429 replies to this topic

[Cato Zilks]

Geewiz 27, on 29 May 2019 - 04:17 PM, said:

It's a bit unrealistic to expect Paul know that you guys have that situation or to base game decisions around 1 hub of players?

Actually, a lot of that organizing happened here in the forums and had he asked veteran players before hand we could have told him that DC and FRR merged TS servers back after phase 3 launched and Long Tom crushed the turnout. So it is only unrealistic if you think pm'ing some vets is off the table.

[dario03]

SeventhSL, on 29 May 2019 - 04:20 PM, said:

I think we have loyalist desires locked down pretty well now. To summarise in order of priority:

1. Loyalists want to be able to choose any faction not just those in the current event.
2. Want to fight under their chosen faction’s banner which will display as their forum profile etc.
3. Do not want to be excluded from fighting in any event.
4. Want to be able to change faction easily just in case of the unforeseen.
5. Would like a reward for being long term loyalist that is not available to those who swap factions often.
6. Would like the “level 20 what then” issue solved.

As I read it, Paul’s last suggestion ticks off all but point 6 which has been a community wishlist item for a long time now.

I believe the other concerns, like getting games, premades avoiding each other and population balance, are really related to match maker so I’m ready to start the discussion about match maker and those topics.

I don't see why number 5 and 6 are both needed. I think rewards post lvl20 should be added (start the rewards over) but not so much the special rewards for being loyal for a long time. Why should the game reward players that stay loyal to a faction if staying loyal to a faction doesn't help make games nor balance population? Don't need to punish them for being loyal, but don't need to reward them either.

[SeventhSL]

Cato Zilks, on 29 May 2019 - 04:24 PM, said:

I am not sure we don't have the population.

Population suffers because people play games for fun and getting stomped repeatedly is not fun. Premades tell PUGs to suck it up but swap sides or quite for the night as soon as they get stomped by a better team.

Every time PGI encourages new players into FP the Premades gather and stomp them out again. FP will never be popular while that happens and that means MWO as a whole will suffer. QP is not enough to keep people playing long term.

The fix is as simple as it has always been.

Matchmaker Primary Focus (Get games, faction doesn’t matter):
1. Match Premades vs Permades
2. Match PUGs vs PUGs
3. As a last resort match PUGs vs Premades.

Matchmaker Secondary Focus (Lore):
4. Faction A vs Faction B
5. Faction A vs Faction A OR Faction B vs Faction B.

Advantages of this are:
1. Players don’t have to swap sides to get a game.
2. PUGs don’t get stomped all the time.
4. Premades can’t avoid each other all the time.
5. System scales with population and gets better as population grows.

At the end of the day most Premades will fight changes like this tooth and nail using every excuse under the sun. They know what it means. How good do your stats look if you are fighting fair fights vs stomping noobs?

Edited by SeventhSL, 29 May 2019 - 06:23 PM.

[Geewiz 27]

Cato Zilks, on 29 May 2019 - 04:28 PM, said:

Actually, a lot of that organizing happened here in the forums and had he asked veteran players before hand we could have told him that DC and FRR merged TS servers back after phase 3 launched and Long Tom crushed the turnout. So it is only unrealistic if you think pm'ing some vets is off the table.

Well that's fine but doesn't matter how you group it, it won't suit everyone in game. Also while at some point this may have been a decently populated group I think times have changed because I can't remember the last time I saw a group of them in FP.

[SeventhSL]

dario03, on 29 May 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

I don't see why number 5 and 6 are both needed. I think rewards post lvl20 should be added (start the rewards over) but not so much the special rewards for being loyal for a long time. Why should the game reward players that stay loyal to a faction if staying loyal to a faction doesn't help make games nor balance population? Don't need to punish them for being loyal, but don't need to reward them either.

I agree with everything you said in principle. I guess the difference is I don’t think faction should be an obstacle to getting games as per my match maker explanation above. I also see Loyalist as being disadvantaged under the current reward system by not faction hopping, hence point 5 to try and compensate for this. Obviously it depends on the loyalty reward system. If you had a LP currency instead, faction hopping would give no real bonus over staying put so no compensation required.

Anyway it seems we agree on the basics.

Edited by SeventhSL, 29 May 2019 - 05:40 PM.

[SilentScreamer]

SeventhSL, on 29 May 2019 - 04:20 PM, said:

I think we have loyalist desires locked down pretty well now. To summarise in order of priority:

1. Loyalists want to be able to choose any faction not just those in the current event.
2. Want to fight under their chosen faction’s banner which will display as their forum profile etc.
3. Do not want to be excluded from fighting in any event.
4. Want to be able to change faction easily just in case of the unforeseen.
5. Would like a reward for being long term loyalist that is not available to those who swap factions often.
6. Would like the “level 20 what then” issue solved.

As I read it, Paul’s last suggestion ticks off all but point 6 which has been a community wishlist item for a long time now.

I believe the other concerns, like getting games, premades avoiding each other and population balance, are really related to match maker so I’m ready to start the discussion about match maker and those topics.

Strongly disagree with #4. Loyalists should not be popping in and out; Freelancers and Mercenary Units exist to allow players to ignore or easily swap between factions.

Keep Loyalists loyal by:
- allowing everyone to play in conflicts regardless of career and faction
- equal rewards based on in-match performance, regardless of career and faction
- switching faction play to a currency based reward system so player will not have to join several factions as a Loyalist then quit for another faction after earning a few easy mechbays.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 29 May 2019 - 07:13 PM.

[SeventhSL]

SilentScreamer, on 29 May 2019 - 06:53 PM, said:

Strongly disagree with #4. Loyalists should not be popping in and out; Freelancers and Mercenary Units exist to allow players to ignore or easily swap between factions.

Keep Loyalists loyal by:
- allowing everyone to play in conflicts regardless of career and faction
- equal rewards based on in-match performance, regardless of career and faction
- switching faction play to a currency based reward system so player will not have to join several factions as a Loyalist then quit for another faction after earning a few easy mechbays.

Absolutely agree. Loyalists should not just be popping in and out. Nor should they have to, or be disadvantaged by not doing so. Personally I’d happily pledge permanent and unchangable loyalty to Ghost Bears BUT being able to change is for two reasons:

1. Allows new players time to settle into a faction.
2. Allows long timers to change if their unit dissolves or similar.

I’d also add that I don’t think Mercs should Faction hop either. You join Merc faction you should be a Merc with LP rewards and profile picts etc to show that. Mercs should not pretend to be [insert any other faction here] as they do now. THIS DOES NOT PREVENT THEM FROM PLAYING WITH OR AGAINST IS OR CLAN. That’s an important distinction.

[dario03]

SeventhSL, on 29 May 2019 - 05:38 PM, said:

I agree with everything you said in principle. I guess the difference is I don’t think faction should be an obstacle to getting games as per my match maker explanation above. I also see Loyalist as being disadvantaged under the current reward system by not faction hopping, hence point 5 to try and compensate for this. Obviously it depends on the loyalty reward system. If you had a LP currency instead, faction hopping would give no real bonus over staying put so no compensation required.

Anyway it seems we agree on the basics.

I don't think faction should be an obstacle for getting a game either. Only time I would is if we had some specific faction vs faction stuff but I think the main mode should always include everyone. So maybe there should be times that are IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan, but there should always be a Clan vs IS running. Game population makes that a bit harder though so I wouldn't focus on that much or just do it for events.

And yeah for rewards I would either let everybody keep going through the faction level ups and get rewards over. So you could hit lvl20 over and over in a single faction. Or just merge all faction rewards into a single FP rank so instead of leveling up individual factions you would just level up the FP no matter what faction you are in. And be able to rank that up over again too.

Edited by dario03, 29 May 2019 - 07:41 PM.

[BaronDeath]

After reading every single post on this now 13 page forum thread, I see a lot of suggestions that still treat the symptom and does not address the cure. Removing permanent Loyalty in an attempt to create faster queues and more matches (by giving everyone any option at any time funneled into a false dilemma) was treating the symptom of the actual problem: general population dedication to this game for the long haul. Paul you have good suggestions to reinstate this; keep the course and Loyalty will breed Loyalty to the game for a number of reasons.

BROARL had one bullet point many may have overlooked that I have asked for once before, that may be easily brushed aside, but would have a massive impact on dedication to FW and general population dedication from top to bottom in a Unit. As a permanent Loyalist Unit leader I realized one day it would be a most excellent way to increase the population of this game and to solve FW queue problems and solve the problem of Loyalists "getting the shaft for being loyal" and it would help new players get into FW faster with more effectiveness and give the level 20 Loyalist Unit leader something he/she desires more than anything:

BROARL said, "may i spend unit coffers to put mechs in a unit hangar for new guys to use instead of trial mechs?" He is spot on. When I suggested this months back, I did indeed realize we want people to buy mechs and fund the game and this could be limited; set a limit per a certain time period. And also, only Level 20 Loyalist leaders can give this out (to incite more to stick it out to 20th level and keep their Units going and and hence building more units with more unit members and have more population, and no more LPs would be desired after that, but to have that ability to keep building their Units. This would breed Unit creation unlike ever before and create MASSIVE units so we could have multiple types of fights going reflecting the true Inner Sphere onslaught everwhere. PGI's biggest problem would be getting more servers. Those who just can't spend money on the game won't be doing it anyway, so this is mutually exclusive. We witnessed so many fall away because they could not keep up with the meta changing and maintaining so many drop decks, or they disagreed with the direction of the Unit on what mechs needed to be taken into battle to fit the strats the Unit was working on. At least let a Unit give 1 drop deck to a pilot. In a Loyalist Unit, the offset (without the stakeholders freaking out about mech sales) would come because pilots want to help each other, so they will have to participate more to do so and newer pilots can get a boost to keep them in moving along and play more and keep up a little better. It would increase their Loyalty (YES, more more Loyalty!).

I daresay, this one simple programming change that would probably take less than a few days would solve the following:

1. General Population - it would make Loyalists more Loyal to their Unit and the game and take away the perceived punishments Loyalists get for being Loyal because the desire of a Loyalist Unit owner is to see their Unit grow, become effective and maintain that Loyalty and Unit members want to see that also.

2. It solves the level 20 "carrot" for those starting, investing in and building their Units.

3. It would allow them to attract more pilots faster and get bigger numbers dropping in FW.

4. It is the ultimate reward for a Loyalist Unit - to propagate and expand their vision and ethos through numeric growth.

5. It offsets the "oops I made a mistake, not sure why I clicked that Loyalty button!" -- "Wow, this Loyalist Unit gave me the c-bills needed to get a Drop Deck together faster!"

6. This would swell Loyalist Units and create more opportunities because of more battles and create more MERC/Freelancer opportunities for more fights and less queue times.

7. And again, limit it to maybe only 1 Drop Deck c-bill only mechs and a c-bill limit can be done only once per pilot. People who have the money and believe in the game will always spend money on New and/or Champion mechs, etc. It would not hurt sales.

8. It would make Unit growth viral. We have had a number of small groups of friends join. This would pull more friendships into Units for FW.

In addition, make the amount for bringing in a new Unit member fixed, say, 5 million c-bills, and not for that to increase as Unit size increases to be counterproductive to building massive Units.

I love this game. I appreciate PGI immensely and your efforts Paul. This has been an experience of a lifetime for me. Again, thinking about the underlying issue of an active, healthy and motivated population and what makes Loyalty truly effective at solving these problems.

Edited by BaronDeath, 29 May 2019 - 08:09 PM.

[BaronDeath]

Paul, also, I wanted to thank you for pulling the data on the current patch iteration on the practically 50/50 split on who picks what. This is easily explainable because everyone that loves FW and PGI want to help legitimize this decision or see how it works, and I personally only picked the current Faction because I would shoot off 1 Black Cat mortar for every member in my Unit on the USA's 4th of July. Two years ago this cost me 1K. I need to dig up the videos and post here also. But I am confident that other Loyalist Units on the IS/Clan side have similar depths of experience to reflect their over all commitment and passion for the banner they love. I know, pilots that just want to blow up mechs don't think this way, and that's ok because that is what perpetuates the Inner Sphere conflict!

Can you pull the data on the last 2 years of how many that engaged in FW were Loyalists cf. to Merc/Freelancers? If we can see that, I bet we can refine solutions even bette, however, I have screen shots of the Leaderboards and have a pretty good idea but not at the scientific level. Perception is reality and I recall the actual first 2 pilots a year or so ago that exclaimed during a match that Loyalist Units were killing queues and I thought, "Are you crazy? The general population is the issue." Perception is indeed reality, and the data will help dispel false perceptions and let us truly focus. I write very complex SQL for Middle Market companies if PGI needs help and I will donate my time for free for data mining.

Edited by BaronDeath, 30 May 2019 - 12:57 AM.

[Appogee]

Paul Inouye, on 28 May 2019 - 03:37 PM, said:

I'm not saying addressing the queue and match maker is off the table.. just that this is about the Loyalist Role/Activity in FP.

Mate, the patient is in cardiac arrest on the table, and you want to keep discussing his hang nail.

Please, do something now to address the main issue of the imbalanced queue. Let us change faction to create matches.

Edited by Appogee, 30 May 2019 - 05:14 AM.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

A month ago I was freely ranking up my favorite Faction, using my favorite mechs, earning 100% loyalty for it, and I had months of ranking to go...

Today it's IS vs IS and I can't select my favorite Faction, can't bring my favorite mechs to FP, and I haven't been allowed to rank up my favorite Faction once since that damn patch, all for the sake of introducing a story I'M NOT EVEN READING.

And the fix being suggested here is to allow me to earn up to 60% (but mostly 0%) of the 100% loyalty I was freely earning using any Faction/Mech I wanted before the patch...

Well that's nothing short of a bad fix, for an incredibly bad patch.

[MischiefSC]

Appogee, on 30 May 2019 - 01:11 AM, said:

Mate, the patient is in cardiac arrest on the table, and you want to keep discussing his hang nail.

Please, do something now to address the main issue of the imbalanced queue. Let us change faction to create matches.

Having this thread going on this topic has 0 impact in any way what so ever on PGI addressing that or any other issue.

[Nightbird]

MischiefSC, on 30 May 2019 - 06:56 PM, said:

Having this thread going on this topic has 0 impact in any way what so ever on PGI addressing that or any other issue.

I don't know, I'm pretty sure we've gotten through to Paul that permanent contracts even for as short as one event is bad for the queue.

[Monkey Lover]

Nightbird, on 30 May 2019 - 08:02 PM, said:

I don't know, I'm pretty sure we've gotten through to Paul that permanent contracts even for as short as one event is bad for the queue.

Only thing I have see is some people want every loyalist reward for every faction. Permanent contract on someone who wouldnt play the other side anyway wouldnt change anything.
There has always been more mercs let them flip sides ever match. Loyalist should be locked up tight with a mc cost to break.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 30 May 2019 - 08:27 PM.

[50 50]

Nightbird, on 30 May 2019 - 08:02 PM, said:

I don't know, I'm pretty sure we've gotten through to Paul that permanent contracts even for as short as one event is bad for the queue.

I'm not against permanent contracts for loyalty and maybe the Trial period is sufficient in terms of giving players a chance to rethink their decision.
At this stage though I would like to understand the rational behind putting in development time to shift that loyalty to the player account from the functionality that was there on the units.
I suspect that it is more to do with a player wanting to maintain their loyalty to a faction when the unit decides to move because of how that affects the individual players within the unit.
A situation that has arisen more as the rules on loyalty have been relaxed/removed.
And this has come about because players are finding that in order to get a game in faction play, they often do not have enough opponents on the other side and therefore feel they are forced to swap just to get matches.
Which is a problem created by forcing factions into opposite sides (Clan and IS being the big example) of a border.

So at the moment it's trying to find a solution to an earlier solution for an earlier solution to a problem.
As I see it, the problem is the restrictions created by the borders which prevents players in one faction from fighting players in another faction.

Remove the borders and we remove that restriction.
We only need enough players in one single faction and enough players in any other single faction to be able to get matches.
Loyalists win out because they are always fighting for their faction.
Units win out because at any given time they are either contracted to or are loyal to one faction at a time.
Being part of a unit should mean it is a lot easier to get a full team together.
I would suggest that even with the reduced population it would be highly unusual to only have players online in the mode from a single faction which would be the only scenario where we couldn't get a game, given mercenary and freelancer participation as well.

The events should then be encouraging more players from 2 of the 13 factions to increase their participation for the duration rewarding those players for any victory they get against any opponent, more if they face off against each other.
That way it is not restrictive.

Add to that a way to then give players a vote for an alliance for the event? Starts to get into some interesting player controlled options that might resemble space nerd politics.....

As for the rewards themselves, it needs to be self sustaining. Any level based system means we eventually hit the top and there is no where to turn.
We would be better served being able to unlock the ability to convert our loyalty points to MC after attaining certain rank. This creates the desire to play more to earn those points back.
Offset this with something like having more voting power at higher ranks so it ties in with something like voting on alliances in the events and you have to weigh up spending those points or saving them to have more influence.

[shaytalis]

Monkey Lover, on 30 May 2019 - 08:26 PM, said:

Only thing I have see is some people want every loyalist reward for every faction. Permanent contract on someone who wouldnt play the other side anyway wouldnt change anything.
There has always been more mercs let them flip sides ever match. Loyalist should be locked up tight with a mc cost to break.

I cant' keep re-quoting it but there have been several suggestions for how to allow Loyalists to earn LP most of the time and for Mercs to be able to switch sides if they prefer. And we'll probably have more once we have a thread dedicated the the matchmaker topic too.

Edited by shaytalis, 30 May 2019 - 08:50 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

shaytalis, on 30 May 2019 - 08:50 PM, said:

I cant' keep re-quoting it but there have been several suggestions for how to allow Loyalists to earn LP most of the time and for Mercs to be able to switch sides if they prefer. And we'll probably have more once we have a thread dedicated the the matchmaker topic too.

Few more threads, few xml edits, then some testing, few more threads again, were looking at a year. No updates for a year they can just remove teams and put in the pug cw q button.
.

At this point i just want my faction back for group q.

[Appogee]

MischiefSC, on 30 May 2019 - 06:56 PM, said:

Having this thread going on this topic has 0 impact in any way what so ever on PGI addressing that or any other issue.

Not true. Every minute Paul spends on this inconsequential issue is a minute he - and everyone else at PGI - isn't spending on fixing the things that actually matter.

Edited by Appogee, 30 May 2019 - 10:27 PM.

[shaytalis]

Appogee, on 30 May 2019 - 10:14 PM, said:

Not true. Every minute Paul spends on this inconsequential issue is a minute he - and everyone else at PGI - isn't spending on fixing the things that actually matter.

Having a fun game is definitely a "thing that actually matters." Also derailing this thread is wasting time and creating fatigue for the community. We want to talk about matchmaking also, and we even have been doing so in this thread insomuch as it applies to Loyalty stuff. Folks are actively trying to come up with Loyalty solutions which keep matchmaking queue times in mind.

Fast queues will not help if the game isn't fun. A fun game with slow queues wont help either. We need both. And having one topic per thread makes sense.

Queues like this are not any more helpful than unbalanced ones:

Edited by shaytalis, 30 May 2019 - 11:50 PM.