45 replies to this topic

[uwuziel]

One thing I'm sure everyone would love to see in game is the Arrow IV Artillery. I feel like it would give a tOTALLY different dynamic to the game as a whole and even might cause a meta-shift focusing more on tactical electronics and teamwork.

Some of my ideas for the Artillery and Homing version of the Arrow IV that I feel could fit into the game:
~~~~~~~

Arrow IV (Artillery):

450,000 c-bills

Damage: 25 (5 per missile, 5 missiles per volley)
15 Tons, 10 Slots
Heat 10
Cooldown: 5
Max Range: unlimited
Min Range: 180m
Velocity: 200
Spread: 5-10 (depending on distance)

Ammo per ton: 30 (6 volleys)
10,000 c-bills
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How this one would work is you open the map and choose a spot for the missiles to hit. The Missiles fly up into the air and "x" seconds later that section of the map gets bombed. something to take note is the trajectory that the Arrow IV would take. Rather than being like LRMS where it fires in a niiiiice smooooth arc, the Arrows would fly Upwards, cruise in the direction needed, and then slowly arc back down. <insert MS Paint diagram>
and Yes, this IS insisting that you can face the opposite direction of the enemy team and still have your shots hit. That is the whole idea and point of the Arrow IV system. The missiles move high and slow so they can adjust trajectory as needed.



Something else special about it is that it would deal splash damage, each missile dealing splash damage in a 45m radius. This effect could be very similar to the consumable artillery strikes.

To help balance it, It has a long cooldown, and would have an incredibly long travel time. Maybe even make the missile trail super bright so people could SEE it coming, or have it leave smoke trails so people can see Where it was launched from.

It also would only have 6 volleys per ton of ammo, 3 for every half ton. That may need to see a small increase
Something else to balance it a bit more is to have the missiles spread out a liiitle bit more the further they travel, having a min spread of 5 which gets larger from 510m onward.
~~~~~~~

Arrow IV (Homing):

500,000 c-bills

Damage: 25 (5 per missile, 5 missiles per volley)
15 Tons, 10 Slots
Heat 10
Cooldown: 5
Max Range: unlimited
Min Range: 180m
Velocity: 200
Spread: 4.5

Ammo per ton: 30 (6 volleys)
15,000 c-bils
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Now this is when stuff gets technical. The homing arrow will not a REQUIRE A LOCK BUT A TAG to operate. Arrow IV (H) Missiles, if fired without a tagged target, will shoot up into the sky as normal, and detonate mid-air after 3 seconds. If fired, and someone on the enemy team is tagged, the missiles will shoot upwards with a large spread, and then the spread will shrink to 4 as they near the target. If the lock or the tag is lost at any time the missiles will continue on their current trajectory until 3 seconds have passed (where the missiles will detonate (still dealing damage to anything nearby)) or they make impact. If multiple enemies are tagged, the Arrow will go after the one that the pilot has locked. If there is no lock, it will simply hit the closest tagged target.
Yes, this STILL insisting that you can look one way and your missiles hit somewhere else. Again, justified because it needs a TAG lock. This isn't an auto-aim system.
~~~~~~~

I also would like to note that yes, in the Battletech universe Arrow IV uses 15 slots. However, there are mechs in the game that cant even hold 15 slots, so I insist on 10. I want my Catapult C3 but it only has 10 arm slots!
The Battletech universe also gives the Arrow 5 volleys per ton of ammo. Seeing as PGI recently buffed the ammo economy across the board, I feel like having a few more shots would make the Arrow more viable.
Battletech also has some sources list 4dmg per missile, but some other sources have 5??? With a weapon of this style i feel like its better to use the 5 dmg missiles to help justify using the Arrow IV over say an LRM 20. MWO Is already apocryphal so it's not like and of this is breaking the universe or anything \ ' -'/
~~~~~~~

One more thing to remark is AMS. Yes, Arrow IV is a missile, albeit a very big one, so AMS should be able to shoot it. However an Arrow isn't built like an LRM. These are thicc bois. I feel each Arrow missile should have about ~90 health. That's a lot yes, but AMS does 106 per second, meaning one AMS could cut a volley of Arrow by a full 1/5, and that's just ONE AMS. Some mechs carry more than one, and most likely a team has more than one mech with AMS. So it may sound like a lot but don't forget, it usually takes 6-7 AMS to shoot down a single volley from an LRM 20, and just one AMS can nullify a LRM 5.
~~~~~~~

I feel like this would be a very interesting dynamic, and put a lot more emphasis on scouting and coordination. Yes, you can wait until the enemies are pushing through and just fire down on them as you spot them yourself, but it would be significantly more effective if you have a scout giving you coordinates and it would give a much more meaningful term to the word "scout." Right now I feel a lot of 'scouts' just pop out at the start od a match to spot targets initially and then turn themselves into micro-brawlers. Adding a powerful weapon that rewards actual teamwork I feel would be a nice healthy boost to the game!

maybe this will justify adding the Strider and Slave computers to the game as well
Obviously this design idea isn't perfect but that's why I'm posting it here. This could be a really cool discussion idea and if we work some stuff out perhaps PGI might actually add it in! (Hence why "Brainstorm" is in the title)
so lets get some ideas together and discuss!

[FupDup]

TL;DR: PGI will never change the critslot requirements of any item ever.

[LordNothing]

my idea has always been to knock it down to 10 slots and make the ammo 3 slots per ton. so running one with 2 tons of ammo would take up as much space as 14 slots and 2 tons single slot ammo.

another idea i had was to make it 11 slots. and 2 slots per ton for ammo. a cat c3 simply wouldn't come with shoulder actuators and would behave as if it was torso mounted. unless the mech was strictly designed to arm mount the weapon you would have to keep it in the torso.

Edited by LordNothing, 06 April 2019 - 05:43 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

Better Idea, make it a consumable and requires the TAG to mark the target till the missile hits. Then they can add in Arrow IV cluster and Arrow IV Smoke.

[uwuziel]

FupDup, on 06 April 2019 - 04:47 PM, said:

TL;DR: PGI will never change the critslot requirements of any item ever.

Ah ok I hear you. Makes sense that they wouldn't want to mess with something like that.

This does get me thinking though. I don't have too much experience with the OG battletech board game but if the Catapult only has 10 slots in the arms how is it able to fit an Arrow IV the first place? Does it have more than 10 in the original game? Looking into it it only has 8 per arm in the Battletech PC game.
Maybe PGI is willing to change slots around??

[FupDup]

V A P O R F L O W, on 06 April 2019 - 06:09 PM, said:

Ah ok I hear you. Makes sense that they wouldn't want to mess with something like that.

This does get me thinking though. I don't have too much experience with the OG battletech board game but if the Catapult only has 10 slots in the arms how is it able to fit an Arrow IV the first place? Does it have more than 10 in the original game? Looking into it it only has 8 per arm in the Battletech PC game.
Maybe PGI is willing to change slots around??

The way TT does it is by splitting the critical slots between multiple body locations. MWO probably won't ever get that feature either.

[uwuziel]

FupDup, on 06 April 2019 - 06:10 PM, said:

The way TT does it is by splitting the critical slots between multiple body locations. MWO probably won't ever get that feature either.

Aahh okok, I didn't know that. That totally sucks 3:
The next closest Idea I can come up with now is having the Arrow take up like. Extra slots in the ct if placed in a side torso or extra slots in the side torso if placed in the arm but that seems unnecessarily complicated

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 06 April 2019 - 04:47 PM, said:

TL;DR: PGI will never change the critslot requirements of any item ever.

they dont need to. they just need to make it a hardwired weapon system only available on the catapult C3 and Naga. we already know for a fact PGI can hardwire equipment because they do it on omnimechs.

making arrowIV a hardwired weapon system is the easiest way to get it into the game immediately. because it doesnt require adding critsplitting or changing the crit slot requirements.

and making it a hardwired weapon system also removes the balance issues with putting arrowIV on any mech. because only the catapult and naga would have arrow IV.

Edited by Khobai, 06 April 2019 - 08:19 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 April 2019 - 08:15 PM, said:

they dont need to. they just need to make it a hardwired weapon system only available on the catapult C3 and Naga.

making arrowIV a hardwired weapon system is the easiest way to get it into the game immediately. because it doesnt require adding critsplitting or changing the crit slot requirements.

Hardwired weapons are not coded any differently from their modular equivalents. The mechanics are global. In order to make it possible on one mech it would have to be possible on all mechs because all mechs share the same underlying systems.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 06 April 2019 - 08:18 PM, said:

Hardwired weapons are not coded any differently from their modular equivalents. The mechanics are global. In order to make it possible on one mech it would have to be possible on all mechs because all mechs share the same underlying systems.

thats simply not true. the hardwired flamer in the head of the puma for example.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 April 2019 - 08:19 PM, said:

thats simply not true. the hardwired flamer in the head of the puma for example.

And what exactly is different about the Puma's Flamer compared to a normal Flamer other than the mere fact of being hardwired?

(And it's not even hardwired anymore so...).

[Requiemking]

Khobai, on 06 April 2019 - 08:15 PM, said:

they dont need to. they just need to make it a hardwired weapon system only available on the catapult C3 and Naga. we already know for a fact PGI can hardwire equipment because they do it on omnimechs.

making arrowIV a hardwired weapon system is the easiest way to get it into the game immediately. because it doesnt require adding critsplitting or changing the crit slot requirements.

and making it a hardwired weapon system also removes the balance issues with putting arrowIV on any mech. because only the catapult and naga would have arrow IV.

Why would they need to hardwire Clan ARROW IV when it already fits in MWO's system? Granted, it's a weapon that eats an entire ST in terms of crits(basically meaning that the only things that are running one are Clan Battlemechs with a standard engine), but it fits and they wouldn't need to go through all the trouble of trying to untangle the spaghetti code just for the Naga.

[Khobai]

Requiemking, on 06 April 2019 - 08:27 PM, said:

Why would they need to hardwire Clan ARROW IV when it already fits in MWO's system? Granted, it's a weapon that eats an entire ST in terms of crits(basically meaning that the only things that are running one are Clan Battlemechs with a standard engine), but it fits and they wouldn't need to go through all the trouble of trying to untangle the spaghetti code just for the Naga.

because otherwise they would have to create an ARROWIV weapon mesh for every single mech in the game. That is super time consuming and the main reason we dont often get new weapons.

by limiting arrowIV to two specific mechs and making it a hardwired system it significantly reduces the amount of work required to add it to the game.

FupDup, on 06 April 2019 - 08:46 PM, said:

And what exactly is different about the Puma's Flamer compared to a normal Flamer other than the mere fact of being hardwired?

youve missed the point as usual. the only part of the puma's flamer that's relevant is the fact its entirely possible to hardwire equipment.

and since its entirely possible to hardwire ARROWIV you dont need to introduce critsplitting or change crit slots to add ARROWIV to the game. you can simply hardwire it onto the mechs that use it.

Edited by Khobai, 06 April 2019 - 08:57 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 April 2019 - 08:37 PM, said:

youve missed the point as usual. the only part the puma's flamer that's relevant is the fact its entirely possible to hardwire equipment.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the coding required to make a hardwired Arrow IV would, by definition, require the coding a weapon that could be technically mounted on any mech (even if you choose to restrict it like MASC or ECM). Hardwiring is a property set on the chassis level, not the equipment level.

Khobai, on 06 April 2019 - 08:37 PM, said:

it means its entirely possible to hardwire ARROWIV. you dont need to introduce critsplitting or change crit slots to do it.

Any item that takes more than 12 slots has to be either shrunken or split in order to fit the current mechlab limitations. Hardwiring doesn't change the mechlab mechanics and limits.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 06 April 2019 - 08:46 PM, said:

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the coding required to make a hardwired Arrow IV would, by definition, require the coding a weapon that could be technically mounted on any mech (even if you choose to restrict it like MASC or ECM). Hardwiring is a property set on the chassis level, not the equipment level.


Any item that takes more than 12 slots has to be either shrunken or split in order to fit the current mechlab limitations. Hardwiring doesn't change the mechlab mechanics and limits.

nope. youd just have an ARROWIV hardpoint.

just like mechs without ballistic hardpoints cant use ballistic weapons.

mechs without arrowIV hardpoints couldnt use ARROWIV.

its really not that difficult to add ARROWIV to the game. PGI would just need to do some out of the box thinking.

And a hardwired arrowIV would be comprised of at least two pieces of equipment. Not just one piece of equipment. One in the arm and one in the torso.

Edited by Khobai, 06 April 2019 - 08:53 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 April 2019 - 08:49 PM, said:

nope. youd just have an ARROWIV hardpoint.

just like mechs without ballistic hardpoints cant use ballistic weapons.

mechs without arrowIV hardpoints couldnt use ARROWIV.

Again, limiting individual mechs from not using the equipment doesn't handwave the coding requirements. An Autocannon mounted on a Commando would function completely normally as it would on any other mech. The reason the Commando can't equip an AC is because of a chassis restriction, not a limitation of the weapon itself. All you'd have to do is a simple XML edit and boom we'd have AC Commandos with no issue other than having to use laser/missile geometry for ballistic weapons.

Edited by FupDup, 06 April 2019 - 08:53 PM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 06 April 2019 - 08:52 PM, said:

Again, limiting individual mechs from not using the equipment doesn't handwave the coding requirements. An Autocannon mounted on a Commando would function completely normally as it would on any other mech. The reason the Commando can't equip an AC is because of a chassis restriction, not a limitation of the weapon itself. All you'd have to do is a simple XML edit and boom we'd have AC Commandos with no issue other than having to use laser/missile geometry for ballistic weapons.

huh?

it would still be a chassis restriction.

only chassis with arrowIV hardpoints could use arrowIV.

and to start with, the only two chassis with arrowIV hardpoints would be the catapult3 and Naga. and the arrowIV would be hardwired on the catapult at least as a work around for not having crit splitting.

youd simply break the ARROWIV up into two hardwired pieces of equipment. one in the arm and one in the torso. the part in the torso would just be a placeholder to make the overall ARROWIV take up the right amount of crits/tonnage. the actual weapon would be in the arm.

its really not that complicated. and it would allow PGI to add ARROWIV to the game immediately without having to add any special coding to the game.

Edited by Khobai, 06 April 2019 - 08:59 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 April 2019 - 08:49 PM, said:

And a hardwired arrowIV would be comprised of at least two pieces of equipment. Not just one piece of equipment. One in the arm and one in the torso.

Underlined and bolded is the key that I've been trying to get at. You're now acknowledging that you'd have to do some weird fudging and tomfoolery because the current mechlab cannot accommodate an actual legit Arrow IV. You're effectively going with the size reduction approach.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 06 April 2019 - 08:59 PM, said:

Underlined and bolded is the key that I've been trying to get at. You're now acknowledging that you'd have to do some weird fudging and tomfoolery because the current mechlab cannot accommodate an actual legit Arrow IV. You're effectively going with the size reduction approach.

its not a size reduction approach though. because its still taking up the same amount of crits and tonnage it should take up. the only tom foolery would come from the torso part not suffering critical hits... which honestly doesnt matter anyway given how stupidly easy it is to blow up a side torso anyway.

and yes if you want to actually see ARROWIV in this game then some compromises have to be made. true facts. welcome to the real world.

if the options are ARROWIV not being added because everyone is closed-minded like FupDup or actually having ARROWIV in the game even if it makes some compromises and isnt 100% like tabletop... id rather go with the latter. Having it in the game in a limited capacity is better than not having it in the game at all.

Edited by Khobai, 06 April 2019 - 09:04 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 06 April 2019 - 09:00 PM, said:

its not a size reduction approach though. because its still taking up the same amount of crits and tonnage it should take up.

The main gun would have to shrunken to 10 slots to fit the arms. The side torso filler items would be completely separate and unconnected to the main gun item.