9 replies to this topic

[Bersigil]

Now... that might be shameful for someone playing since 9/17... but: are some of the Mechs in MWO just totally different than the ... "real" version?
f.e. the WHM-6D has one additional energy-hardpoint in the center and 2 per arm.... the WHM-6R can mount UACs or Gauss in the STs....
Would this be doable in battletech? (At least with some highly qualified Techs...?)

[Karl Streiger]

Bersigil, on 05 April 2019 - 07:59 AM, said:

Now... that might be shameful for someone playing since 9/17... but: are some of the Mechs in MWO just totally different than the ... "real" version?
f.e. the WHM-6D has one additional energy-hardpoint in the center and 2 per arm.... the WHM-6R can mount UACs or Gauss in the STs....
Would this be doable in battletech? (At least with some highly qualified Techs...?)

As a field refit? No
Using a Mech Bay to be found on most DropShips or core planets with adequate manufacturing centers? Yes

However some stuff like heatsink, engine and structure swapping alowing the 6R to mount those guns - only in a Mech Factory (virtually creating a complete new Mech.

As you see the real question is the quality of our MechFactory because obvious every one of us is a duke with a private MechFactory at his hand.

More serious the issue is not Hardpoint size but an unrestricted Mechlab - its ironical that the OmniMechs behave more like BM should (think of your self a 6R as Omni - might only free 23tons for weapons with 18 fixed single heat sinks. This would allow you to add two UAC5s or a single Gauss but thats it.

So HPs are only for the look and feel. (2 PPCs in location of two small laser looks bad)

[Koniving]

Bersigil, on 05 April 2019 - 07:59 AM, said:

Now... that might be shameful for someone playing since 9/17... but: are some of the Mechs in MWO just totally different than the ... "real" version?
f.e. the WHM-6D has one additional energy-hardpoint in the center and 2 per arm.... the WHM-6R can mount UACs or Gauss in the STs....
Would this be doable in battletech? (At least with some highly qualified Techs...?)

Yay! A post that belongs in here!

The short answer is anything is possible in Battletech.
For example I have a plan later to show building this absolutely stupid thing...

Just don't expect this 16.7 meter tall, 9.5 ton monstrosity to actually be 9.5 tons in BT; to pull it off I need to be about 75 tons.

But, since you mentioned techs you're not thinking of the "make your mech" rules but the "customization rules" which the closest thing we've seen recently is in HBS Battletech but with hardpoints.

The RPG version has a very seldom heard softpoint system which basically starts to get into how swapping similar things gets a soft bonus to the rolls to make them easier/take less time. Sarna.net actually points these out and I'm not sure if it even realizes it.

For example:
http://www.sarna.net...m_Range_Missile
"

• MRM-10

Can be used as a substitute for the SRM-6

• MRM-20

Can be used as a substitute for the LRM-10

• MRM-30

Can be used as a substitute for the LRM-15

• MRM-40

Can be used as a substitute for the LRM-20"



These can be very quickly swapped. Not as easily as omni-pods (which can be done in minutes to a couple of hours), but fairly close. An exceptional crew could get it done in 4 hours with Scotty the Engineer (name I give to a god-modded tech for seeing how fast something could be pulled off if someone twice as good as a master-tech does it, due to an 8 bonus on top of already being at the highest level of skill for technician, but think of that as twice as fast as a wizard class chief technician with a full astech crew). (Note this quick swap is only with the addition of that MWRPG 2nd edition ruleset in place, otherwise its just a normal change).

You can still technically do literally anything you want. For example if you want to turn the Scorpion

Into this

You can! (Catapillar tracks included!!) Make sure the arms are "ST turrets".
(Please note without the proper facilities -- this modification would be hit with about 7 negative design quirks even with a god-modded technician...and would fail every time with a veteran technician and a full astech crew).

Voila! Magic!

The issue is how deep are you going into the rules?
Because the more difficult the task, the more likely you'll have flaws or failures. For example changing a Jenners from one variant to another....4 years before that variant was even invented. I'll let the story tell itself, as it has failures that led to minor flaws and failures that led to a 35 ton paperweight that unfortunately cost more than an Atlas.

Spoiler

Koniving, on 18 September 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

This said. What you do in "Creating your mech" aka "Make your gundam rules" is NOT the same as "Customization" rules in a campaign. There's a drastic difference between the two.
In a full on campaign, just changing out a weapon could take several days.
Swap that heatsink to make room for another ammo bin? Welp, there went five days.
Change the armor type?

Upwards of over a month to three with a mercenary-sized dedicated facility, several technicians working OVERTIME (including two GOD MODE techs because otherwise the colossal failures with ELITE technicians are so dramatic that you have to throw away the mech into a junk pile!, a crapload of ASTechs (assistant technicians), and somewhere of twice the money it takes to just buy a mech variant that has ferro armor is gonna be spent on allowing for all this to happen.

I tried this three times and it required some GM god-moding to get the conditions to do so. To ensure everything was done by the book this was done in Megamek HQ (wanted to do it in MekWars as that is BT's online community warfare, but it would probably take me over a year to build up a unit far enough to even attempt this). Overtime was permitted and each technician (a total of four) was given 60 hours to work with the mech for each week. Each tech had a full compliment of AsTechs of average skill. The mech was moved to the proper facility to ensure that the conditions were perfect to make the change. Use of a Power Man cargo mech was authorized to assist in the repairs, with an elite pilot and modified to have an Easy to pilot quirk to prevent any issues from his participation (which there were no issues from him in all of these attempts). The budget allotted was 13 million cbills (more than 4 times the cost of a ferro-equipped Jenner from the factory) and after each attempt, the saved game was reloaded to recreate the same conditions. The result?

• Result 1: The mech was rendered useless due to a mistake that both broke some section of the center torso structure which caused the engine damage and when I attempted to correct that, the engine got fused permanently. In the end, the mech needed to be discarded as it could no longer function without being able to replace the engine, and since that was impossible, I tried to sell it. Because of the issues, it was also given the Bad Reputation design quirk which should just cut its value in half, but I couldn't even sell it as we could not find a buyer. The roll to meet for finding a buyer even with the god-modded technician was "impossible." It was discarded out back into a trash heap. So many millions down the drain. 9,573,872 million out of 13 million was spent on the process and that all went to the toilet to flush.
  
• Result 2: Marginal success! I was able to convert the Jenner JF7-D into a ferro-armor totting mech. Unfortunately, in doing so I wound up getting the design quirk Exposed Weapon Linkage on one of my lasers. Another laser ended up with Non-Functional. The other two were fine. The SRM launcher now had "Ammo feed problems" which could lead to jamming. It also somehow lost its cooling jacket, adding an additional 2 heat every time I fired the SRM. It took another 3 weeks to attempt to fix these issues, during which one of the god modded technicians quit...and took the mech with him. (The reasoning from the die roll was he felt he wasn't getting paid enough. I had about 4 million left at the time but no option was given for me to give him a raise. As such, I had somewhere around 9 million spent.)
  
• Result 3: Encouraged by the previous marginal success, I dedicated triple the amount of money this time, a total of 39,000,000 cbills just for this project to turn one JR7-D into a Ferro-armor Jenner. The extra money was dedicated to making sure the God Modded techs were paid a lot more so that I wouldn't have a repeat of the previous issue. I was met with a colossal flop. This time during the process, despite being god modded for incredible success... one of the technicians (Scotty from Star Trek) accidentally fused a leg actuator so it one, could not move, and two, could not be replaced. It was otherwise largely successful. But what good is a mech that can't walk?

Needless to say, even with the facilities, God modded technicians, etc... that common upgrade in 3051...ain't gonna happen realistically. So try picturing it in 3015, or 3049, without the facilities, with at best maybe an elite technician, and struggling to pay your bills instead of magically getting 39,000,000 cbills "from your uncle" just to complete a project to change a JR7-D into a JR7-K, a Ferro-fibrous mech worth only 3,306,375 cbills brand new.




It's just a waste of time in lore and customization rules.

(I repeated this experiment as House Kurita in 3045, and did it in the Jenner facility owned by Luthien Armor Works on the planet of Abiy Adi.

Here, they don't actually have the Jenner JR7-Ks until 3049, and I'm at it in 3045. I was able to produce one by modifying and redesigning the Jenner JR7-K. It cost me about 5 million cbills to make the changes and didn't require as high level technicians or nearly as much time (just 3 weeks). I was able to do it on the first try with only a minor issue (the design quirk "unbalanced/off balance"). Unfortunately maintaining was difficult. Within a week it went from Great/prestine (E) to average (C) after the first maintenance.

Note that Scotty in that story is just a wizard-class tech (possible but cheese-factory ******** even in 3150), not a double-wizard-class as I mentioned for the quick swap (which is completely impossible without blatantly cheating)... so everything in the story is completely possible but your average tech would have a lot more failures and be very unlikely to succeed at all. They did, however, have full access to proper facilities.

Which brings up the point that Karl brought up... As I was saying anything is possible with the right stuff...
Your hardiest tech probably still isn't gonna have access to a fully equipped facility. In HBS BT the Argo was literally a flying fortress with its own automated mech factory. Even then hefty modifications took weeks. (Which is about equal to a little faster than doing similar things in Battletech with access to something very similar).

Edited by Koniving, 05 April 2019 - 08:32 AM.

[Koniving]

Huh.. MW RPG 1st edition, just learned: Armor during the star league was so highly specialized between mechs that it caused no end of trouble for technicians. The exact shape or size of the armor plate necessary might not be available, requiring some jerry rigging that would ultimately weaken it.

Spoiler

Though thin and flexible, the armor is quite heavy, making
better-protected 'Mechs slower than their lighter, less armored
cousins. The inner layer of protection, usually composed of
boron nitride impregnated with diamond monofilament, is fitted
directly around the musculature In overlapping plates, each
built to specification for the given 'Mech type and body part.
This highly-specialized design has caused no end of trouble to
Techs and field repairmen during the Succession Wars. The
exact armor components they need in a given situation may
not be available in the proper size or shape, making It necessary
to reform the component, which can cause structural
weakening.

Page: 63

To pull any of it off in the field with any chance for success, you need some kits

Spoiler

TOOL KIT (1-2/C)
The tool kit contains a variety of hand tools including
hammers, wrenches, screwdrivers, and saws. This basic
equipment is essential for any 'Mech repair task, and weighs
15 kilograms.
CUTTING KIT (2-3/C)
This kit contains oxy-acetylene cutting torches and equipment
for handling hot metal. HiTech versions substitute laser
cutting torches. The kit weights between ten and 30 kilograms.
JOINING KIT (1-3/C)
This kit contains equipment used to join
metal, and weighs between 10 and 30
kilograms. Such equipment includes arc
welders, laser welders, and, in the the
Low Tech kits, riveters.
GYRO KIT (3/R)
This kit weighs 1 metric ton and contains the structural
equipment necessary to repair the massive 'Mech gyros and
their critical bearings.
ELEC KIT (3/C)
This kit contains electronic testing and
repair equipment to handle routine jobs only.
The kit weighs from 5 to 20 kilograms. The
repair and maintenance of computers, sensors,
neurohelmets, and similar equipment
requires more advanced equipment.
SENSOR KIT (3/R)
This equipment is required for the maintenance and repair of the delicate and complex 'Mech
sensor systems. The kit weighs about 50 kilograms.
FUSION KIT (3/R)
This equipment includes the shielding and remote control
apparatus required to service and repair fusion engines. It
weighs 1000 kilograms.

Ideally, you'll want a LoaderMech or HaulerMech in tow to help with performing the repairs and replacements in the field...note there's a high chance for failure for major things such as engine replacement...but it is doable.

For the changes you originally described, however... you need one of these at least.

Spoiler

REPAIR PLATFORM (3/C)
[NOTE: If equipped with radiation shielding, the availability
code is ffU".]
As a 'Mech unit travels from place to place, it will acquire
certain useful equipment, often scavenged from abandoned or
destroyed industrial sites. One of the most common nonmilitary
items is a repair platform. This device is generally
mounted on a wheeled vehicle with a hydraulically-powered
support that lifts a wide, contained compartment 10-20 meters
into the air.
The repair platform is equipped with devices such as
welders and grippers, which allow Techs to repair damaged
'Mechs, replace portions of their armor or anatomy, and so
forth, even before the extreme heat generated by the battle
has diffused. The compartment is also proof against most
harmful radiation, thus permitting a Tech to remove or replace a
malfunctioning fusion reactor.
All 'Mechs carry tool, cutting, joining, and elec kits. They
are usually located in torso storage compartments. Internal
damage to a 'Mech's torso will probably destroy some of the
repair equipment.
The sensor, fusion and gyro kits, and the repair platforms
are only located in secure locations such as DropShips,
headquarters units, and repair and maintenance depots.

Despite what it says here about fusion kits only being in the dropships,etc... there's a field repair list of how to do an in-the-field engine replacement. Problem is if it does succeed at all, the engine's automatically cut a hex in power so your top speed goes down no matter what. You still need to have the Fusion kit delivered to you by a loader/hauler mech (anything else isn't 'delicate' enough.)

(Image to text converter seems to like changing mech to mach.)
Page 32 for the kits/etc.

So to come full circle..
Yes, you can recreate any mech in MWO in BT.
But so you know what works in MWO does not work in BT, many MWO meta mechs are colossal failures in BT. Your average AC rig would be a walking time bomb that blows up in one or two hits (with through armor crits) not to mention they'd have enough ammo to fire non-stop for weeks instead of minutes.

Your average Laser Vomit build wouldn't be able to alpha strike much of anything even with all those heatsinks as either you'd be firing them in sequence across many seconds.

The laser vomit using Solaris 7's true alpha strike rule, pinpoint convergence doesn't exist; it'd be fired as each section firing straight.. So if you rolled the CT as the primary target, your CT weapons would hit their CT, your ST weapons would hit their ST, your arm weapons would hit the CT (note if you rolled an arm for example they'd all focus on the arm while the ST weapons might hit an ST and miss depending on which side of the arm it goes), and you'd have an additional 40 heat (out of a 120 threshold as the simplest way to breakdown 2.5 seconds is to times all heat by 4 and keep dissipation rate the same, or divide a lot of things by 4 including dissipation.. in which case it'd be an additional 10 heat out of 30 threshold).

MWO lets you alpha strike approximately twice as much firepower as Battletech would, without the penalty heat (unless violating MWO's ghost heat). But that's another topic.

Edited by Koniving, 05 April 2019 - 09:04 AM.

[Koniving]

Here we go.
With proper facilities, this took 5 weeks (with nothing delivered as I god-modded those, otherwise it might've been months).

Warhammer WHM-6R Bersigil Custom Base Tech Level: Standard (IS)

Spoiler

Level
Era
Experimental
2630-2639
Advanced
2640-3039
Standard
3040+
Extinct
2915-3035
(edit: era listings for what level the mech would be considered for the equipment I have on it; I have the year set to 3062 so this is fairly standard now.)
Tech Rating: E/D-F(F*)-D-D
Weight: 70 tons
BV: 1,221
Cost: 6,057,383 C-bills (if from a factory built this way; current 'value' is below)
Value: 4,930,545 C-bills (what I could hope to sell it for)
Source: TRO 3039 - Age of War
Movement: 4/6
Engine: 280 (std) (if I changed this, the cost would skyrocket to 12,721,383 C-bills)
Heat Sinks: 15 (single)
Gyro: Standard Gyro
Internal: 107
Armor: 160/217

Internals
Armor
Head
3
9
Center Torso
22
22
Center Torso (rear)
9
Right Torso
15
17
Right Torso (rear)
8
Left Torso
15
17
Left Torso (rear)
8
Right Arm
11
20
Left Arm
11
20
Right Leg
15
15
Left Leg
15
15

Weapons
Loc
Heat

Medium Laser
LT
3

Small Laser
LT
1

SRM 6
RT
4

Medium Laser
RT
3

Small Laser
RT
1

Ultra AC/5
RT
1

Ultra AC/5
LT
1

Ammo
Loc
Shots

SRM 6 Ammo
RT
15

Ultra AC/5 Ammo
CT
20

Stripped a bunch of equipment, slapped in two Ultra/5s and traded the MG bin for an Ultra/5 bin. Despite only 20 cassettes, I could fire this fairly continuously at standard rate (for both UAC/5s) 3.33 minutes and net approximately 100 damage
On Ultra firing mode if no jams or problems, for 1.67 minutes and net approximately 100 damage.
(I say approximately because depending on the kind of hit you do assuming everything hit, you could do as low as 70 and as high as 150...)

[Koniving]

No long-term technical issues given the year, but if I had done that in say 3015, there's a good chance it would have failed miserably.
I used a regular technician and a full astech crew. Had one critical injury (crushed foot), two minor injuries, and had to do 3 attempts to remove one of the MGs as two of the attempts failed. Got it out but broke it in the process so that's one I can't hope to sell. Also broke a heatsink during extraction.

[Bersigil]

ok... I'll just admit it: I had no (absolutely no!) idea of how complex this side of the universe could be. I mean... I do understand that the lore is rich... but... wow!

[Koniving]

Bersigil, on 05 April 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

ok... I'll just admit it: I had no (absolutely no!) idea of how complex this side of the universe could be. I mean... I do understand that the lore is rich... but... wow!

One thing to remember, is Battletech started during the "Real Robot genre" after the monster-of-the-week super robot genre started to fade, and was targeted at an already older audience in its early twenties, and has been carried into "Mech Dad" territory for a long, long time.

Myself in the 90s I never really knew it was anywhere this good. Though in comparison many of the real robot animes were crossing between real robot / super robot genres to strike some sort of middle ground (like that ridiculous gundam), so between it and Heavy Gear I thought of them like the most realistic I've seen which then paled a bit compared to Star Siege. Course, Mw2 dropped a lot of "Battletech" out, Mw3 tried to bring it back... and The Earthsiege series (later Starsiege) was actually a heavily modified original MW2 after FASA chose a different company while it was almost done. (As such many weapons are very, very similar). Now looking at the original company that made the first Mechwarrior PC game... it has a lot of Battletech in there that never got put back into the Mechwarrior series. Its a shame that it looked like this, but hey that's 1989 for ya.

Mechwarrior 1:

Spoiler

Beautifully...ugly game, but so damn impressive for the time, to think on the Nintendo super Mario 2 just came out a year before.

There's more tanks and vehicles than mechs, naval ships, warships, etc.. And something over 80,000 planets, with over 30,000 systems, many actually having some kind of story however brief it might be. A fun thing to do is to pull out Megamek HQ (think of it like an unofficial "Battletech" for the PC; one that even the Battletech books use SCREENSHOTS from in order to explain Battletech rules in newer books!) and literally go browse the systems to check them out.

This was taken from my thread "You have 5.5 tons" about my original (borrowed) security mech design.
It shows the entire Battletech map and zooms in to Nirasaki, the order is left, right, bottom left, bottom right.

Nirasaki is a fun read.
Each dot is a star system with multiple planets... (the Sol system is called "Terra" in Battletech, and includes all "9" planets... yes, Pluto is still considered a planet in BT)
Blue lines is the communication network (HPG)

Edited by Koniving, 05 April 2019 - 11:27 AM.

[Koniving]

Watching a documentary about MW5..

The AI tidbit is hilarious... But there's a tidbit closer to the beginning from Jordan Weisman (one of the creators of the Battletech franchise) which has its own aspect to the BT lore.

But if you're interested in getting a taste of Battletech, there's HBS BT as the easiest way to slip in with beautiful visuals, or with a learning curve there's Megamek. I'm still learning it, but already I'm causing traffic accidents as I cross busy streets to chase bank robbers in security mechs I designed to fit into the universe.

[SilentScreamer]

Bersigil, on 05 April 2019 - 07:59 AM, said:

Now... that might be shameful for someone playing since 9/17... but: are some of the Mechs in MWO just totally different than the ... "real" version?
f.e. the WHM-6D has one additional energy-hardpoint in the center and 2 per arm.... the WHM-6R can mount UACs or Gauss in the STs....
Would this be doable in battletech? (At least with some highly qualified Techs...?)

PGI has implemented Battletech's mech loadouts faithfully in 99% of cases. Exception is moving leg-slot weapons to side torsos. Since there is no such thing as hardpoints in Battletech, you can, in-theory, stick a weapon wherever there is crit space.

As others have said qualified techs and and a well-equiped facility to do the work. No detakls are given in the basic rules, but once you get into advanced rules you get some numbers for cost, repair time etc.

As far as a "custom" mech, onlya few occassions would you find one:
1) varients specific to a House or unit which are refits rather than productions, but available in mass quantity.
2) a former mass-produced mech customized by a mechwarrior over years.
3) prototype or experimental mechs not meant for mass production. Solaris 7 teams.

Only case 1 is a viable battlefield unit. Having a support team, facilitys and spare parts for cases #2 and #3 is not suitable to the logistical demands of war. Also timeline matters, during the Star League's height right before the collapse only the elite "Royal" units were fielding mechs with all the high-tech. Regular Starleague forces and Sucessor States still used mechs with standard engines, structure, heatsinks etc. (or just one improvement) even though better technology was available at the time.

Exceptions:
- high-priced mercenary like the Bountyhunter can get away with #2 because of higher contract price and downtime between contracts to ship the mech to a proper repair facility.
- heir to Sucessor State would be able to maintain a gifted custom Direwolf
- mercenary units with their own planets/facilities: Wolf's Dragoons and Kell's Hounds

So in your example of a gauss Warhammer refit, it would likely be a unique mech with a specific pilot.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 11 April 2019 - 06:53 AM.