49 replies to this topic

[FRAGTAST1C]

As the topic title asks, would you consider using two weapon systems to produce the same effect as one just to have other attributes?

For e.g., 2 UAC 5s deal a burst damage of 20, same as 1 UAC 10. Would it make sense to go for 2 UAC 5s instead of the single UAC 10 simply for more range and lesser cooldown time? At a glance, I know most of you are thinking, "Why is this guy asking stupid questions?" Well, stupid or not, try and humour me for now.

[Koniving]

Depends on the cost and if you can afford it.

You suffer less heat from twin UAC/5s, get more range, identical (or maybe slightly less) umph per bullet as well as a faster firing rate. But you need twice as many hardpoints and quite a bit more slots to hold them...and finally there's the tonnage.

Can you afford the slots? The extra hardpoint? The tonnage? If yes, there's no reason not to.
If no...then don't.

Edited by Koniving, 21 April 2019 - 10:51 PM.

[Sergeant Destroy]

I trade 2 uac10 for one 20 anytime if possible. Just because of range, velocity and the chance of only 1 gun jamming.

Edited by Sergeant Destroy, 21 April 2019 - 11:01 PM.

[Khobai]

x2 uac5s are better than x1 uac10

better range, better dps, less jamming, etc...

[LordNothing]

i like to keep things symmetrical so i don't loose the one section with the big gun. i for one like weapons in at least 3 sections to maximize my usefulness in battle. i tend to favor torso hardpoints. i do like builds hat have a small number of heavier weapons as opposed to arrays of lighter guns, provided they are distributed well.

most weapons when paired are better than one of the next size up of the same line, but this usually comes at the cost of heat. mrms i think are the only exception to that rule where its always better to carry the biggest rack even if you only have one.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 April 2019 - 11:40 PM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Hmm.. interesting thoughts.

I bought the Heavy Dropship deal containing Night Gyr Jade Kite, Sun Spider Vanguard, Rifleman Legend Killer and Warhammer Black Widow.

I have the mech list by denAirwalkerrr where he lists the Night Gyr (different model) loadout as 1 UAC 10 and 3 UAC 5. I'm leaning towards having an ECM, so my loadout would be 1 UAC 10, 2 UAC 5 and an ERPPC (could switch that out with another energy weapon that synergizes well with the range). The thing is, I could use 2 UAC 10 and a ERPPC with 17 DHS in total or 2 UAC 10 and 2 ERLL with slightly less number of DHS.

Similarly, for the Black Widow, the ideal loadout suggested is 1 UAC 10 and 2 UAC 5 with a lot of armour stripped off and a small engine. Wouldn't it better to go with 2 UAC 10 and armour up, get a bigger engine with spare tonnage for a couple of ML?

I get that the range and cooldown is different. But are they worth such big sacrifices, especially on the Black Widow?

[Maddermax]

As a general rule, two smaller weapons don’t have the same “effect” as one larger one, except possibly in how much damage they do. There are tonnage differences, range differences, slot differences, DPS and firing differences to consider.

Two AC5s are 16 tons, where an AC10 is 12 tons. But the AC5s have better range, velocity, DPS and so on. The 5s are better, at the cost of being 60% heavier and using an extra slot, and require more face time.

Meanwhile, lasers, two medium lasers are lighter than 1 large laser by 3 tons while having almost the same DPS, but they have much smaller range and more heat.

Generally, boating lots of smaller weapons is better to a point, but there are trade-offs involved. Small AC weapons take more tonnage and require more facetime, and generally can only be boated on a few heavier mechs, but they get more range and lower heat. Smaller laser weapons bring the damage, but are hampered with much shorter ranges and high heat. So it depends what you’re looking for.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Maddermax, on 22 April 2019 - 12:19 AM, said:

So it depends what you’re looking for.

To get that far, I need to know if the loadout that I've posted above are any good compared to those of denAirwalkerrr. Basically, with those mechs, I'm looking to stay at around 400m and deal damage. I'm not looking to brawl or face down the enemies.

[Sigmar Sich]

If i'm not mistaken, UAC/5 also have lesser jam chance or/and jam duration than a UAC/10, so it's not only a range/velocity trade-off for more weight.

Weight savings are very significant though, so i suppose there's no point talking without an example of application. Depends on situation. For example an Urbie simply can't afford to take double AC/5 for an AC/10, when Zeus can do so with ease.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Well, take the Black Widow e.g., then. Would 1 UAC 10 + 2 UAC 5 with a slower engine and lots of armour stripped off be better than 2 UAC 10 and some ML with a bigger engine and almost no armour shedding?

[Acersecomic]

Mutiple Ballistic smaller weapons create more DPS but weigh a lot more.
1 AC20 weighs 14 tons and fires every 4 seconds for 20 damage at short range.
2 AC10 weighs 12x2=24 tons and fires every 2.25 seconds for 10x2=20 damage at medium-long range.

Tradeoff of multiple weapon systems to produce the damage of a larger weapon is more weight but an increase in DPS.

I think the clearest meta example of that is single UAC20 vs four UAC5. Try it on a Fafnir-5 in the mechlab on training grounds.

[PhoenixFire55]

FRAGTAST1C, on 21 April 2019 - 10:46 PM, said:

As the topic title asks, would you consider using two weapon systems to produce the same effect as one just to have other attributes?

For e.g., 2 UAC 5s deal a burst damage of 20, same as 1 UAC 10. Would it make sense to go for 2 UAC 5s instead of the single UAC 10 simply for more range and lesser cooldown time? At a glance, I know most of you are thinking, "Why is this guy asking stupid questions?" Well, stupid or not, try and humour me for now.

Except its not "same" at all ...

Lets assume you mean IS:

2xUAC5s = 18 tons, 10 slots, 6 DPS, 2 HPS, 0.33 DPS/T
1xUAC10 = 13 tons, 7 slots, 4 DPS, 1.4 HPS, 0.31 DPS/T

The biggest difference is of course DPS, which is 50% higher for 2xUAC5s.

All autocannons have roughly similar DPS/T, which means that if you want more DPS you need to invest more tonnage into it. With 2xUAC5s you have about 50% more tonnage in guns compared to 1xUAC10, and as a result get about 50% more DPS. It would have been "same"-ish, if you could have 1.5xUAC5s vs 1xUAC10.

Other important factors are of course the range, which is greater for lower caliber and redundancy, i.e. the chance to lose all weapons (either due to crits or jamming) is higher when you have less said weapons.

[FRAGTAST1C]

I think I worded it incorrectly. I know the trade-offs in weight and DPS and range. What I'm seeking is whether it's good in practise to mount 2 UAC 5s instead of 1 UAC 10 when your goal is to deal damage at around 400m without sacrifising armour and engine size.

[PhoenixFire55]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 April 2019 - 02:26 AM, said:

I think I worded it incorrectly. I know the trade-offs in weight and DPS and range. What I'm seeking is whether it's good in practise to mount 2 UAC 5s instead of 1 UAC 10 when your goal is to deal damage at around 400m without sacrifising armour and engine size.

You have to be more specific on what you understand as "deal damage". Is it one-alpha in a vacuum? Or is it shooting same target non-stop for 20 seconds, etc.? It is also kinda impossible not to sacrifice anything when one weapon combo is 5 tons heavier than the other ...

[FRAGTAST1C]

Warhammer Black Widow

Is it better to shave off lots of armour and use a smaller engine to have 1 UAC 10 and 2 UAC 5?

OR

Is it better to keep the armour and use a bigger engine to have 2 UAC 10 and some ML?

Let's start with that e.g., please.

[Alienized]

well, 2 uac10 produce ALOT of heat.... i would propably go for 3 uac5 and some backup weapons after all *thinking*
edit: needs light/standard engine because slots.

Edited by Alienized, 22 April 2019 - 04:28 AM.

[Ilfi]

Generally you want maximum guns. 2 UAC10 is common for 55 tonners, so if you're fielding a Black Widow you want more than that.

For 2 UAC10 1 UAC5 vs. 2 UAC10 and MLs, it depends on how much heat you can tolerate and crit space. That said, keeping it ballistic means you have a higher effective range.

[Alienized]

Ilfi, on 22 April 2019 - 04:41 AM, said:

Generally you want maximum guns. 2 UAC10 is common for 55 tonners, so if you're fielding a Black Widow you want more than that.

For 2 UAC10 1 UAC5 vs. 2 UAC10 and MLs, it depends on how much heat you can tolerate and crit space. That said, keeping it ballistic means you have a higher effective range.

2 uac10 wont ever work on IS mechs i tell you that. clan mechs can do that, 2 uac10 run too hot on IS if you arent a chicken player running after each shot.

you cant even make 2 uac10 work properly on IS assaults for a longer period of fighting (which you surely want to do).

its not smart to just maximize firepower if you cant reliably stay in a battle. 2 uac10 jam too much outside of that anyway so if you want a unreliable mech, go for it.

i sure as hell want my mech to be able to fight back without overheating after 3 shots or unable to fight back because of jamming.

[PhoenixFire55]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 April 2019 - 04:21 AM, said:

Warhammer Black Widow

Is it better to shave off lots of armour and use a smaller engine to have 1 UAC 10 and 2 UAC 5?

OR

Is it better to keep the armour and use a bigger engine to have 2 UAC 10 and some ML?

Let's start with that e.g., please.

Well, mine is 4xAC5s ...
Again, better for what? ... If you are running around in nascar you need bigger engine. If you are holding the line you need max armor and weaponry, etc. But in all honesty 2xUAC10s and backup lasers is a build that a 6R can do better. If you have a BlackWidow might as well use those 4 ballistics.

[Alienized]

just played my black widow (half skilled, barely any weapon skills yet) with 3 uac5's and 3 er small lasers. was OK'ish for a map like polar highlands.
jamming was a bit of a problem as i was pretty much firing for 3 minutes flat ^^ er small lasers for that situation did their job.

i think that 4 ac5 might just be the best thing to do on it tho.