55 replies to this topic

[Obiwayne]

Some of you might know the tool which was advertised here in the forums. Its called Fire control and lets you set fire rates for multiple weapons, which is especially useful on mechs with a lot of autocannons. With the right settings, you have sustained fire with 300+rpm depending on how many ACs you have.

Long story short I never bothered with it but recently started using it on ac2 builds. And it feels like cheating. Why? Because a normal human being would never be able to use multiple ac/2s in chainfire with 300+ clicks per minute.

Afaik PGI never commented on this and the thread with the dl link is still up.

So my problem is that I feel like a cheater when using fire control (averaging 700damage per match with only 4ac/2s). On the other hand, that little tool is extremly useful and makes such builds fun to play.

But there is an easy solution. PGI could change how Targeting computers work. If they get rid of all the different types, they could give us just a few that are actually good for smth.

- a targeting/fire control computer for ACs that does the math for sustained fire
- a staggered fire computer for lrm boats
- the one we have with enhanced zoom/crit chance for lasers and ppcs

- MKII versions could have quirks like extended sensor range/faster target info/more ppc-ac-missile-velocity/extended effective range for lasers at the cost of tonnage and slots

That would not only solve the problem with some people using fire control while others dont. It would also give us some extra toys in the mechlab.

Thoughts?

Edited by Obiwayne, 21 April 2019 - 11:59 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

Chain firing is basically never superior to alpha damage.

It feels fun to machine gun fire ACs but the pinpoint is always better

Edited by thievingmagpi, 21 April 2019 - 12:00 PM.

[Vxheous]

Obiwayne, on 21 April 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

Some of you might know the tool which was advertised here in the forums. Its called Fire control and lets you set fire rates for multiple weapons, which is especially useful on mechs with a lot of autocannons. With the right settings, you have sustained fire with 300+rpm depending on how many ACs you have.

Long story short I never bothered with it but recently started using it on ac2 builds. And it feels like cheating. Why? Because a normal human being would never be able to use multiple ac/2s in chainfire with 300+ clicks per minute.

Afaik PGI never commented on this and the thread with the dl link is still up.

So my problem is that I feel like a cheater when using fire control (averaging 700damage per match with only 4ac/2s). On the other hand, that little tool is extremly useful and makes such builds fun to play.

But there is an easy solution. PGI could change how Targeting computers work. If they get rid of all the different types, they could give us just a few that are actually good for smth.

- a targeting/fire control computer for ACs that does the math for sustained fire
- a staggered fire computer for lrm boats
- the one we have with enhanced zoom/crit chance for lasers and ppcs

- MKII versions could have quirks like extended sensor range/faster target info/more ppc-ac-missile-velocity/extended effective range for lasers at the cost of tonnage and slots

That would not only solve the problem with some people using fire control while others dont. It would also give us some extra toys in the mechlab.

So what do you think?

Chainfiring ACs (even with a macro) is still inferior to alpha'ing them in terms of killing power. Sure, it sounds cool to have all that dakka going continuously, but the damage is spread so much that it's pretty bad, unless the person you're shooting at is completely braindead and just lets you spam chainfire in their face while standing still.

[Obiwayne]

Vxheous, on 21 April 2019 - 12:02 PM, said:

the person you're shooting at is completely braindead and just lets you spam chainfire in their face while standing still.

Thats exactly my point. Nobody is stupid enough to facetime a 6ac/2 build that is spitting ~540 shells per minute at you. The suppression potential is obscene. It basically lets you push though the firing line of a whole lance all by yourself.

[GuardDogg]

Obiwayne, on 21 April 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

Some of you might know the tool which was advertised here in the forums. Its called Fire control and lets you set fire rates for multiple weapons, which is especially useful on mechs with a lot of autocannons. With the right settings, you have sustained fire with 300+rpm depending on how many ACs you have.

Long story short I never bothered with it but recently started using it on ac2 builds. And it feels like cheating. Why? Because a normal human being would never be able to use multiple ac/2s in chainfire with 300+ clicks per minute.

Afaik PGI never commented on this and the thread with the dl link is still up.

So my problem is that I feel like a cheater when using fire control (averaging 700damage per match with only 4ac/2s). On the other hand, that little tool is extremly useful and makes such builds fun to play.

But there is an easy solution. PGI could change how Targeting computers work. If they get rid of all the different types, they could give us just a few that are actually good for smth.

- a targeting/fire control computer for ACs that does the math for sustained fire
- a staggered fire computer for lrm boats
- the one we have with enhanced zoom/crit chance for lasers and ppcs

- MKII versions could have quirks like extended sensor range/faster target info/more ppc-ac-missile-velocity/extended effective range for lasers at the cost of tonnage and slots

That would not only solve the problem with some people using fire control while others dont. It would also give us some extra toys in the mechlab.

Thoughts?

I use it on my IS builds. Think PGI took it away from Clan mechs. But dunno how it works together with skill tree. If they can work together or not. We never see the numbers.

[Vxheous]

Obiwayne, on 21 April 2019 - 12:08 PM, said:

Thats exactly my point. Nobody is stupid enough to facetime a 6ac/2 build that is spitting ~540 shells per minute at you. The suppression potential is obscene. It basically lets you push though the firing line of a whole lance all by yourself.

Doesn't work that way, better players will just dump their alpha into your CT, shield/get behind cover, and then come back and dump another alpha into your CT. Now you're CT cored, you've spread your damage all over your opponent's mech, they do it a third time, and you're dead. Chainfiring AC's is and always has been a noob trap.

Edited by Vxheous, 21 April 2019 - 12:21 PM.

[Koniving]

Obiwayne, on 21 April 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

Some of you might know the tool which was advertised here in the forums. Its called Fire control and lets you set fire rates for multiple weapons, which is especially useful on mechs with a lot of autocannons. With the right settings, you have sustained fire with 300+rpm depending on how many ACs you have.

Long story short I never bothered with it but recently started using it on ac2 builds. And it feels like cheating. Why? Because a normal human being would never be able to use multiple ac/2s in chainfire with 300+ clicks per minute.

Afaik PGI never commented on this and the thread with the dl link is still up.

So my problem is that I feel like a cheater when using fire control (averaging 700damage per match with only 4ac/2s). On the other hand, that little tool is extremly useful and makes such builds fun to play.

But there is an easy solution. PGI could change how Targeting computers work. If they get rid of all the different types, they could give us just a few that are actually good for smth.

- a targeting/fire control computer for ACs that does the math for sustained fire
- a staggered fire computer for lrm boats
- the one we have with enhanced zoom/crit chance for lasers and ppcs

- MKII versions could have quirks like extended sensor range/faster target info/more ppc-ac-missile-velocity/extended effective range for lasers at the cost of tonnage and slots

That would not only solve the problem with some people using fire control while others dont. It would also give us some extra toys in the mechlab.

Thoughts?

300 clicks per minute = 5 clicks per second.
It is humanly possible to do far more than that.

Furthermore, you're firing 5 cannons per second with a weapon system that has a native firing rate of 1 shot per 0.72 seconds..
So in that first second you have fired 5 shots.
Where if you simply held the button, you can fire 5 shots in 0.28 seconds less time and hit the exact some body part.

Yet further still... you have not only robbed yourself of concentrated alpha damage AND reduced your DPS from 13.9 to 10.

Your actual damage of 10 units per hit starting immediately and repeating every 0.72 seconds turns into 2 damage every 0.2 seconds in any number of potential areas and misses, tallying to 10 accumulated in 1 second., which actually puts you far behind from the very get-go.

Basically you're hurting yourself, and higher damage numbers while potentially lower kills can probably supplement that fact.

The only time it is advantageous, is in a case like with RACs and MGs, the weapons lack a "cooldown time", and as such can be tricked to fire as quickly as you click, in which case if you do something like 1,000 clicks per second can result in some really heineous stuff.. but with those oversights fixed, macro use basically hurts you there too.

Yes, it makes it fun. Yes you can rig up a beat with your autocannons and make them beatbox for ya. Yes, it helps with managing heat as it is slowing down your rate of fire and thus the rate in which you generate heat...

But in the end... it's costing you... and when it costs you and anyone can do it, it isn't cheating... In the eyes of some of those high-end Jarl's List 'get-on-my-level' ******, its failing. Failing hard in the name of making the game more fun.

[Vxheous]

Koniving, on 21 April 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

300 clicks per minute = 5 clicks per second.
It is humanly possible to do far more than that.

Furthermore, you're firing 5 cannons per second with a weapon system that has a native firing rate of 1 shot per 0.72 seconds..
So in that first second you have fired 5 shots.
Where if you simply held the button, you can fire 5 shots in 0.28 seconds less time and hit the exact some body part.

Yet further still... you have not only robbed yourself of concentrated alpha damage AND reduced your DPS from 13.9 to 10.

Your actual damage of 10 units per hit starting immediately and repeating every 0.72 seconds turns into 2 damage every 0.2 seconds in any number of potential areas and misses, tallying to 10 accumulated in 1 second., which actually puts you far behind from the very get-go.

Basically you're hurting yourself, and higher damage numbers while potentially lower kills can probably supplement that fact.

The only time it is advantageous, is in a case like with RACs and MGs, the weapons lack a "cooldown time", and as such can be tricked to fire as quickly as you click, in which case if you do something like 1,000 clicks per second can result in some really heineous stuff.. but with those oversights fixed, macro use basically hurts you there too.

Yes, it makes it fun. Yes you can rig up a beat with your autocannons and make them beatbox for ya. Yes, it helps with managing heat as it is slowing down your rate of fire and thus the rate in which you generate heat...

But in the end... it's costing you... and when it costs you and anyone can do it, it isn't cheating... In the eyes of some of those high-end Jarl's List 'get-on-my-level' ******, its failing. Failing hard in the name of making the game more fun.

I don't care about someone's Jarl's list, but other than that, this is probably the first post I've ever agreed with from you.

[Koniving]

There's always a start, I have made similar arguments in the past but those were without knowing of a deficiency in what PGI has done in regards to the MGs and RACs to make them exploitable...the complete lack of a cooldown time to lock the firing rate into what is intended to be permissible.

[Koniving]

Side note:
There was one mistake I made in that post.

In 1 second, the 300 RPM macro fires 5 shells or 1 shell at 2 damage each for 5 AC/2s...
In 0.72 seconds... The same 5 AC/2s with the button simply held down and no chain fire...would have fired 10 shells, or 2 shells at 2 damage each for 5 AC/2s.

The rest still stands should still stand as stated.

[Captain Caveman DE]

use it for the fun, but as others have pointed out:
alpha-firing has quite a lot advantages, while chain/macro has ~maybe~ supression, and hopefully fun going for it.

is it enough? yeah, sometimes; from time to time, I like to play a flak-turret, cause it brings a smile to my face..
doesn't mean that it's good in any way, though.

[Obiwayne]

There is only a 0,29 dps difference on the mech in question.

But lets not focus too much on the math or what someones Jarl might think. Try to look on other aspects I mentioned. There would be some diversity to an otherwise insignificant gameplay mechanic. People could pick their own playstyle, even if they are not as effective as time-proven playstyles.

What about the other possible quirks bigger computers could provide? They could mitigate possible drawbacks and simply enable you to play in a different way.

Right now we only have the choice between group fire and a crappy chain fire without 3rd party tools.

[Mystere]

Obiwayne, on 21 April 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

Some of you might know the tool which was advertised here in the forums. Its called Fire control and lets you set fire rates for multiple weapons, which is especially useful on mechs with a lot of autocannons. With the right settings, you have sustained fire with 300+rpm depending on how many ACs you have.

Long story short I never bothered with it but recently started using it on ac2 builds. And it feels like cheating. Why? Because a normal human being would never be able to use multiple ac/2s in chainfire with 300+ clicks per minute.

Afaik PGI never commented on this and the thread with the dl link is still up.

So my problem is that I feel like a cheater when using fire control (averaging 700damage per match with only 4ac/2s). On the other hand, that little tool is extremly useful and makes such builds fun to play.

But there is an easy solution. PGI could change how Targeting computers work. If they get rid of all the different types, they could give us just a few that are actually good for smth.

- a targeting/fire control computer for ACs that does the math for sustained fire
- a staggered fire computer for lrm boats
- the one we have with enhanced zoom/crit chance for lasers and ppcs

- MKII versions could have quirks like extended sensor range/faster target info/more ppc-ac-missile-velocity/extended effective range for lasers at the cost of tonnage and slots

That would not only solve the problem with some people using fire control while others dont. It would also give us some extra toys in the mechlab.

Thoughts?

Use of macros is allowed. End of story.

[Sergeant Destroy]

Firecontrol saves mousebutton lifes. Also ask a Starcaft player about 300 clicks per minute...

Edited by Sergeant Destroy, 21 April 2019 - 02:55 PM.

[Prototelis]

There is no advantage to running a macro, and you don't need a macro to chain 6 ac2s.

Set two fire groups with all weapons, one with chain fire. Click chain fire button 5 times then hold regular group fire button. Profit (maybe)

[Obiwayne]

Sergeant Destroy, on 21 April 2019 - 02:53 PM, said:

Firecontrol saves mousebutton lifes. Also ask a Starcaft player about 300 clicks per minute...

starcraft players do actions per minute, not mouseclicks per minute. thats a completly different story. nobody can sustain a 9 or 10 clicks per second, even if he/she can click that many times a second, he/she will eventually get out of pace.

Prototelis, on 21 April 2019 - 03:10 PM, said:

There is no advantage to running a macro, and you don't need a macro to chain 6 ac2s.

Set two fire groups with all weapons, one with chain fire. Click chain fire button 5 times then hold regular group fire button. Profit (maybe)

Are you saying there is some kind of ninja mechanic nobody knows about? And if it is advantageous or not to use chainfire is very arguable

Edited by Obiwayne, 21 April 2019 - 05:49 PM.

[Sergeant Destroy]

"Because a normal human being would never be able to use multiple ac/2s in chainfire with 300+ clicks per minute."

6 clicks/s are 360/m and absolutely no biggie. But for the sake of my mousebuttons and my ears id use firecontrol anytime when using ac/2. The only advantage you might get is not messing up your aim while hammering your mouse. Then again I spectated enough people not even hitting assaults while being stationary.

So all in all, another thread about nothing. Keep em coming.

Here`s my suggestions for the next topic: I couldnt get an lrm lock in my assault while being nascared because the matchmaker treated me badly.

Edited by Sergeant Destroy, 21 April 2019 - 06:29 PM.

[Obiwayne]

Sergeant Destroy, on 21 April 2019 - 06:19 PM, said:

"Because a normal human being would never be able to use multiple ac/2s in chainfire with 300+ clicks per minute."

6 clicks/s are 360/m and absolutely no biggie. But for the sake of my mousebuttons and my ears id use firecontrol anytime when using ac/2. The only advantage you might get is not messing up your aim while hammering your mouse. Then again I spectated enough people not even hitting assaults while being stationary.

So all in all, another thread about nothing. Keep em coming.

Here`s my suggestions for the next topic: I couldnt get an lrm lock in my assault while being nascared because the matchmaker treated me badly.

I really tried to be nice but Im too tired for this bull. If you are bothered by new ideas you might as well not participate in discussing them. Sadly the forum is full of cynical people who overestimate their abilities. If your cognitive capabilities dont allow you to engange a discussion in a serious way gtfo of my thread pls.

Btw: When you have to bragg about your "skills" at least back it up by sharing some of your insights instead of posting a bland statement.
How do I know if your are a good player or just some other fool talking trash? K/D means bull and nowadays every player seems to slip into tier 1 by accident. I play this game for long enough and dont need to be lectured on those aspects of the game that a 7 year old kid would understand. Long story shot: it only takes a little dedication to be a goodish mwo player, not any real "skill". We're not talking CSGO or PUBG here.

And my statement stands as it is: The game would greatly benefit. A little more freedom here and there cant hurt, not even you.

But Im sick of reading the same old cynical, hypocritical responses to almost every suggestion made here in the forum. No matter if the topic is either weapon balance, game modes, maps that wont promote nascaring or gameplay mechanics.

And you said it yourself: Even if you would be able to maintain a crazy click rate like 10/s (not without C0caine I may add), your aim gets messed up.

Edited by Obiwayne, 21 April 2019 - 07:30 PM.

[Sergeant Destroy]

90 percent of the topics are some peeps blowing non-issues out of proportion, trying to tailor the game to their limited abilities, like in basicly every other gaming forum. The rest is theorycrafting stuff that will never make it into a seven year old game at all. So it`s just normal you either get a cynical or no answer at all.

What the **** do you expect?

Edited by Sergeant Destroy, 21 April 2019 - 08:21 PM.

[cougurt]

Obiwayne, on 21 April 2019 - 07:28 PM, said:

I really tried to be nice but Im too tired for this bull. If you are bothered by new ideas you might as well not participate in discussing them. Sadly the forum is full of cynical people who overestimate their abilities. If your cognitive capabilities dont allow you to engange a discussion in a serious way gtfo of my thread pls.

Btw: When you have to bragg about your "skills" at least back it up by sharing some of your insights instead of posting a bland statement.
How do I know if your are a good player or just some other fool talking trash? K/D means bull and nowadays every player seems to slip into tier 1 by accident. I play this game for long enough and dont need to be lectured on those aspects of the game that a 7 year old kid would understand. Long story shot: it only takes a little dedication to be a goodish mwo player, not any real "skill". We're not talking CSGO or PUBG here.

And my statement stands as it is: The game would greatly benefit. A little more freedom here and there cant hurt, not even you.

But Im sick of reading the same old cynical, hypocritical responses to almost every suggestion made here in the forum. No matter if the topic is either weapon balance, game modes, maps that wont promote nascaring or gameplay mechanics.

And you said it yourself: Even if you would be able to maintain a crazy click rate like 10/s (not without C0caine I may add), your aim gets messed up.

the point is that these macros don't really give you any sort of tangible advantage. i wouldn't complain about having more options for the weapon grouping and chainfire system, but there's also not much point in going any further than what the game already allows.

just use a macro if you think it will help you.