support the development of Elementals in MWO if they could be piloted. There is no money in adding them as a non-pilotable option. Who pays $$ for consumables?!

Edited by 50 50, 31 March 2019 - 12:35 AM.