77 replies to this topic

[InfinityBall]

Nesutizale, on 25 April 2019 - 05:25 AM, said:

Lore: allows linked units to share radar and targeting data on the lance or company levels. Rules: When a unit has an enemy within line of sight, all units within the same C3 network will be able to target the spotted enemy using the best range modifier available to the closest spotting unit. C3 Master Computer can also duplicate TAG functionality for use with homing weapons. All of these bonuses are negated if the connection between the master and slave unit is disrupted by an ECM field, except for the TAG functionality of the master. This can mean a unit is within the ECM field, or the line of sight between slaved units and the master passes through an ECM bubble. From the lore perspective we all have free C3 as we all share radar and targeting data. As from the rules perspective. We don't have range modifiers, so thats pretty useless to us. The next best thing we have is that target lockon time is now dependet on the closest unit, IIRC. That is pretty much what the C3 is supposed to do, also limited to 4 units except someone has double C3M units for a larger group. I think it pretty much save to say that we allready have C3 for free. Take that away so that every player only can lock on what he sees and only sees what his personal radar shows...man that could get ugly.

Except you're talking about everyone having TAG on all the time

[Nesutizale]

C3 = Shared rader and lockon times for 4 units, cost 1t / 1c per slave and 3t (IIRC) for the master unit.
MWO = Shared radar and lockon times for all units, no cost

That is pretty much a free C3 to me.
TAG just adds to this reduced missile spread and even faster lockon times.

What would be correct is that each mech only sees on his radar what the mechs radar can pick up, not what any other mech could see.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Ok, I realize you guys want to ignore the main feature of the C3 network. The only feature, that makes it worthwile for TT. Do you believe, shared information (which means nothing for TT) and lock-on (which does not exist) would make anyone take this system? No. Then why is this system such an invention and so beneficial for a lance or company?
It's because of its by some MWO-players ignored feature:

C3 Rules said:

[color=#959595]When a unit has an enemy within line of sight, all units within the same C3 network will be able to target the spotted enemy using the best range modifier available to the closest spotting unit.[/color]

That means all units in the C3 fire onto the target as if it was in the same range as the nearest C3-unit.

Do we have something like that in MWO? No? So, no C3 here, just normal information sharing like it is without C3 in TT rules.

[Karl Streiger]

Nesutizale, on 28 April 2019 - 12:15 AM, said:

What would be correct is that each mech only sees on his radar what the mechs radar can pick up, not what any other mech could see.

Well and this is where you are wrong.
K, you could say the Dev did thought the same -> ECM but it's still wrong.
The target sharing as we know it was primarily a question of communication and tactics.

Before ECM a look on the map showed me movement, intercept routes and openings that I could have exploit. After ECM even with VOIP and a team tactic became blunt, individual movement became blobs - only way to get somewhat of focus fire.
Movement was something like "oh movent in E3 F4" serious?
Important stuff like, how many, which types, which direction are important and without superb trained scout impossible to get.

ECM was the end of dedicated commanders and scouts... Sure in C3 TT is some black hole magic - perfect for risk reward - but it's clearly not the target sharing we have in MWO.

In MWLL there was a adequate working info warfare system - like other stuff something that would have been necessary in MWO, after the three USPs, that MWO had over all other MW parts and mods, were gone (no instant convergence, knockdown and HSR)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 28 April 2019 - 10:18 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Bush Hopper, on 27 April 2019 - 05:48 AM, said:

In Battletech you could split crits into other locations

Well in any case I think it's more of a limitation of PGI's code for it. Than any balance decision. I'm sure they could change it, but probably don't want to spend the resources on it.

[Void Angel]

[*checks lore values for weapons and armor/structure points]
[*checks MWO values]
[*dedides that you can't fix stupid, and ignores the thread.]
[*you know, again. 'cause either this or the opposite topic gets recreated about every seven weeks around here.]

MechaBattler, on 28 April 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:

Well in any case I think it's more of a limitation of PGI's code for it. Than any balance decision. I'm sure they could change it, but probably don't want to spend the resources on it.

Yes, it's a coding thing for MWO. It's one of the reasons some of the 'mech-carried artillery aren't in the game, for example.

[MechaBattler]

Void Angel, on 28 April 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

[*checks lore values for weapons and armor/structure points]
[*checks MWO values]
[*dedides that you can't fix stupid, and ignores the thread.]
[*you know, again. 'cause either this or the opposite topic gets recreated about every seven weeks around here.]


Yes, it's a coding thing for MWO. It's one of the reasons some of the 'mech-carried artillery aren't in the game, for example.

Can you imagine though if they added artillery? Would it be like world of tanks where you have a top down view and can see the shots landing? Which makes no sense. Or perhaps you'd just manually aim it in a quadrant on the map and hope to hit something.

[FupDup]

Void Angel, on 28 April 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

Yes, it's a coding thing for MWO. It's one of the reasons some of the 'mech-carried artillery aren't in the game, for example.

There are some artillery weapons small enough to work in MWO even without crit-splitting, like Clan Arrow IV, Mech Mortars, Sniper Cannon, and Thumper Artillery Cannon.

[FupDup]

MechaBattler, on 28 April 2019 - 01:49 PM, said:

Can you imagine though if they added artillery? Would it be like world of tanks where you have a top down view and can see the shots landing? Which makes no sense. Or perhaps you'd just manually aim it in a quadrant on the map and hope to hit something.

Ever use the Long Tom in MW4? You just aim the cannon upwards and try to predict where the shot will land based on its firing arc. The most assistance you might get might be something like how MekTek highlighted a little circle on your minimap where your shot was estimated to land based on where you were currently aiming it.

The Arrow-IV would probably be a lock-on weapon though, so I'm not as enthusiastic about it...

[General Solo]

Like a Super Mega grenade launcher.

I'll take two

[VonBruinwald]

Nesutizale, on 28 April 2019 - 12:15 AM, said:

What would be correct is that each mech only sees on his radar what the mechs radar can pick up, not what any other mech could see.

A better compromise, to save some tears, would be enemy contacts outside your own LOS only appear on the minimap.

Then add C3 (or C3i) for the IS to enable it on their HUD.

[Sjorpha]

Why do people believe that you somehow need a C3 network for indirect fire in TT, and that being able to do so in MWO is somehow "free C3"?

You can fire LRMs etc on targets spotted by a teammate in TT, no C3 or any other extra equipment needed. MWO functions pretty much like TT when in comes to IDF except we have the delayed locking mechanic that doesn't exist in TT.

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 April 2019 - 04:11 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Sjorpha, on 29 April 2019 - 04:10 PM, said:

Why do people believe that you somehow need a C3 network for indirect fire in TT, and that being able to do so in MWO is somehow "free C3"?

You can fire LRMs etc on targets spotted by a teammate in TT, no C3 or any other extra equipment needed. MWO functions pretty much like TT when in comes to IDF except we have the delayed locking mechanic that doesn't exist in TT.

I dunno, people don't want to understand, I guess.

[Karl Streiger]

Sjorpha, on 29 April 2019 - 04:10 PM, said:

Why do people believe that you somehow need a C3 network for indirect fire in TT, and that being able to do so in MWO is somehow "free C3"?

You can fire LRMs etc on targets spotted by a teammate in TT, no C3 or any other extra equipment needed. MWO functions pretty much like TT when in comes to IDF except we have the delayed locking mechanic that doesn't exist in TT.

Wait one,
I lost a Warhammer in TT through snake eyes caused by an indirect LRM strike, but afaik the spotter is not able to do any other action this turn, or is this something from a older ruleset?

However in a skilled base system the current lovk mechanism is horrible, for example you are locked in close range dog fight, and yummy and his brother can lob LRMs into your fight hitting the enemy as much as they hit you.
If spotting would need a action (read the spotter do the LRM lock) then it would at least the role of the scout again.
But this might need a complete overhaul if the mechanic not some bandaids like flying arc or speed

[Comante]

Reading this thread I can only conclude a thing: You can't pretend Counter-Strike to turn into Arma III, and viceversa. I would really like a mech game that is more based on skill and cooperation than pay per win special mechs and wiping alphastrike at 20 meters, but that game can't be MWO. There are a lot of things that could be done at gameplay and simulation level in 2019 to capture the lore of TT Battletech without reducing it in a Counterstrike with mechs, but it would be a completely different game.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

lol, nice bait, mate.

[Sjorpha]

Karl Streiger, on 29 April 2019 - 09:44 PM, said:

Wait one,
I lost a Warhammer in TT through snake eyes caused by an indirect LRM strike, but afaik the spotter is not able to do any other action this turn, or is this something from a older ruleset?

However in a skilled base system the current lovk mechanism is horrible, for example you are locked in close range dog fight, and yummy and his brother can lob LRMs into your fight hitting the enemy as much as they hit you.
If spotting would need a action (read the spotter do the LRM lock) then it would at least the role of the scout again.
But this might need a complete overhaul if the mechanic not some bandaids like flying arc or speed

It's extremely simple. If a friendly unit has LoS on the target then other friendly units with LRMs can fire indirectly on that target as long as they are in range.

You can "spot" with infantry or whatever, it doesn't have to be a mech and no special equipment needed. There are penalties to the hit chance for indirect fire and additional penalties apply if the spotter is moving and the usual penalties depending on the range the LRM mech is trying to hit from etc etc. If you are trying to paint the target with a tag laser or NARC that is basically like using a weapon and a successful hit will improve the chances to hit and effectiveness of any indirect fire on that target, but you can of course still fire indirectly at the target as usual even if you fail to TAG or NARC it.

Now the funniest thing about the "MWO has free C3!" nonsense is that not only do you not need C3 to fire indirectly, it's even worse than that: C3 in TT has absolutely no effect on indirect fire whatsoever, it's bonuses only apply to direct fire.

The requirements for indirect fire are actually higher in MWO than they are in TT. In TT you only need a friendly with LoS and a LRM unit in range, in MWO you need a friendly with LoS that is actively targeting the target, and a LRM mech that simultaneously acquires and holds a lock on the target, and both these things have to last long enough for the LRMs to hit. Now I'm not saying that using LRMs in MWO is by any stretch difficult, but it's a fact that the requirements are much higher than they are in the tabletop game.

Edited by Sjorpha, 01 May 2019 - 05:05 AM.

[General Solo]

So now with increased spread and increased lock time it like a plenty for indirect fire
Its da Lore

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 04 May 2019 - 05:23 AM.