36 replies to this topic

[G4LV4TR0N]

No other word needed.

[El Bandito]

Balance nightmare. Dunno if PGI can pull it off.

[Vellron2005]

A random map generator would probably imply procedural map generation, which is not possible in Cryengine, or at least in PGI's iteration of it..

What is needed is a switch to Unreal4 engine, which is the most powerfull game-design tool right now, and which is king of procedural map generation (just ask Star Citizen).

Personally, I would love randomly created maps.. would make the game super-awesome and bring it into the next generation of quality games..

But.. alas..

PGI.

[RestosIII]

El Bandito, on 11 September 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

Balance nightmare. Dunno if PGI can pull it off.

I've never seen a random map generator create balanced PvP maps before, and I honestly don't foresee it happening anytime soon.

This game especially would have difficulty attempting to keep it so that any game mode besides Skirmish is possible without horrible problems, and even in Skirmish there's the issues of cover, from things like LRMs, to proper terrain for Assaults to travel through. That's not even getting into the issue of it generating a map before a match starts, and sending all the relevant details to everyone's PCs.

And to top it all off, it would collapse one of the main skills in this game: Proper situational awareness and positioning. We'd need a full 3D map to be able to understand the terrain at a glance, otherwise you'd most likely lead your team into a dead end, or a massive killing field.

TL;DR: I feel like it would be a waste of resources that would make matches less fun.

Edited by RestosIII, 11 September 2017 - 10:45 PM.

[Daggett]

Vellron2005, on 11 September 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

What is needed is a switch to Unreal4 engine, which is the most powerfull game-design tool right now, and which is king of procedural map generation (just ask Star Citizen).

Sorry, i don't get your point with Star Citizen as an example here...

First, Star Citizen is not using UE4, it's using Lumberyard (which is a heavily modified Cryengie btw).
Second, Planets in Star Citizen are not fully procedural. They are still artist-driven, the artist just has some procedural generation tools available to be able to quickly create huge areas.

Edited by Daggett, 12 September 2017 - 03:34 AM.

[Mechteric]

Won't happen ever, no other words needed.

[Kanil]

RestosIII, on 11 September 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

We'd need a full 3D map to be able to understand the terrain at a glance, otherwise you'd most likely lead your team into a dead end, or a massive killing field.

Exploring the map sounds like a good reason to bring a 'mech of the most underused and least relevant weight class, perhaps?

Assuming you get a brand new map every game you play, I'm not sure how important balance really ends up being. Yeah, the map will never be balanced, but can the team for which the map is imbalanced figure out why it's imbalanced and exploit it in the ~6 minutes that the match lasts? I'd assume in most cases they wouldn't.

[Jun Watarase]

Vellron2005, on 11 September 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

A random map generator would probably imply procedural map generation, which is not possible in Cryengine, or at least in PGI's iteration of it..

What is needed is a switch to Unreal4 engine, which is the most powerfull game-design tool right now, and which is king of procedural map generation (just ask Star Citizen).

Personally, I would love randomly created maps.. would make the game super-awesome and bring it into the next generation of quality games..

But.. alas..

PGI.

Isnt the unreal 4 engine REALLY old at this point? I thought newer engines are usually better?

[Athom83]

I'd like to share my story with the random map selection. Frozen, Frozen, Frozen, Alpine, River, Frozen Frozen, Polar, Alpine, Terra. And this has been my story.

Now lets tell the story of map generation tilesets; Frozen, Frozen, Frozen, Grim, HPG, Frozen, Terra, Frozen, Caustic. This has been a story about generation.

Edited by Athom83, 12 September 2017 - 05:47 AM.

[MCY Xale]

Jun Watarase, on 12 September 2017 - 03:25 AM, said:

Isnt the unreal 4 engine REALLY old at this point? I thought newer engines are usually better?

Its a couple of years old, but game engines last for a long time these days and nothing remarkable. Battlefield 1 engine for example is even older. Evolution is not as rapid as it was in the 90s and earlier 2000, when we were still figuring out how to do 3D efficiently. These days thats a solved problem, and therefore engines do not need to be rewritten or updated much.

When a game looks better than its predecessor today - its generally only because a greater attention to detail; nothing involving the engine.

Additionally, a newer game engine by age is not necessarily going to be better - each has weaknesses for different types of games/environments. Additionally, a newer engine is not necessarily going to be easier to develop for.

Keep in mind that updates and features are still being released for UE4. For example, UE4 is compatible with Microsoft's DX12, Khronos' Vulkan, and Apple's Metal. Its also VR compatible.

Edited by MCY Xale, 12 September 2017 - 05:15 AM.

[Athom83]

Jun Watarase, on 12 September 2017 - 03:25 AM, said:

Isnt the unreal 4 engine REALLY old at this point? I thought newer engines are usually better?

General they are if they were made from competent people, but there are a lot of cases where slightly older engine can outperform newer ones for a given purpose. For MWO, Unreal 4 would be one of the best options available for what PGI seem to want to be doing.

[adamts01]

El Bandito, on 11 September 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

Balance nightmare. Dunno if PGI can pull it off.

RestosIII, on 11 September 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

I've never seen a random map generator create balanced PvP maps before, and I honestly don't foresee it happening anytime soon.

This game especially would have difficulty attempting to keep it so that any game mode besides Skirmish is possible without horrible problems, and even in Skirmish there's the issues of cover, from things like LRMs, to proper terrain for Assaults to travel through. That's not even getting into the issue of it generating a map before a match starts, and sending all the relevant details to everyone's PCs.

And to top it all off, it would collapse one of the main skills in this game: Proper situational awareness and positioning. We'd need a full 3D map to be able to understand the terrain at a glance, otherwise you'd most likely lead your team into a dead end, or a massive killing field.

TL;DR: I feel like it would be a waste of resources that would make matches less fun.

I'd happily accept unbalanced maps if it meant something different every match. It's not like matches are balanced anyway.

Most of the terrain bugs were due to fancy crap, all the twigs and crap in the bog for example. I'd accept much more simple maps if it meant new gameplay every match.

Situational awareness and positioning would go out the window?...... Quite the opposite. Teams getting led in to kill zones and dead ends? We've been asking for a meaningful role for lights as scouts since forever ago. This would be a perfect opportunity. You don't know what terrain is up ahead, neither does the enemy, and you have zero idea where anyone is. It would be incredible.

You do have a point with downloads, so how about a new set of maps every day, maybe 2 or 3 of them? My brother is all about a game called natural selection, they download the map as they load in to the game, so it's possible, especially if there was a classic map or generated map option. Or maybe CW could be the generated map mode, it fit the team players best anyway.

[El Bandito]

adamts01, on 12 September 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

I'd happily accept unbalanced maps if it meant something different every match. It's not like matches are balanced anyway.

Adding unbalanced maps on top of unbalanced MM? I am pretty sure big percentage of the player population will not like it.

[Athom83]

El Bandito, on 12 September 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

Adding unbalanced maps on top of unbalanced MM? I am pretty sure big percentage of the player population will not like it.

Yah, its almost as if MWO had a random map selection and the community absolutely hated it and wanted something else. But that couldn't be because there are a tiny group of people that treat random maps like a deity, right?

Edit; I just realized this is about random map generation, and not random map selection...

Edited by Athom83, 12 September 2017 - 05:46 AM.

[Kanil]

El Bandito, on 12 September 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

Adding unbalanced maps on top of unbalanced MM? I am pretty sure big percentage of the player population will not like it.

Unless you explore the whole damn map before engaging the enemy, how do you actually know the map was unbalanced against you? I mean, if the map conjures up a highly favorable bit of terrain on your side of the map, and you don't find it and rush into the enemy's killzone... isn't that them playing better than your team?

Furthermore, is an unbalanced map really that big of a deal, considering we currently have... exactly 0 symmetrical, perfectly balanced maps as-is?

[El Bandito]

Kanil, on 12 September 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Unless you explore the whole damn map before engaging the enemy, how do you actually know the map was unbalanced against you? I mean, if the map conjures up a highly favorable bit of terrain on your side of the map, and you don't find it and rush into the enemy's killzone... isn't that them playing better than your team?

Furthermore, is an unbalanced map really that big of a deal, considering we currently have... exactly 0 symmetrical, perfectly balanced maps as-is?

Which is why PGI had to spent time and resources to revamp dropzones and geographical features on several maps due to their unbalanced design. It costs PGI time, and makes the playerbase cranky. Hence I do not think random map generator is a good idea in practice--assuming PGI can even create RMG.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 September 2017 - 07:57 AM.

[Kanil]

Thinking about it more, "large lumpy mass of terrain with few noteworthy features or interesting topography" describes a likely RMG map about as well as it describes Polar Highlands. Given how often people vote for Polar, maybe the playerbase would really like RMG?

[adamts01]

El Bandito, on 12 September 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

Which is why PGI had to spent time and resources to revamp dropzones and geographical features on several maps due to their unbalanced design. It costs PGI time, and makes the playerbase cranky. Hence I do not think random map generator is a good idea in practice--assuming PGI can even create RMG.

Of course none of this is happening, but I'd be all for it if it did. Those maps with "unbalanced" terrain only became that way once teams figured out the best places to camp. If your scouts were able to find such a place on a random map, then good for them. A Candy Mountain type of map should be avoided, but all that's needed for that would be a condition that any high points would need surrounding high points within a certain distance.

Kanil, on 12 September 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

Thinking about it more, "large lumpy mass of terrain with few noteworthy features or interesting topography" describes a likely RMG map about as well as it describes Polar Highlands. Given how often people vote for Polar, maybe the playerbase would really like RMG?

Who's to say there can't be random urban areas? Or randeom big *** rocks? Or random tunnels? Or random canyons with guaranteed ramps every 150m? The maps would have to be uglier, but the variety of matches would be well worth it to me. And I actually do like polar, fights happen all over that map, there's no dominating position, and maneuver warfare is key. Camping gets you killed. It could use some more cover from LRMs, but that's about it.

[Athom83]

adamts01, on 12 September 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Of course none of this is happening, but I'd be all for it if it did. Those maps with "unbalanced" terrain only became that way once teams figured out the best places to camp. If your scouts were able to find such a place on a random map, then good for them. A Candy Mountain type of map should be avoided, but all that's needed for that would be a condition that any high points would need surrounding high points within a certain distance.

You say that, but you'll be thinking something else when that "scout finds a spot" 10 matches in a row in completely onesidded generations.

adamts01, on 12 September 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Who's to say there can't be random urban areas? Or randeom big *** rocks? Or random tunnels? Or random canyons with guaranteed ramps every 150m?

Because map generation that complex would lead to 5+ minute map loading times, for every, single, match. Yah... I think its not such a good idea.

adamts01, on 12 September 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

The maps would have to be uglier, but the variety of matches would be well worth it to me. And I actually do like polar, fights happen all over that map, there's no dominating position, and maneuver warfare is key. Camping gets you killed. It could use some more cover from LRMs, but that's about it.

I'd rather PGI work on more maps, and add variants to existing maps where Objectives and Spawns can be placed in different areas.

[DAYLEET]

El Bandito, on 11 September 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

Balance nightmare. Dunno if PGI can pull it off.

Not the way you think of balance, no. But from my own experiences, it balances out because each time the map is different and nobody knows the map, the best spot etc. Its not like the current map we played a million times and know the spots+actions that are most likely to fail or win. And even then boredom makes a lot of us ignore the common sense of always playing at the same fkin place yet again over and over for eternity twice^10.

I would not envision randomly generated in a competitive environment like comp play though. But for the fun part of mwo it would be great. Could be true random, ouch! hard to do. Or pre set building blocks, those make figuring out a map easier over time and im not fond of that but if theres enough variable it can feel new every time without everyone rushing to a side of a citadel.

Ideally randomly generated map would have a fog of war that hides terrain feature to certain extent and would need mech(scouts) to relay info(automaticaly done). Slows pacing maybe, or at least make sure both team arent just rushing to the same place from the get go.

Edited by DAYLEET, 12 September 2017 - 11:39 AM.