23 replies to this topic

[RickySpanish]

Theoretically, 3 ER PPCs on the VGL 1 yields a better sustained damage output since the tonnage difference allows you to invest in heatsinks to the point where the extra heat from the third PPC is mitigated. BUT, after trying both builds, inspite of the lower sustained damage output of the 2 PPC + gauss build, I do much better in it. I have begun to suspect something is a little off with either my play style or my interpretation of dps shown.

I'm running 6 jump jets on both builds because why else would you pop tart in a VGL? 255 engine in the gauss build, 265 in the triple PPC build. Theoretical deeps is about 1 point better with triple PPCs - so very close. Yet, I find myself cooking off often and having to simmer down often with triple PPCs.

Perhaps I am more tempted to eat the ghost heat with triple PPCs since it takes more effort to alpha with the gauss in the mix?

For those who have tried, which build do you prefer?

[FupDup]

Maybe swap one ERPPC for an LPL so you can alpha without any spooky heat? Also gives you a hitscan poker for those times when projectile velocity just won't cooperate with your intentions.

[Grus]

Or just drop the 3rd ppc for a fat TC and call it a day.

[Shanrak]

Or run the 2 gauss 3 ermed build

[FupDup]

Also, wouldn't the triple ERPPC build actually have a 280 engine?
VGL-1 Triple ERPeepers

Or did you go with max arm armor and fill the arms with dubs?

[Y E O N N E]

You guys have some weird ideas about how to build this one.

Here.

or

Here.

You don't need more than 2x JJs to poptart effectively, especially not on the VGL which has JJ thrust and duration quirks.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 04 May 2019 - 12:18 PM.

[RickySpanish]

FupDup, on 04 May 2019 - 11:58 AM, said:

Also, wouldn't the triple ERPPC build actually have a 280 engine?
VGL-1 Triple ERPeepers

Or did you go with max arm armor and fill the arms with dubs?

Yes I put some sinks in the right arm and protected it. You don't need many jump jets true, except that the quirks don't pay off with just a couple of jets. I've also found the extra agility afforded by the jets to be rather important. You can reposition much more effectively, and you always have fuel when your weapons are off cool down. With 6 jets for example you can fire off the PPCs then bring yourself to a hover to snap the gauss round or third PPC off on target.

[Y E O N N E]

The problem with more jets is that it cuts into your heat dissipation; it's a subtle thing in the moment but it makes a fairly sizeable impact on the outcome of a match. That's why most of the meta builds for Mediums don't tend to use more than two. Heavies, you have to use at least three because you won't get sufficiently quick lift otherwise.

[RickySpanish]

Y E O N N E, on 04 May 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

The problem with more jets is that it cuts into your heat dissipation; it's a subtle thing in the moment but it makes a fairly sizeable impact on the outcome of a match. That's why most of the meta builds for Mediums don't tend to use more than two. Heavies, you have to use at least three because you won't get sufficiently quick lift otherwise.

Yeah definitely, I found though that I would often end up on nominal heat without a firing position, so I went all in with the jets to see the difference and have ended up preferring it. I began to enjoy the freedom of being able to drop into and fly out of holes/canyons etc that other 'Mechs have difficulty scaling. It sort of kind of reminds me of the golden age of pop tarting when I used to run a UAC 5 dual PPC Shadowhawk. Aah the good old days!

[Y E O N N E]

I mean, I run a BJ-3 with dual HPPC on only two jets. I prefer the feel of four jets, but even with ERPPCs and more DHS, four jets cuts deep into how much I can continue to output and two jets is enough to poptart.

The ERPPC VGL is less of a classic poptart than the BJ-3 and almost more of a turret, so I place less importance on JJ mobility.

[FupDup]

For Class-4 jets, the first jet gives you 2.0 hps and any jets after that give you 0.06 extra hps. For 2 jets it's thus 2.06 hps vs. the 2.18 hps of quad jets.

The truly significant "heat increase" is from the opportunity cost of spending the tonnage on jets instead of an extra dub, but the Vape Eagle has tonnage for days so I don't think it would matter as much on that mech as much as it would for something gimmicky like a double HPPC Blackjack that doesn't have any tonnage to spare.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeonne has it right. 3JJ is Max you need and 2 is generally fine.

I run 3JJ on the -3 only because I need a JJ bar with lots of juice to constantly fire. With 3ERPPC you kinda can't fire as often so it's not an issue. 4+ JJ is crazy and you're missing out on DHS.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 04 May 2019 - 03:17 PM, said:

For Class-4 jets, the first jet gives you 2.0 hps and any jets after that give you 0.06 extra hps. For 2 jets it's thus 2.06 hps vs. the 2.18 hps of quad jets.

The truly significant "heat increase" is from the opportunity cost of spending the tonnage on jets instead of an extra dub, but the Vape Eagle has tonnage for days so I don't think it would matter as much on that mech as much as it would for something gimmicky like a double HPPC Blackjack that doesn't have any tonnage to spare.

The HPPC BJ-3 is not really a gimmick, it's a serious build which is why it's A-tier on GrimMechs. And for standard weight PPCs it has no shortage of tonnage to spend on dubs. Plus it has a dissipation quirk.

Bottom line is that more jets further interrupts the rate of fire on a build archetype already struggling to fire as fast as it can. I said the influence is subtle, but it's definitely there.

[General Solo]

And I was running two ppc's
Wot a scrub

Thanks for the 280 build Yeonne

[FupDup]

Y E O N N E, on 04 May 2019 - 03:27 PM, said:

The HPPC BJ-3 is not really a gimmick, it's a serious build which is why it's A-tier on GrimMechs. And for standard weight PPCs it has no shortage of tonnage to spend on dubs. Plus it has a dissipation quirk.

Bottom line is that more jets further interrupts the rate of fire on a build archetype already struggling to fire as fast as it can. I said the influence is subtle, but it's definitely there.

I consider it to be a gimmick because it's trying to cram more guns than it can comfortably cool (as you mentioned) and because it lacks any kind of defense within 90 meters (assuming you copied the GrimMechs build). I can already hear the Fleas salivating from here.

Of course, the biggest flaw it has is that it can't carry Clan ERPPCs...

Edited by FupDup, 04 May 2019 - 03:42 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 04 May 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

I consider it to be a gimmick because it's trying to cram more guns than it can comfortably cool (as you mentioned) and because it lacks any kind of defense within 90 meters (assuming you copied the GrimMechs build). I can already hear the Fleas salivating from here.

Of course, the biggest flaw it has is that it can't carry Clan ERPPCs...

It's not more guns than it can comfortably cool, it can cool them just fine thanks to the quirks and without sacrificing any of its speed. The VGL has more trouble cooling three cERPPCs than the BJ-3 has cooling two HPPCs; the latter almost never hits redline and is more limited by the weapon cycle time.

But if you throw on more JJs, it starts eating into it, which is what I was pointing out with running four when using ERPPCs. Those guns need to fire more often to work because they are only 2/3 the damage, and with more JJs cutting into the dissipation you ruin that. The same applies to cERPPCs which, if you are going to actually take advantage of having more than two, requires all the dissipation you can get.

[FRAGTAST1C]

When is the Veagle available for C-bills? Is the Hero variant any good? I'm not entirely sure on that one tbh.

[FupDup]

FRAGTAST1C, on 04 May 2019 - 04:54 PM, said:

When is the Veagle available for C-bills? Is the Hero variant any good? I'm not entirely sure on that one tbh.

It'll come in the Rifleman IIC patch, and the hero variant kinda sucks it would seem.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeah hero isn't as good as the cbill chassis.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Hmmm... I thought so. The energy hardpoints in the arms is not my thing. I'm eager to try out the Veagle 1, 2, 3 and 4 however. They are very interesting.