19 replies to this topic

[GuardDogg]

Long Read (sorry)

When Battletech came out in the early 80s, I was fascinated by it. While others were into D and D, or other. I was into the huge military walking machines. The board game "BattleTech". That image of a Warhammer with that spotlight still gets me to this day. I still have that game today, with the miniatures put away. The Madcat/Timberwolf wasn't easy to get at the time. I always had that thought. What would it be like to sit in a cockpit of a Madcat, or Warhammer, Atlas, or a light mech (just any from Battletech). As you pounding the streets with your walking military machine. Looking down on people, and they are looking up at you. As so on. Well, I know I will never get to pilot one in real life, even see one ever, or one ever be built. Long ways to go. But now on the computer we are able to come sorta close to piloting one. Mech2 was my first. Then Mech3, and then Mechwarrior 4. Started to meet other pilots. I was even in a team called "NukeSylo-Thirteen" known as [NS13]VisciousDog. Was not a spellling mistake. Just couldn't use the name ViciousDog, because the server wouldn't allow it. I became a trainer for piloting skills, and combat maneuvers on the weekends. And they became very useful. Then MWO came along many, many years later. The wait for MW5 with that teaser video, then MWO. I was happy. Others in NukeSylo-Thirteen moved on. The creator of NS13 is no where to be found. But I still have contact with some. Now, I became a beta player. I was so excited when my name was chosen. But later everyone was chosen. I was able to use my MW4 skills, and I was doing okay. Then as the years went on. My skills began to deteriorate. Lots of things were changing. The amount of LRMs. That today, the rounds are faster than ever. Both sides run to center, Nascar and boom. One side is down in minutes. The board game to this. You might get a round that will last for the full 15 minutes. But your are either watching or you are the last guy trying to survive. I am one of those guys who gets shot down a lot "The first guy" down. Either by a light coming from behind when I am piloting an Assault mech , or walk into a hive. When I do go down. I have to wait for my mech, and for round to end. Sometimes I am lucky to survive. I watch other pilots. Some do try bunny hoping, pop shooting and some are successful (weirdly). And these movements. Hiding around corner (rock, hill, building), snipe, backup, forward, snipe, backup, repeat. Then run, do the same else where. And it is legit. It is the way MWO is designed for pilots to do. Can be done. But, why didn't I think of doing this on the board game? If a Madcat (or other mechs) was around for real, would it be able to do this? MW2, 3, 4. these maneuvers never been done. In all of this, now witnessing this game play/type from a lot of pilots. So, no matter how well trained a mech combat pilot you are, your fighting skills mean nothing. Wondering if this "MWO" is a FPS, or the feel of a Simulator gone. Hope MW5 changes to realism. The closest, or the best we can get to piloting a walking military machine.

Edited by GuardDogg, 08 April 2019 - 07:36 AM.

[w4ldO]

if you want anyone to read your post, please format.

[Wil McCullough]

Survivabilty in mwo is actually extremely high compared to classic bt. If you remember, one turn on tabletop translates to 10 seconds in real life (generally speaking, time frames are different in solaris etc). You might feel like matches are really fast in mwo, but that's because you don't have the luxury "rubber time" of table top. Matches in mwo take like ~4-5 min. Combat on tt take 4-5 turns, which is less than a minute.

Bt lore fluff likes to weave this story that mechs are near invulnerable, walking behemoths that control the battlefield. In practice, they fall like flies. The damage in table top was ridiculous, especially with through-armor crits, knock downs and pilot incapacitation. The reason why so many people believe this "invulnerable, unstoppable" idea is also partly because of the single player mechwarrior experience where a single protagonist and a small lance or two can hold off or destroy an entire army by themselves. The thing is, the ai in these games were designed to allow the player and his team to do just that. Enemy mechs missed a lot on purpose or walk in one by one to get focus fired down.

[Karl Streiger]

Wil McCullough, on 07 April 2019 - 11:13 PM, said:

Survivabilty in mwo is actually extremely high compared to classic bt. If you remember, one turn on tabletop translates to 10 seconds in real life (generally speaking, time frames are different in solaris etc). You might feel like matches are really fast in mwo, but that's because you don't have the luxury "rubber time" of table top. Matches in mwo take like ~4-5 min. Combat on tt take 4-5 turns, which is less than a minute.

Bt lore fluff likes to weave this story that mechs are near invulnerable, walking behemoths that control the battlefield. In practice, they fall like flies. The damage in table top was ridiculous, especially with through-armor crits, knock downs and pilot incapacitation. The reason why so many people believe this "invulnerable, unstoppable" idea is also partly because of the single player mechwarrior experience where a single protagonist and a small lance or two can hold off or destroy an entire army by themselves. The thing is, the ai in these games were designed to allow the player and his team to do just that. Enemy mechs missed a lot on purpose or walk in one by one to get focus fired down.

True to some extend - MW3 would be a worser MultiPlayer game compared to MWO.
However people always throw the BT rounds are much faster then MWO combat - this is nonsense and clearly the mistake the developers of MWO did trip over. What does a round of BT mean? Simple its the number of possible Alpha Strikes. A 75t Orion that crumbles after 5 rounds (50seconds) taking fire all the time, occasionally even from 5 Mechs. Think of yourself how long would same Orion survive in MWO? 10seconds less?


However MW4 as low as it is for the BT Grognards got a couple of things right - when you created your own "multiplayer" skirmishes (I did as advanced training) you could place some bots into the other Mechs that hit were they are shooting.
For example the bot "Paingod" was autoaiming your CT shots only missed when you rolled the damage - and still your Mech was able to hold much longer,
MWLL had also a size based armor distribution.... I remember that i strafed the rear of a MWLL Bood Asp for several seconds with my Rotary ACs in the Bushwacker A. And you know what happened? Nothing that guy turned while shrugging of the damage and blew my mech into pieces....

TLDR what did MWLL and MW4 what MWO did not?

• a better translation of TT damage values (speak DPS and Alphastrike potential)
  
• better translation of TT armor values into an FPS (area based armor)

[FRAGTAST1C]

I had never played any Mechwarrior game until MWO. Yes, I am serious. But I have played Heavy Gear 1 and 2 (I don't know if you guys remember those classics).

Personally, for a multiplayer game, MWO has done a very good job in making the player feel like they're inside the cockpit of the battlemechs, which is good enough for me. If MW 5 improves upon this even slightly (despite the fact that the Mechlab is very limited), then I'd call it a happy pre-order, even if PGI hadn't offered so many goodies, albeit strangely to a game that we didn't even have to pay anything

Edited by FRAGTAST1C, 07 April 2019 - 11:43 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

I found tt mechs crumbled in 1-2 turns when focus fired by pilots with good gunnery. 5 turns is kinda long.

I find most grognards don't make the mental connection that if they can 2-shot shrin odessa's direwolf through the ct in mw4, their direwolf can get 2-shot too.

[Vellron2005]

"Simulator or FPS"

Well this is a simple question to answer..

Can you get into the cockpit of something? - SIMULATOR.

All previous MechWarrior games, and even MW5, are simulators.. just like X-Wing, Tie Fighter, and Privateer are simulators.

The difference between simulator and FPS is blurred as of late, but there is one still clear - shooters are fast paced, and usually don't involve a pilot that pilots something.

Simulators have a pilot that pilots something.

Simple no?

MWO is a simulator.. just like every other non-strategic MW game ever..

[Anjian]

Lately I have discovered the term Slow Shooter. Previously I also found terms like Tactical Shooter and Vehicular Shooter.

Personally I like the term Robo-Shooter.

[Nesutizale]

A simulator is something based around real physics. The term simulator is still used for everything that isn't the fast type of FPS shooter so yah MWO is in a weird spot that makes it not a fast pasted FPS like Battlefield or Modern Warfare but its still to much made up stuff to be considered a simulator.

Maybe we can say its a simple simulation of what mechcombat might be like?
Also I think that MWO is today the best multiplayer Mechgame we have, even with all its flaws I enjoy stomping around. I have played other MP Onlinegames like Warships, Warframe, Battlefield and none of these had the right mix of gamespeed and time/money you invest.

Warships was to slow, Warframe to fast (also I love the artwork and guns and mods), Battlefield to uncoordinated....yah Pugs in MWO are kinda bad but at the tier I play in MWO you see more coordination then in most Battlefield matches I have been in.

So in conclusion, MWO is a light sim or a slow shooter I would say...something in between this.

[Athom83]

Karl Streiger, on 07 April 2019 - 11:31 PM, said:

TLDR what did MWLL and MW4 what MWO did not?

• a better translation of TT damage values (speak DPS and Alphastrike potential)
  
• better translation of TT armor values into an FPS (area based armor)

Um... you got it a bit backwards there. MWLL and MW4 both made arbitrary numbers for both armor values and weapon damage, heat, 'DPS', range, etc. MWO only really takes liberty in the cooldown aspect (with the slight caveat of playing around with damage for clan lasers) with basically everything else being mostly taken right from TT values.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Anjian, on 08 April 2019 - 02:11 AM, said:

Lately I have discovered the term Slow Shooter. Previously I also found terms like Tactical Shooter and Vehicular Shooter.

Personally I like the term Robo-Shooter.

in that context I'd call it either Robo-Hider or Robo-Nascar, depending on the pilot and mech ofc

[Karl Streiger]

Athom83, on 08 April 2019 - 03:26 AM, said:

Um... you got it a bit backwards there. MWLL and MW4 both made arbitrary numbers for both armor values and weapon damage, heat, 'DPS', range, etc. MWO only really takes liberty in the cooldown aspect (with the slight caveat of playing around with damage for clan lasers) with basically everything else being mostly taken right from TT values.

no not backwards - yes MWLL and MW4 have different numbers for the very reason that its a different game mechanic.
You don't roll where your shot hit - you do actively aim - and the bigger a target the simpler the aim is - ergo instead of numbers that are based on a 2d6 hit location distribution you have numbers that seem to be based on the size.

the MW4 weapons for example are very good FPS copys of the TT game.

Or to take it more obvious - MWOs armor and damage values can only work when you would hit "R" to mark a target trigger the weapons you want to shoot and let a dice-simulator get the results if you hit and when you hit where your hit deals damage. If this is not the case then you need arbitrary numbers (on the first glance - look closer and you see that they are well done) to convert a rule based 2d6 system into a FPS shooter.
Same for HBS they don't use a 2d6 system in their game anymore (can't play the game although I've played it in CB, its seems to be a 1d100 system (or to have "real" probability numbers)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 08 April 2019 - 03:49 AM.

[dwwolf]

Karl Streiger, on 07 April 2019 - 11:31 PM, said:

True to some extend - MW3 would be a worser MultiPlayer game compared to MWO.
However people always throw the BT rounds are much faster then MWO combat - this is nonsense and clearly the mistake the developers of MWO did trip over. What does a round of BT mean? Simple its the number of possible Alpha Strikes. A 75t Orion that crumbles after 5 rounds (50seconds) taking fire all the time, occasionally even from 5 Mechs. Think of yourself how long would same Orion survive in MWO? 10seconds less?


However MW4 as low as it is for the BT Grognards got a couple of things right - when you created your own "multiplayer" skirmishes (I did as advanced training) you could place some bots into the other Mechs that hit were they are shooting.
For example the bot "Paingod" was autoaiming your CT shots only missed when you rolled the damage - and still your Mech was able to hold much longer,
MWLL had also a size based armor distribution.... I remember that i strafed the rear of a MWLL Bood Asp for several seconds with my Rotary ACs in the Bushwacker A. And you know what happened? Nothing that guy turned while shrugging of the damage and blew my mech into pieces....

TLDR what did MWLL and MW4 what MWO did not?

• a better translation of TT damage values (speak DPS and Alphastrike potential)
  
• better translation of TT armor values into an FPS (area based armor)

MWO just increased fire power 2.5 to 3x. ( frequency )
Meanwhile armor is 2x as effective per ton.
Both of those are nominal changes compared to base BT numbers.

But what people forget is that due to the Hit location table location armor effectively has 6x to 36x its nominal value. ( CT being hit 1/6 of the time and heads 1/36 of the time ).

In effect weapons are massively more effective than armor in MWO.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

dwwolf, on 08 April 2019 - 04:50 AM, said:

MWO just increased fire power 2.5 to 3x. ( frequency )
Meanwhile armor is 2x as effective per ton.
Both of those are nominal changes compared to base BT numbers.

But what people forget is that due to the Hit location table location armor effectively has 6x to 36x its nominal value. ( CT being hit 1/6 of the time and heads 1/36 of the time ).

In effect weapons are massively more effective than armor in MWO.

true. I think a 'better' heat-penalty-system could at least partially make up for that, but...
folks want to shoot stuff.
they don't want sth like a 'shake' or blur because of heat, they don't wanna move slower, they want to shoot.
so.. less sim, more shooter. yay.

[Mister Maf]

Vellron2005, on 08 April 2019 - 01:14 AM, said:

"Simulator or FPS"

Well this is a simple question to answer..

Can you get into the cockpit of something? - SIMULATOR.

All previous MechWarrior games, and even MW5, are simulators.. just like X-Wing, Tie Fighter, and Privateer are simulators.

The difference between simulator and FPS is blurred as of late, but there is one still clear - shooters are fast paced, and usually don't involve a pilot that pilots something.

Simulators have a pilot that pilots something.

Simple no?

MWO is a simulator.. just like every other non-strategic MW game ever..

Would you have considered HAWKEN a simulator or an FPS?

Personally I would say HAWKEN is an FPS while MWO is a mix of both. The hallmark of a true simulator is the simulation of reality, as Nesutizale said. Battletech physics from the get-go in no way remotely even emulate reality, so MWO couldn't ever simulate it. What it does have in common with real simulators, as you said, is the operation of a machine, but the focus of the game is the FPS action that takes significant liberties with reality and greatly simplifies the experience of operating said complex machine in the name of being fun and accessible.

Edited by Mister Maf, 08 April 2019 - 05:09 AM.

[Athom83]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 08 April 2019 - 04:59 AM, said:

true. I think a 'better' heat-penalty-system could at least partially make up for that, but...
folks want to shoot stuff.
they don't want sth like a 'shake' or blur because of heat, they don't wanna move slower, they want to shoot.
so.. less sim, more shooter. yay.

Basically. My personal view of the game balance is that most weapons need a cooldown nerf, all/most ballistics need a slight spread/inaccuracy (also PPCs, basically any projectile), and that heat should be effecting your speed/vision/etc so there's actually be drawbacks to poking out to alpha fire to 90% heat then retreating to cover untill cool enough to do it again (and a point to those equipment that should/could be added that remove heat drawbacks / give benefits when at high heat). And that's not really including mechanical reworks or certain weapons.

[Karl Streiger]

A minor tweak could have made GH unnecessary. Simple math ergo simple to implement but hey we've got Ghost Heat.
Weapon heat x3 dissipation x4.

dwwolf, on 08 April 2019 - 04:50 AM, said:

MWO just increased fire power 2.5 to 3x. ( frequency )
Meanwhile armor is 2x as effective per ton.
Both of those are nominal changes compared to base BT numbers.

But what people forget is that due to the Hit location table location armor effectively has 6x to 36x its nominal value. ( CT being hit 1/6 of the time and heads 1/36 of the time ).

In effect weapons are massively more effective than armor in MWO.

While you are correct its not that simple - you can not simple multiply the armor value by the probability of 2d6 - this won't work.

2d6 is it TT, but in MWO the probability to hit something is a function of mobility, size, and model. You can not say BlackJack arm is 10 points x 4 * 0.2 - you need to actually test it (the Developer) how would the 3d model behave when someones shoot at it (average (not expert) damage rolling, and average (not expert) shooting.

Add some tweaks to add risk-reward to the game (tiny arms of the BlackJack should become a promising target - currently nobody wastes any shots by shooting at the arms and goes instead for the ST)

[GuardDogg]

Since some (even myself) have problems of the to long to read. Will make it short here.

Some people have turned their basements into Battletech simulators (With photos). But the rounds are so fast now (your done in minutes (or seconds)), that it does feel like it has FPS motives with children's view , can MWO really be that simulator?

Edited by GuardDogg, 08 April 2019 - 06:23 AM.

[HammerMaster]

Simulator?
Hahahaha! No. Only in the fact that you "see" yourself in the command couch.
With run in, crash together, repeat matches. Zero economy. Little real investment in your personal mech (seriously one. maybe two mechs that take up your time. NOT pokemech wanna buy a mech pack?) It's all fps.

True ability to have a Sim sailed long ago.

Edited by HammerMaster, 08 April 2019 - 07:09 AM.

[Maugged]

MWO is a tactical mech based shooter set in the rich BattleTech Universe according to PGI. It's a shooter based on the battletech theme, Not a proper battletech game. It's been like that since the beginning. They never claimed it was a battletech simulator. You're having wrong expectations which is a problem on your end there OP.