44 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 27 March 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

Ah, np.
What I wanted to say without different loading mechanism (I would count gast, revolver or gatling all as multi barrel for simplicity) you can not exceed the rate of fire of the whirlwind by using 120mm as caliber.
Theoretical rate of fire for the 120mm (13kg per cartridge (semi-combustible, with metal base, high energy propellant- electric fuzed, small caliber bullet with sabot) is 6 rounds per second. (Sure it's the abstract G3 rules but some examples using this systems showed almost the same weight, muzzle energy or RoF of real weapons)

So when you design a AC20 with 120mm you can not fire the same rounds from a single barrel and have manageable volume if fire. Ok the absolute minimum for the AC20 would be 20kg per second...
Stops ... blinks...oh hell I have a freaking error in my calculation and did not even recognize it.... with 13kg per shell the 3 round burst for the Whirlwind works but why didn't i realize that 90rounds are complete utopic.

Sorry Kon' - 12 round clip when using the same round 20 when using less propellant. With maximum rate if fire and single barrel still a 2-4 second burst. But you have a high chance for a jam. So you need a multi-chamber loading mechanism to have a difference between AC20 and Ultra 5s or even Rotarys. (Not that the rotary is a well defined weapon to start with - it's a lightweight ac20 with more range, damage and less heat)

Gotcha. I riginally had one (revolving chamber gas powered or electric [venting gas to reduce recoil] but as I was finishing it up I hit a thought about the final burst in the chambersnwith the cassette empty. Could lead to a fun bluff but in terms of game mechanics having the arm lock during a reload with a burst waiting in the chamber would create a coding issue beyond my abilities in regards to AI behavior when using it..so at the last second I opted out of it. I do agree though. Will make the change on my next pass through it.

Far as reducing the size of the shells I know this is an option and would make it even more simulation heavy. But already we will be going from just AC/20 ammo to at least 13 different standard sizes plus upcoming variants of each for armor piercing incendiary etc... and so each unique ammo size I make say 120mmx37cm or 120mmx79mm I would again need to have a plethora of ammo types for that size too. So am opting for a generic ammo of each caliber.

If a multi chamber (am thinking 3) and 3 barrels( revolving i assume or 3 separate firing mechanisms?) might do it, then will roll with that.

(The RAC is funny. It has greater accurate range...with significantly less accuracy if you consider the damage spread. Though I suspect that is due to it being more overtime. For example I have 3 separate examples of Rac/5 and all 3 are 50mm. Personally will be making both low and medium-high calibers.

The ranges of other guns will get similar treatment as the GM when I have time and tweaks based on closer to finalized values for each part. Early numbers are just slap guessing a sort of imaginary recoil. (Movement and recoil will be my less-than-pinpoint measure rather than a cone of fire or perfect aim). These are out here to get some feedback thoughts etc. just like you are providing. Thank you.

Minor tweaks were done earlier to a couple of the guns already. GM was changed from reliable to poor (Marauder 3) due to fluff. Will see how far I let that spread but the gun was apparently very temperamental in that it would sometimes refuse to fire. "You had one job!" Fluff added including the original sarna page on a waybackmachine to show the original stats. Eventually I will figure out how to format subvariants as GM Whirlwind on a Marauder looks nothing like the one on a Wolverine. So these will have different mount locations sizes and stats.

Got an issue with Chemist maybe you can help me out. A mechanic from a very similar setup in mechwarrior 3050 with Gauss Rifle comes to mind. You charge it to get range. Here you would "fill it" to get range. Had two concepts. Automatic based on range to acquired target, and manual. The issue with automatic is I would need to put a leading reticle for indirect (mortar) style aiming for where to aim to try and net a hit with the auto fill. If manual.... there will be a lot of guess work for an amateur trying to use it. Alternatively the "fill" mechanic could be a complete lie but that would mark it feel pretty shifty like a grenade launcher hen lobbing over walls. What's your thought on it?

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 27 March 2019 - 03:31 PM, said:

Got an issue with Chemist maybe you can help me out. A mechanic from a very similar setup in mechwarrior 3050 with Gauss Rifle comes to mind. You charge it to get range. Here you would "fill it" to get range. Had two concepts. Automatic based on range to acquired target, and manual. The issue with automatic is I would need to put a leading reticle for indirect (mortar) style aiming for where to aim to try and net a hit with the auto fill. If manual.... there will be a lot of guess work for an amateur trying to use it. Alternatively the "fill" mechanic could be a complete lie but that would mark it feel pretty shifty like a grenade launcher hen lobbing over walls. What's your thought on it?

If you don't have the ability to drive a Demo I would drop the ChemSet completely. Although a binary proppelant AC has some merits. When you fire only kinetic energy penetrators you are safe of an ammunition explosion, would be necessary to hole both tanks get the right mixture and then need the ignition energy.

As for the gameplay - keep it simple, while we don't know which informations are available and which are not. Ideal you would get the range to the target and alter the "speed" of the bullet that the travel time is always the same, say example 220ms.
So when the locked target is at 735m - speed is 3340m/s - target at 235m 1068m. Lets say you shoot at a Raven 27m/s it will always travel 5m in the time between firing and impact.
Without dynamic zoom, this would be hard enough to play with this gun, for the price of haveing the best damage/ton ratio of all Autocannons.

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 28 March 2019 - 02:24 AM, said:

If you don't have the ability to drive a Demo I would drop the ChemSet completely. Although a binary proppelant AC has some merits. When you fire only kinetic energy penetrators you are safe of an ammunition explosion, would be necessary to hole both tanks get the right mixture and then need the ignition energy.

As for the gameplay - keep it simple, while we don't know which informations are available and which are not. Ideal you would get the range to the target and alter the "speed" of the bullet that the travel time is always the same, say example 220ms.
So when the locked target is at 735m - speed is 3340m/s - target at 235m 1068m. Lets say you shoot at a Raven 27m/s it will always travel 5m in the time between firing and impact.
Without dynamic zoom, this would be hard enough to play with this gun, for the price of haveing the best damage/ton ratio of all Autocannons.

Its a mechwarrior game made by PGI.
(Of course we don't natively have the ability to drive a Demolisher)
But you might be surprised at how many vehicles carry it.
There's the Monitor naval vessal (which is one of the reasons the indirect fie aspect is good to have) 3 tanks (though two are versions of each other).

On a different note, while trying to find the exact list again I wound up on two autocannon things, one an article about how we're firing pancakes and another asking for what autocannons are.

Spoiler

I know this thread is ancient and I'm about to dig up the dead... but this came up as a top result in a search and I thought I'd put some info in.

Though Battletechnology is no longer considered canonical, it was for over 20 years and it was written in large part by two Battletech authors and edited by the original game designers. Despite Battletechnology no longer being canonical (probably for Harmony Gold reasons and because it is pretty out of date; the original reason for PPC min range was it was heavy; at the time it was only mounted on arms) Here it was described as a giant machine gun. In the same caliber of ammunition, an AC/20 shoots 4 times as fast as an AC/5 OR at least 4 times as much in sustained fire before needing to stop. Either way, whether its recoil or the additional time necessary is what cuts the range.

It is pointed out there and that a "Round" is more like a cassette of ammunition. Think of it like a magazine.
Real life autocannons go up to 60mm usually and is generally used as anti-infantry, anti-air, etc. In Battletech, Mech Rifles are your basic tank cannons. Except those super penetrators firing sabots are very weak and easily dodged (mechs can manuever to avoid things and actively try to avoid damage when possible, except when the task is impossible [like being hit by a hailstorm of shells like that from an autocannon] or the pilot intends to take the damage [such as to protect someone or something else].

Armor in Battletech interestingly defends against very small penetrations very well, such as sabot penetrators, and yet are terrible against wide area impacts such being punched or kicked, with a kick able to do as much damage as an AC/20. As such the high explosive component of autocannons makes a fair bit of sense.

There's also this which I posted on someone's article about how we're firing pancakes.

Spoiler

Interesting, but you're comparing apples to oranges.
When you compare two vastly different sized ammunitions and then compare the generic number, you're going to run into an issue.
Counting LBX, Light, etc...basically all autocannons...
Class 2 ranges from 20mm (30mm if just the AC/2) to 90mm (according to fluff but never seen larger than 80mm in a novel).
Class 5 ranges from 40mm to 120mm.
AC/10 ranges from 40mm to 120mm that I have seen so far (but a limit was never stated)
AC/20 ranges from 40mm (Pontiac 100 the famous 100 shot AC/20) to 203mm (if you restrict to IS sizes, 185mm is your high end.)

But before I continue, lets compare Rifles.
Light Rifle has the shortest range
Heavy Rifle at 8 tons has the longest range and a terrible shot count. The only fluffed example is the 190mm on the Arbiter and that's in the novel not the TRO.
Why Rifles? Because Rifles are based on your traditional tank shell. They lob about one or two shots per "round."

(A round for an autocannon/machine gun as defined is a cassette (magazine if you will) of ammunition which when fired off will net approximately the rated damage.) (Afterall, nobody's ever talked about how "1" machine gun bullet can do 2 damage... because its common knowledge that it isn't how MGs work. So why does everyone question Battletech's "giant machine guns" based on anti-aircraft weaponry?)

Ignoring the Pontiac series (its all 40mm), lets just compare the heaviest common caliber amongst the AC/5-20, "12cm" as we frequently see it in some of the novels or 120mm.
First, we have the GM Whirlwind/5. Its commonly accepted that it is either rated to fire 3-4 shells per second or that it flat out requires 3 shells to net 5 damage. Lets go with the second one as it gives us damage. 1.67 (shorthand rounding).
As such, 3 shells = 5 damage.
AC/10s of the same caliber can be assumed to fire twice as fast as the AC/5, or at least twice as much. Thus 6 shells = 10 damage... but accurate range for firing faster OR longer is cut.
AC/20s of the same caliber can therefore be assumed to fire four times as fast as the AC/5 or be able to sustain fire for 4 times as long. Either way, accurate range to land all the shells in the same area is cut to 270. Here we have 12 shells = 20 damage.

"But what about the RAC/5?"
Welp if we assume another 120mm (though only seen 50mm examples), at the same shell size it would need to fire 3*6 = 18 shells to net 30 damage...in 5 damage lots scattered on the enemy. So accuracy to the point of the same spot is lost, but we can still net 30 damage in total. So dropping "accurate range to land all the shells in one area" we now have "accurate range to just hit something without concern as to where (say you aim center mass and it goes all over the place due to recoil), you can generically hit something spraying and praying at 630 meters.

But lets break down the ammunition. Assume all shells are the same length as well as the same diameter.

3, 6, 12, (18/6).
AC/5 = 20*3 =60 shells
AC/10 = 10*6 = 60
AC/20 = 5*12 = 60
RAC/5 = 20*3 = 60 (fired 6 times in a turn, each 'time' consumes "1", so that salvo of 18 consumes 6 rounds or 18 shells)

Huh, would you look at that.
The only outlier is the AC/2, admittedly. Technically it just falls short, so while each of these get 100 damage per ton, the AC/2 only gets 90 damage per ton.

One way to look at this, is to compare how Battletech treats empty bins, empty cargo containers, etc.
When you have space for 5 tons of cargo... it consumes 5 tons just to have the space. Then you can load it with 5 tons and you're not "five tons heavier," you're just loaded. When you unload it you don't lose 5 tons, you're just unloaded. And that 5 tons technically has its own container holding it. Now compare an ammo bin, you empty 2 bins (2 tons) of ammo, you're not dropping from 100 tons to 98, you're still considered 100 tons. Just empty. Then you load of ton of ammunition you don't gain 1 ton, you've just refilled a bin of ammo. Even then that ammo had its own container to be able to be quickly loaded into the mech within the allotted turns to do so. Considering an ammo truck with a Patron loader mech can reload 1 ton in 10 seconds, that's pretty damn fast. So it never sheds its original container to be fed into some slot to roll the ammo in, its literally eject old container and load new one in.

With this, we can therefore safely assume that part of the weight is the container and how it is safely stored to avoid colliding with one another, similar to how your UPS packages are given protection inside the container. 10 to 20% of the weight can therefore be attributed to that container and the individual cassettes themselves, meaning 80 to 90% of the weight is actually ammunition. Now when you break that down, the weights not only are comparable to real life munitions, but sometimes end up being lighter than our modern ammo. As such what an AC/2 probably has going against its ammo is more weight dedicated to individual cassettes, considering it has 45 of them as opposed to 5-20.

Just food for thought. Though pancakes are funny.

So the long and short...
Autocannons are descendants of aircraft / anti-aircraft weaponry, from the 30mm Gau (used by aircraft) to the M242 Bushmaster (used by an APC), the BK (MLG) 27mm German naval autocannon (against air, naval and surface targets), etc.

They fire lots of bullets, because its hard to dodge a lot of bullets. As Catalyst's Battletech Battlemech Manual confirms, even a mech unable to move out of its hex is not considered immobile (and you can only "aim" shots on immobile targets/unconscious targets because mechs will try to defend/evade against firepower so long as the mech can move and the pilot is conscious; reasoning that pilot intent is required. Think of the Jigabachi on Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex season 2 when the pilot dies of a heart attack and the whole debacle that went on because he still had brain activity so the helicopter tried to defend its pilot... bit of a problem, so if the pilot isn't conscious, its not going to do anything. Makes a smart safety measure). (Their dodging/blocking is why arms are so prone to being hit when the smartest thing would be to aim for the legs or head).

The reduced range is because of increased firing time / firing rate to net the same amount of damage among common calibers.

Accurate range for the RAC drops "range to land all shells on one spot" in favor of "range to just hit something...anywhere."

"Rifles" (Light through Heavy) are descendants of tank cannons and lost their use in military forces though civilians still use them.

Rifles, as much slower firing weapons, properly increase in accurate range as the cannon gets larger, as firing "2 to 10 times faster" or "2 to 10 times as much" is not a factor negatively impacting range.

So I managed to take one post, stuff it into another, and bam.

[Karl Streiger]

Well considering the "creation" process of tow of the weapons on my current BT-Tank (two days planning and thinking) it helps to have a defined role for the weapon. This is based on the task the vehicle/mech is used for.

For the Demolisher - why did they mount ChemSets and not Imperator Ds or Zeus 36 or a Zeus 75 or the Deathgiver, or the Mech Hunter?
Of course the ChemSet is quite unique because in everything but on paper it's a caseless AC - that allows like artiilery guns to alter the amount of propellant, for different ballistic curves and ranges.

My initial idea was to make it an Assault Mortar - or Gun Mortar. Simple because of its name

Quote

The noun form of demolish is demolition, which often implies destruction by means of explosives

so it would be absolutely correct to say the ChemSet is an autoloading gun-mortar that lobs huge high explosives at a target.

This would however not be a tank you want to use facing enemy armor - the ballistic tractory would make hitting a mobile target like a Mech painful.... although if it hits or in close proximity (fuse) it can shatter armor over a huge area
(you know the Renegade Legion Armor Diagramm (was used by BattleSpace aswell)

I really like that you can have different characteristics - those might be 3 AC 20s each AC20 remove 6 blocks of armor but each do it differently.

The question is how to turn this into the abstract one hit-zone armor diagram of BT?

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 29 March 2019 - 01:16 AM, said:

Well considering the "creation" process of tow of the weapons on my current BT-Tank (two days planning and thinking) it helps to have a defined role for the weapon. This is based on the task the vehicle/mech is used for.

For the Demolisher - why did they mount ChemSets and not Imperator Ds or Zeus 36 or a Zeus 75 or the Deathgiver, or the Mech Hunter?
Of course the ChemSet is quite unique because in everything but on paper it's a caseless AC - that allows like artiilery guns to alter the amount of propellant, for different ballistic curves and ranges.

My initial idea was to make it an Assault Mortar - or Gun Mortar. Simple because of its name
so it would be absolutely correct to say the ChemSet is an autoloading gun-mortar that lobs huge high explosives at a target.

This would however not be a tank you want to use facing enemy armor - the ballistic tractory would make hitting a mobile target like a Mech painful.... although if it hits or in close proximity (fuse) it can shatter armor over a huge area
(you know the Renegade Legion Armor Diagramm (was used by BattleSpace aswell)

I really like that you can have different characteristics - those might be 3 AC 20s each AC20 remove 6 blocks of armor but each do it differently.

The question is how to turn this into the abstract one hit-zone armor diagram of BT?

Truth be told in an ideal world I'd use my sub-section hitbox mechanic. In reality I have no idea how difficult tweaking the hitboxes would be until I try it. This isn't Unreal 1.5 with Deus Ex where there's a collision box which sub-divides it into 5 core components (head, left arm right arm torso left leg and right leg) depending on where on the box you hit. (Also it was more of a cylinder). Much will be similar, much will be different.

If I could do this, then lower damage weapons and non-boating will make even more sense as "overkill" will basically be extremely wasteful. Much like Gauss slugs passing through mechs to knock them back and leave gaping holes, overkilling a sub-section of the body would basically blast through and waste so much damage potential as it just keeps going. So we put a hole through mid-left torso...so what? There wasn't anything there and now that merc is just pissed about the bill he'll have to pay to fix it, meanwhile that enemy Gauss Rifle in the left torso of the Corsair we wanted to kill is now gonna see what happens when his slug goes through our cockpit...

----------

I will certainly put some more thought into it. Something like the Rommel uses the high caliber of its Defiance Mech Hunter for a hefty first punch and a decent rapid fallback while using its low-profile design to hide in places like parking garages and other low spaces...like a certain turret-less tank in Girls Und Panzer.

There's a few theories as to why.
First for the Monitor, its a seaborne vessel with a need to deliver powerful damage in as few punches as possible. It needs to be able to fire over barricades on beach targets, lob over allied vessels in the sea, and comparatively the Mech Mortar's wide area saturation has no real bunker busting properties.

The Demolisher is intended to destroy what it finds with raw firepower. The short story associated with it had the issue of it being used to guard a facility -- one that a Spider was all too happy to keep between itself and the Demolisher. There is also the point that long range would be confounding to the Demolisher's heavy firepower... with no secondary armaments, it needs a way to deal with that. Trickle-shooting smaller calibers at long range isn't going to get the job done. In TRO 3026, the goal was to build a tank that can take out Battlemechs and sell them to worlds unable to afford Battlemechs. (In other words capitalize on a desperate market that others just wouldn't tap).

As for why they insisted on pushing two of them and two barrels instead of a united faster firing barrel like on the Behemoth... the nature of the Chemjet Gun could basically explain that away. Lets say you're tracking a fast target or a hardened target. Filling and shooting this weapon, no matter how quick, is never gonna be as fast as simply pulling the trigger. Whether direct fire or indirect fire, a single barrel means if you miss, you got no backup until its ready to go again. But with a second barrel, your backup can be loading either at the same time or in sequence with the first, so whether you're going for that double WHAM or you're looking to pump steady fire down range... the twins have you covered.

You'd think a tank like this would have standardized support vehicles, but often you see this thing alone or in pairs...

Made a lot of edits on the previous page and started to consolidate the ACs a bit.

[Koniving]

Have been working on this more behind the scenes, as well as:
MW5 Mercs Mod Plan Energy
MW5 Mercs Mod Plan Missiles
MW5 Mercs Mod Plan Heat-System
MW5 Mercs Mod Fantasies (a list of **** I wish I could do but simply don't have enough knowledge/skill to actually put it into the game by myself that maybe someone else could. Such as tying a key to bring the shield arm forward, or being able to push Q or E to raise the left or right arm up to eye level for a shot to pull off over-the-wall shooting rather than from the hip. Prone/Hulldown positions. Melee. Etc.)..

Its come to my attention while researching the Crusher SH Cannon....that the Quickcell Company is the very definition of the "PGI" under the reliability joke... except Quickcell isn't a joke; its far worse.
Poorly paid unskilled labor.
Slap a single molded piece of armor on the chassis of a decently sized truck after cutting some holes for the manways and gun to call it a tank.
... and about half the time just throw in the targeting system, optics, etc into the middle of it and call it a day.
You might be able to finish installing the equipment yourself if they were so kind as to include the bolts....but half the time they don't.
Lets not forget that the Hetzer with its AC/20 was a call for a defensive ARTILLERY piece...and it isn't artillery or even long range due to a really short barrel and a mandatory cassette-depleting trigger pull. Imagine an M14 EBR Rifle where a single trigger pull fired off every single bullet in your magazine, except you're mounted on a less than stable platform that will even-with-the-emergency-brake slide backwards when you fire and depending on conditions, even cause your 45 ton wheeled "tank" (its really more of an IFV than a tank) to 'pop-a-wheelie' a couple of inches off the ground.

It sounds wonderful; dirt cheap stuff, shoddy quality, "some assembly required", broken equipment installed on a brand new vehicle...and soldiers don't want to trade in old equipment for a new Quickcell product because at least they know the old one works after all the hours they poured into putting it together because we all know that's not what assembly and finishers are for in a manufacturing plant, right?

Then after all this absolutely wonderful ****... It says the Quickcell made Crusher SH Cannon is....Reliable.
Are...you...kidding...me?

As such...
I'll be putting it as "Reliable...really.?"
Because no, given the company that makes it the weapon is probably anything but reliable.

Edited by Koniving, 04 April 2019 - 10:33 AM.

[Requiemking]

Just gonna pop in and add a couple more for your list.

Mydron A: produced by Bithinian Ballistics for the Urbanmech and by Yeffters Weapon factory for the Lightning Aerospace fighter.

Scarborough Original 20: produced by Scarborough Manufacturers for the Saladin Hovertank.

Armstrong Requiem: Produced by United Outworld Corperation for use in locally built Lighting aerospace fighters, also shipped off to Alpheratz for use in Rommel tanks by Alliance Defenders Limited.

Imperator Zeta-A: produced by Imperator Automatic Weaponry for use on the Riever Aerospace fighter.

Luxor Devastator-20: Produced by Johnston Industries for use on the Axman Heavy mech.

Zeus-36, Mark III: manufacturer unknown, most used on the Cyclops Assault mech.

Edited by Requiemking, 06 April 2019 - 09:11 PM.

[Koniving]

Requiemking, on 06 April 2019 - 09:10 PM, said:

Just gonna pop in and add a couple more for your list.

Mydron A: produced by Bithinian Ballistics for the Urbanmech and by Yeffters Weapon factory for the Lightning Aerospace fighter.

Scarborough Original 20: produced by Scarborough Manufacturers for the Saladin Hovertank.

Armstrong Requiem: Produced by United Outworld Corperation for use in locally built Lighting aerospace fighters, also shipped off to Alpheratz for use in Rommel tanks by Alliance Defenders Limited.

Imperator Zeta-A: produced by Imperator Automatic Weaponry for use on the Riever Aerospace fighter.

Luxor Devastator-20: Produced by Johnston Industries for use on the Axman Heavy mech.

Zeus-36, Mark III: manufacturer unknown, most used on the Cyclops Assault mech.

Thank you. Been in a lull as I'm also working on other things. Such as an MWO mockup of some of these. Unfortunately I've discovered that long macro examples to give a perfectly timed sample of King Crab's deathgiver at regular burst fire spaced out, then immediately upon reloading shell out a full cassette as quickly as possible, reload and do it again (pushing it to the point of weapon overheat) can crash autohotkey... So I've found my life is easier if I don't go for timing precision. Also found another set of examples for visual references, acquired some physical models of modularity to help me design an approximation of how weapon systems will change from the generic autocannon to something you can hopefully distinctly recognize from 270 meters away.

And my first experience with "real grade" and master grade Gundam / Patlabor / Full Metal Panic and other model kits...in other words with the internals and everything. To help fuel certain ideas.
------------
Anyway:
Mydron as a series is far more popular than that of course, its actually freakishly common. The company as a whole is an entertaining read, though not quite as fun as Quickcell was.

The only three I'm not familiar with is the Scarborough, the Zeus, and the Imperator Zeta (familiar with Imperator's main line but not their Zeta subseries) Thank you. Also thank you for coming in and reading.

[Karl Streiger]

Uhm the Zeus seems to be a brand of its own.
Would say it has to be somewhere in the FWL, also producing LRMs and of course the famous Zeus Rifle.
I think the AC10 of the Slayer is a Zeus as well. I know that the MechBuster is somewhere mentioned with a Zeus rather a MechHunter.
Scarabough is the manufacturer of the Saracen, Saladin and Scimitar so I bet the AC20 is just a license build.

There are some consequences as well, for example the SarLon (build into Behemoth and Zhukov as Maxi s mounted in the Warrior as Mini, in the text is the mention of a Warrior with AC5 the SarLon Maxi.
So either Maxi is a question of Chamber, in this case, AC5 and AC10 use the same ammunition, or its a name of the brand in this case it should be named Medi.

Also the LBX from Defiance, the Class 2 from the Uziel (I think) is named Shredder. The LB20X, first of its name, Disintegrator.
A older LB10 on the Dragoon uses a Ravager LB10X. However all Class 10 LBX of Defiance are called Disintegrator as well.
So again is it the Chamber or just an addition like "Magnum".

[Koniving]

And probably as useless as Magnum P.I... sounds cool, kinda isn't.

Anyway for those wondering, I'm "occasionally" adding things on the first page. Decided to dedicate one of the posts entirely to autocannons. May slip Ultras in there. Another one is currently dedicated to LBX but may also include Rifles and MGs. Though incomplete, I added a couple of upcoming placeholders and slipped in an also incomplete Crusher. (Its missing the fluff aspects mostly). Given the Hetzer fluff in that the Hetzer was supposed to be field artillery, and....despite this nothing was noted about how "oh they put an AC/20 instead" it just immediately goes into it has an AC/20 that can devastate mechs in less than 10 seconds with a ten shot burst.

And I'm like...but...but....defensive field artillery unit...and shortest range AC one could imagine AC/20.... artillery... AC/20....
....why does this keep happening? I almost get the impression that AC/20 range wasn't (<-edit) supposed to be so short... So I came up with a cheap-and-lazy way to make it into artillery... in the spirit of the Quikscell company which is also cheap and lazy. Between its special hyper velocity shells, really short barrel (that does appear to be able to aim up and down though not terribly high), the ten shot burst, the strange mention of special firing optics, and I imagine no effort made into giving firing options... I've combined these together and came up with this:

It has absolutely abysmal accuracy beyond super short range, but between the firing rate, the long range potential of hyper velocity shells, and the chassis-and-suspension of what I'm assuming is a like a dump truck (they just say truck but I can't imagine a regular pickup truck hauling 45 tons), that thing's gonna rock all over when firing, which in turn can spread the shot over an area... Voila, "field artillery." Job done, light my cigar and sign the paper, product comes as is with no warranty and no refunds.

Edited by Koniving, 09 April 2019 - 08:30 AM.

[Requiemking]

Koniving, on 06 April 2019 - 11:04 PM, said:

The only three I'm not familiar with is the Scarborough, the Zeus, and the Imperator Zeta (familiar with Imperator's main line but not their Zeta subseries) Thank you. Also thank you for coming in and reading.

Well, according to what I can find on Sarna, Zeta-a appears to be their main-line AC 20 variant. Imperator's whole line, from the data table on Sarna, consists of:

-Imperator Smoothie-2(AC2)

-Imperator Zeta-a(AC20)

-Imperator Code Red(LB10X)

-Imperator Ultra-5/10(UAC5 and 110 respectively)

-Imperator Dragon's Fire(Gauss Rifle)

-Imperator Napoleon(LAC5)

They also built a LAC2, but it isn't named.

Edited by Requiemking, 08 April 2019 - 03:15 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Requiemking, on 08 April 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:

Well, according to what I can find on Sarna, Zeta-a appears to be their main-line AC 20 variant. Imperator's whole line, from the data table on Sarna, consists of:

-Imperator Smoothie-2(AC2)

-Imperator Zeta-a(AC20)

-Imperator Code Red(LB10X)

-Imperator Ultra-5/10(UAC5 and 110 respectively)

-Imperator Dragon's Fire(Gauss Rifle)

-Imperator Napoleon(LAC5)

They also built a LAC2, but it isn't named.

The issue is that manufacturers are chosen by random or for the sound of it at least in the FASA rule books.
You see it when you look at the letters
Imperator A - MAC (AC5)
Imperator B - HAC (AC10)
Imperator D - HVAC(20)
Wait where does the letter C - accordingly to the manufacturers listen in the HMP or SSW tools an Imperator exists as AC2.
And if course there are several names for the Imperator Zeta.

So for the plan its best to drop the idea of an Imperator AC2, or use the Smoothie and Zeta for a chamber type - say short burst of 60mm rounds and use the same chamber for the Letter Series with bigger caliber and a doubling of the rate of fire (there is the D (D = 2xB as well as B =2xA)

However, I would simple any Imperator AC2 (Mauler and Partisan Upgrade) and the Imp Zeta (Riever (a) and Hammerhead) and the Imperator X (Deathstalker).
There are more than enough other manufacturers that might be the better option (Pontiac 100 or Pontiac 50 for the ASFs as an example

Edited by Karl Streiger, 09 April 2019 - 04:15 AM.

[Koniving]

What's funny is the different companies are inconsistent in their naming convention.
Mydron makes D as the class 2 and A as the class 20.

Imperator makes A the class 5, B the class 10, and D the class 20.

There is not a single Imperator C on Sarna, but searching for it brings up the Imperator Code Red aka the LBX 10...which seems to be the only one. So I wonder if perhaps originally it was going to be A 5 B 10 C LBX 10 and D 20.

One thing universally true of Imperator: They exclusively make automatic weapons. Even their infantry weapons; though from what I seen they think assault rifles with underslung grenade launchers are SMGs...

That's....an SMG?
So it says. Advantage is it fires a larger bullet out of a larger barrel, giving it longer range accuracy...
Sounds like a "That's not a knife, this is a knife" situation.
Much as I love Crocodile Dundee, this image fits just a bit better.

There was one with Stark holding his broadsword...would have fit even better but I can't get it over without saving it to my host...so blah!

Also here's an imperator Rifle.

Which honestly looks more like an oversized SMG....

Basically I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that Imperator Automatic Weaponry is basically like an ORK.

There's just never enough dakka. Rat-tat-tat is for chumps.

As such, between the Imperator D's on the King Crab (which are already well fluffed as a gun with no down time until it overheats) and the many variations; Imperators are generally gonna be automatic. Mostly belt, some cassette, and likely some will use revolving cassette feeds so that at least a few can churn out firepower from one cassette as it swaps out another. They're going to push the envelope in volume of fire, perhaps even have a Pontiac-like weapon as well. Though we do know that despite enjoying fully automatic weapons, they also try to get edges with longer barrels and bigger bullets, so we'll see some of that as well.

I think if anything is going to end up with the oversized weapon slot, its gonna be a couple of the "named" Imperator autocannons. Extended-barrels on a high caliber Gatling Cannon? Imperator will do it!

----------------
I've noticed Zeta-A, and Zeta. Seems to be an odd distinction but Zeta-A appears to be isolated to only one page on Sarna.net and not on anything, so it seems to be a typo. It also has no references. Zeta is all over the place.

I do have Code Reds on my novel list. One 80mm (Warrior en Guard) and one 100mm (Flashpoint)

(Side note: I noticed Mydron Excel refers to both UAC and LBX but both of the same caliber 80mm)

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 09 April 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

I've noticed Zeta-A and Zeta. Seems to be an odd distinction but Zeta-A appears to be isolated to only one page on Sarna.net and not on anything, so it seems to be a typo. It also has no references. Zeta is all over the place.

Zeta-a on the Riever, Zeta on the Hammerhead search function through all TROs 3026 to 3085 didn't find other entries.
Although I need to look into my old TRO3025 somewhere in a box in the cellar - would bet that the AC20s of the KingCrab are Deathgivers rather the Imperator-Ds. (Although why does the same company produce two class 20s? (Defiance and Imperator doesn't make sense.

[Koniving]

I've come to notice the mobilesuit RX 78 carries a machine gun... Its referred to on more than one model kit in English as "100mm machine gun", but in Japanese as オートキャノン 100mm.
"Autocannon."
Given that the RX79 GM and gundam are both 19m... To think Battlemechs are supposed to be a fair bit shorter than these..

This video kinda takes a new meaning. Though understandably the 100mm ACs in MW5 like BT are going to be fairly more effective than the 100mm AC there.
Also fun:
The big Rifle is 180mm..
The Heavy Rifle in BT is 190mm..
Both are referred to as Rifles.
The Gouf's gatling is 75mm, a somewhat common caliber in early BT that eventually just shifted to 80mm.
Also fun; where do you think BT's Seismic sensor came from? Universal Century Gundam.
Also also fun: Patlabor's revolver cannon is 35mm and the shotgun is 90mm caliber.

Comparing average Japanese height in the year the TV series was made with scale comparisons to 9cm (90mm) and that barrel diameter is fairly accurate.

Edited by Koniving, 09 April 2019 - 11:12 AM.

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 09 April 2019 - 10:39 AM, said:

Zeta-a on the Riever, Zeta on the Hammerhead search function through all TROs 3026 to 3085 didn't find other entries.
Although I need to look into my old TRO3025 somewhere in a box in the cellar - would bet that the AC20s of the KingCrab are Deathgivers rather the Imperator-Ds. (Although why does the same company produce two class 20s? (Defiance and Imperator doesn't make sense.

The 000 KGC uses Deathgivers
The Imperator-Ds are the "downgrade" for the 0000.

With Zeta-A only being on a heavy aerospace fighter, I'm probably not going to bother with it unless a Riever turns out to be in MW5, as there's no details about it.

[MechaBattler]

RX-78-2 is primarily armed with a beam rifle or a hyper bazooka. I think you're thinking of the RX-79[G] which was made from spare parts of the RX-78 line, it also had a beam rifle, but it had a variety of other weapon options. Bazookas, missile launchers, beam rifles, 180mm cannon, and of course 100mm machine gun. There was at least one RX-79 that had a gundam hammer. Which is literally a spiked ball with propulsion built in on a chain.

[Koniving]

Ask H&K why they make so many SMGs.
Different circumstances, different needs.

[Koniving]

MechaBattler, on 09 April 2019 - 10:58 AM, said:

RX-78-2 is primarily armed with a beam rifle or a hyper bazooka. I think you're thinking of the RX-79[G] which was made from spare parts of the RX-78 line, it also had a beam rifle, but it had a variety of other weapon options. Bazookas, missile launchers, beam rifles, 180mm cannon, and of course 100mm machine gun. There was at least one RX-79 that had a gundam hammer. Which is literally a spiked ball with propulsion built in on a chain.

Right the RX 79[G] GM Ground Type [and the gundam of the same model]

They could swap weapons...like Wolverine...before BT suddenly decided that in order to simplify the customization rules, "pilots soon had their weapons permanently welded to prevent having them stolen by the enemy and used against themselves."

Which completely went against one of the biggest gimmicks of the Wolverine.
If you ever play a match in Megamek, the first thing you should do is jettsion (or just ignore) your autocannon and get into a slug fest with the nearest enemy, grapples and all.
No stock mech does it better in the medium class than the Wolverine.
Though the Hunchback and Centurion AL will put up a hell of a fight.
Most other mechs are a push over.

[Koniving]

Straying to manufacturers that make a lot of the same thing..
Johnston Industries and its Poland Gauss Rifles

Model A, Model C, Model R..
I'm sure it makes just about everything from A to Z, and they're all standard Gauss Rifles.
Could it be different mount locations? Different actual features?
Who knows?
Found a Main Model X on a Challenge Mark XV (15)

Poland Main Model C also frequently refers to a Magshot, and Poland Model A under Gauss Rifle has some fluff about theft of Magshot which is apparently a half ton Gauss Rifle for use against small targets.

Welp apparently just A, C, R and X.

Edited by Koniving, 09 April 2019 - 11:23 AM.