42 replies to this topic

[Jonathan8883]

Clan Fire Mandrill, because they're a navel-gazing group of barbarians constantly focused on fighting against each other instead of unifying to get anything useful done, known mostly for their self-destructive ways and lack of foresight rather than any particular virtue aside from being reasonably competent warriors.

[Novakaine]

Years ago and at the expense of many lives.
A combined IS force commando's raided a Clan gene bank.
Their mission was simple sabotage, but what they found was actually far worse.
Originally it was well thought that Alexandr Kerensky was the Clans original gene father.
But after the raid it was found to be untrue.
As the real gene father was actually this man Icky Twerp.
The surviving agents retrieved the information and scrubbed the mission.
Of the original 12 man team only 3 survived the perilous and hilarious mission.
Upon their return they were hailed as hero's and paid a tidy sum.
Unfortunately this information would not help the war effort.
But many a Inner Sphere Lord laughed for weeks.

[Anjian]

The more which clan is full of self righteous megalomaniacs, the closer they are to the vision.

[MeiSooHaityu]

If we are talking Alexander Kerensky, I always thought that the Warden way was probably closer to his vision of what roll the returning SLDF would play. So basically Clan Wolf, Clan Ghost Bear, and any other prominent Warden Clan.

If we are talking about the father of the Clans themselves, Nicholas Kerensky, that is a little more complicated. He was a bit more of a sociopath, and he had a very hard line way of seeing things. It united the waring SLDF into a more constructive society, but at a great cost. With ushering in such dramatic changes to their society, who really knows how brutal Nicholas wanted to be when handling the Inner Sphere.

I have a feeling it lies somewhere in the middle of the Warden and Crusader philosophy, although I could see it leaning more towards Crusader.

Alexander and Nicholas had different ways of seeing things, although had Nicholas been more clear about is intentions for the Clans before his death, we would know for sure how different he intended it to be.

[Daneel Hazen]

Prior to Malvina I would say the Falcons or the Wolves but they have both screwed it up so bad I don't know even where to begin to start (although Malvina getting her *** handed to her might set the falcons straight). The bears could have been but they melded too thoroughly and too early.

There is some new smoke jag lore pretty recently... the few survivors (like 100 warriors) that made it out the annihilation alive seem to believe they are still a clan - unfortunately there was only 100 of them and despite what anyone says I'd say loss of your invasion corridor and becoming refugees kind of kills the idea that you're the ilclan but they did make it to terra. I personally think they are not a clan any longer or effective as one but the guys seem to have the correct mindset that I think Kerensky would give the nod to- but at the same time they serve an IS guy they could not possibly bring to heel if the guy was corrupt so... hard to say.

Edited by Daneel Hazen, 13 May 2019 - 04:04 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Honestly the Clans disgust me. To go from a professional military force to a tribal society that practices war like it's a game. It just irks me. And Alexander Kerensky was an idiot. War is a terrible tragedy. If it must be waged, it should be done decisively, win or lose. But it must end! If he had chosen a side there wouldn't have been multiple succession wars. It's not like one idiotic despot family was much better than the other.

But whatever. I get what they were going for with the Clans. It was a parody of the Mongolians who stomped half the world, including Eastern Europe, and would have done the same to Western Europe if Genghis Khan hadn't died.

[Battlemaster56]

I doubted the SLDF siding with one faction will do any good since it a mix of people from the different houses, and they would just go awol back to their houses and the succession wars continue on.

And yes Clan society is not the professional organization of the past, it more interesting personally for them to be tribal warrior group than, something like the Enclave from Fallout. But than again I'm a huge Mandalorian and love their whole tribal warrior thing going on, so I'm bias to that type of groups.

[MechaBattler]

He could have held them together long enough to deliver a decisive blow that would have tipped the balance to one faction or another. Instead the Inner Sphere ground itself very nearly to the stone age. No thanks to Comstar's assassination of scientists.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

MechaBattler, on 13 May 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

Honestly the Clans disgust me. To go from a professional military force to a tribal society that practices war like it's a game. It just irks me.

But isn't that the definition of a professional military force or standing army in any empire or era? On their free time, as their day job, professional armies constantly practice the art of killing. As though it were in fact, a game. Treating war like a terrible tragedy means nobody's job card in your society should read "soldier". But today the military is one of the biggest full time employers in the world's richest countries.

The struggle over Afghanistan between the Russian and British Empires in the 19th century was nicknamed "The Great Game". Throughout the Cold War and into today, the maneuvers of the great geopolitical powers are talked about as a giant chess match. Game of Thrones is the most popular new fictional cultural output of the last decade.

So I'm not sure I see a lot different between Clan society and our own society, other than the fact they put the Warrior Class on top and we put the Merchant Class on top. We're moving slowly but surely toward test tube babies. Economic growth is directly correlated with military power, and the world's current obsession with competition over trade is a type of quiet proxy war between our earth's own "Clans", the maneuvering for advantage before the real shooting starts.

So yeah, I do think the SLDF was already Clan Lite, as was the Roman Imperial Army, the Templars and all the other professional standing armies that have existed through history.

The closest we've ever gotten to a true pacifist professional army is UN peacekeepers (who are still all temporarily drawn from tribal member nation forces), but the Star League "Defense" Force was always depicted as a fair bit more aggressive than the blue helmets in how they enforced "peace".

The second you pick up a gun and are prepared to shoot someone, you lose the ability to claim you're "defensive" or "peaceful". You're now a full fledged member of the Department of Offense and the Ministry of Attack.

Maybe Nicholas Kerensky was just seeing the military for what it really is. No hypocrisy. No nonsense. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Well that's just my worldview, anyway.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 13 May 2019 - 12:43 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Except that in wargames you don't kill your opponents or take 'bondsmen'. They're playing a game paid in blood and bondage. Kinda reminds me of what I've heard of the Aztecs. Though I'm not well read into that. However their game comes back to bite them in the butt when they go to war with the Inner Sphere.

[Alex Morgaine]

Which clans choose to reintegrate into the sphere instead of trying to take it by force?

[Battlemaster56]

Wolf in Exile and Nova Cats just settle in and cooperate with the IS, I think Ghost Bear counts to.

[Hellcat420]

the clans were never part of his vision, and tbh he would probably be pretty disgusted with them just as he was with the starleague.

Edited by Hellcat420, 13 May 2019 - 02:02 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

evilauthor, on 12 May 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

Except the SLDF was made up of people from every member state of the Star League. That's part of why they fell into civil war and infighting after leaving the Inner Sphere; several of the divisions were along member state lines.

If Alexandr Kerensky picked one House to align with, the SLDF would have likely fractured then and there as everyone rushes back to their House, thus increasing the body count of the Succession Wars. And that's assuming the other four Houses don't see what's going on and just dogpile the House that Alex picks.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Kerensky had the charisma to keep the SLDF unified while he was alive; if he could convince his followers to leave all that they knew behind for some barren worlds barely within the gravitational pull of the Milky Way, he also could have convinced them to follow him as he reconquers the Inner Sphere by whatever means, including making some deals with the great houses if necessary. I also doubt the houses dogpile him, because the SLDF is still the largest army with the best toys and any one of them would literally kill anybody to have that on their side.

The Clans are not anything to aspire to, they are a symbol of Kerensky's ultimate folly. That's the whole point of them. I just find the decision that led to the Clans' creation to be out of character for Kerensky; he's supposed to be smarter than that. I had this conversation with Grus, but if I were to re-write it I would say that Amaris escaped the IS and the SLDF went off to chase him down, leaving only a token force back home. The token force split along House lines during the Succession wars without Kerensky when his most trusted second is assassinated; the part that Kerensky personally lead to chase down Amaris ended up getting bogged down in decades-long warfare with the Amaris remnants to the point where they are reduced to tribalism for the sake of survival, barely remembering why they were even there. The duelist culture is paramount to preserving their resources. And they don't get super-tech, they get over-driven IS tech that is faster, stronger, and tougher but also hotter, harder to pilot, and more prone to break-downs. They are savage and cold, and they return to the IS to conquer and claim resources as the Pentagon Worlds are barren and depleted.

That is far more organic and far more interesting to me than Space Furries with MunchkinTech.

Battlemaster56, on 13 May 2019 - 01:28 PM, said:

Wolf in Exile and Nova Cats just settle in and cooperate with the IS, I think Ghost Bear counts to.

Ghost Bear assimilated Rassalhague, so no. Not quite the same thing.

[RJF Volkodav]

MechaBattler, on 13 May 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

Honestly the Clans disgust me. To go from a professional military force to a tribal society that practices war like it's a game. It just irks me.

Yeah yeah... While IS had degradation in population, technology, created HPG religion, fought constant wars and almost went to stone age Clans built a society with population growing from several millions to billions of ppl, created new tech, advanced in sciense and economy. Clans are not only warrior caste, in fact it's about 0,01% of warriors among total population and they are far from "tribal force" as they create while practicing to be the best. Instead tribal force are IS houses destroying everything around.

[Karl Streiger]

Battlemaster56, on 13 May 2019 - 01:28 PM, said:

Wolf in Exile and Nova Cats just settle in and cooperate with the IS, I think Ghost Bear counts to.

Wolf in Exile became pets of the Lyrans and the Nova Cats got wiped out (to the last man, woman and child, even the non combatants).So much for corporation.

Well with the destiny of the Nova Cats irks me, they deserved better but they stayed with the wrong faction, not that there was a right faction but one.

RJF Volkodav, on 14 May 2019 - 12:48 AM, said:

created HPG religion,

Wrong wording, humans have the negative/positive perk to use everything that is available (so the reason that your money never is enough no matter how much you earn, the issue that your new hard drive is full, already - that is the will of nature)

To break that circle you need religion or self-denial. Blake realized that an uncontrolled use of technology will have devastating effects and he stayed correct.

[VonBruinwald]

Can I get some clarification form the lore-hounds:

1 - What was Aleksanders original visions? I thought it was to create a new star league overseeing the sphere after everything was done splattering off the fan. That's where the Warden mentality originates.

2 - What was Nicholas' goal? He's basically a psycho who wanted everyone to obey him and wiped out those who didn’t (see:wolverines). The Crusaders are basically what happens when Nicholas' desire for absolute power is mixed with Aleksandrs will to return to the sphere.

[Battlemaster56]

Karl Streiger, on 14 May 2019 - 01:12 AM, said:

Wolf in Exile became pets of the Lyrans and the Nova Cats got wiped out (to the last man, woman and child, even the non combatants).So much for corporation.

Well with the destiny of the Nova Cats irks me, they deserved better but they stayed with the wrong faction, not that there was a right faction but one.

Well so far what I got the Exiles is more treated as a sovereign entity a favored allies to the Lyrans, after helping overthrown their crazy leader during the FCCW.

Nova Cats well there are the Spirit Cats basically what left any Nova Cats in the Sphere, but I don't care much of reading their spot in the universe atm.

[Y E O N N E]

RJF Volkodav, on 14 May 2019 - 12:48 AM, said:

Yeah yeah... While IS had degradation in population, technology, created HPG religion, fought constant wars and almost went to stone age Clans built a society with population growing from several millions to billions of ppl, created new tech, advanced in sciense and economy. Clans are not only warrior caste, in fact it's about 0,01% of warriors among total population and they are far from "tribal force" as they create while practicing to be the best. Instead tribal force are IS houses destroying everything around.

1. IS only ended up as bad as it did because ComStar wanted it to; IS were rebuilding fine without the Clans coming to spread their "enlightenment" since, by then, the Houses had sussed out what ComStar was doing

2. In Clan society, being anything other than a warrior is to be a second-class citizen with fewer rights and privileges; the only exceptions are Diamond Sharks and, to a lesser extent, Ghost Bears

3. To be natural-born is to always be marked as inferior, through no inherent fault of your own and few avenues for improving your social standing

4. Clans solve every problem by killing, same as the Inner Sphere; what is the practical difference between an Trial of Possession and a key assassination to get what you want? Nothing at all. Clans make war just the same, too; they annihilate each or consume other when it suits their fancy. Their wars are smaller because they are smaller.

VonBruinwald, on 14 May 2019 - 07:38 AM, said:

Can I get some clarification form the lore-hounds:

1 - What was Aleksanders original visions? I thought it was to create a new star league overseeing the sphere after everything was done splattering off the fan. That's where the Warden mentality originates.

His goal was to wait for the Houses to blast each other to bits, then come back with the SLDF to re-unify them after they were spent. It didn't work because:

1. He died and his SLDF fractured along House lines without his guidance
2. Nicholas turned his father into a demi-god to unify the successors into a fighting force, twisting the message
3. The Clans spent so long fighting each other that the IS had more or less rebuilt without them, rendering their purpose moot.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 14 May 2019 - 02:53 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 02:48 PM, said:

1. IS only ended up as bad as it did because ComStar wanted it to; IS were rebuilding fine without the Clans coming to spread their "enlightenment" since, by then, the Houses had sussed out what ComStar was doing

...

His goal was to wait for the Houses to blast each other to bits, then come back with the SLDF to re-unify them after they were spent. It didn't work because:

I've always wondered if Jerome and Aleksander were in it together.

Aleksander leaves and Jerome remains to manufacturers a situation where the SLDF can return as saviours and re-establish the league. For all we know the Jihad could have been part of their plans, what better time would there have been for the SLDF to return. If you want "human tyranny so vile that it transcended the bounds of decency" then the Jihad had it. It's just a shame the Crusaders messed it all up by invading before their time.