Loyalists In Faction Play - Design Discussion
#81
Posted 27 May 2019 - 07:55 AM
So before, there were split faction indicators on our profile pics if we're merc and have a contract with a certain faction (indicating us being a merc working for said faction). Instead of all this alliance malarky, is it impossible to implement a system that does the same for loyalists? I'd very much prefer it if it were possible. As in, say someone is loyal to Ghost Bear but has decided to drop on the Steiner side of a conflict, because they'd rather do that than side with Kurita, so their icon becomes top-left half Ghost Bear, bottom right half Steiner. And in this instance LP in the conflict would be split between GB and Steiner (with perhaps a slight penality, maybe instead of 50/50 it's 45/45) because the player is at least in theory putting themselves behind whichever side benefits their main faction more.
The other issue is population balancing so there are more FP drops where people would be happier were this the case. It'd be great if there was an option to queue "neutral" so they could drop on whichever side needed the players - could be an option for mercs and freelancers or alternatively could be called a "black drop", a covert op owing to the need of the player's faction to have complete deniability on the players choice to side with whomever. In this instance their icon could become the merc icon. Perhaps place a prerequisite on this in IS vs Clan in that there needs to be one valid drop deck available for each side before being able to queue that way.
#82
Posted 27 May 2019 - 08:55 AM
shaytalis, on 27 May 2019 - 07:27 AM, said:
[...]
Lastly, a new player is not going to make a good decision here that they want to live with forever. A new player is going to declare loyalty to a Faction that happens to be having a conflict the first time they look at FP and think "huh I wonder what this is like," and then find a Unit 3 months later which is not even an ally of that Faction. Or perhaps even worse, the new player will avoid playing FP at all because they are afraid of making the wrong choice (this was me).
There are actually several instances in lore of IS warriors becoming loyal to a Clan. There is Phelan Kell, who was captured by Vlad of the Wolves, and became the Khan of Clan Wolf. There was Ragnar Magnusson, the prince of the FRR, who was captured by the wolves, then later captured by the Ghost Bears, and stayed loyal to them even when the FRR declared him prince in absentia, and he also became saKhan of Clan Ghost Bear. Much of the Eridani Light Horse was absorbed into Clan Goliath Scorpion. Etc.
That last point is one of the biggest reasons I see to allow loyalty swapping. A true loyalist won't switch, but a new player is going to make mistakes, etc. We want to account for that.
SoulRcannon, on 27 May 2019 - 07:55 AM, said:
So before, there were split faction indicators on our profile pics if we're merc and have a contract with a certain faction (indicating us being a merc working for said faction). Instead of all this alliance malarky, is it impossible to implement a system that does the same for loyalists? I'd very much prefer it if it were possible. As in, say someone is loyal to Ghost Bear but has decided to drop on the Steiner side of a conflict, because they'd rather do that than side with Kurita, so their icon becomes top-left half Ghost Bear, bottom right half Steiner. And in this instance LP in the conflict would be split between GB and Steiner (with perhaps a slight penality, maybe instead of 50/50 it's 45/45) because the player is at least in theory putting themselves behind whichever side benefits their main faction more.
The other issue is population balancing so there are more FP drops where people would be happier were this the case. It'd be great if there was an option to queue "neutral" so they could drop on whichever side needed the players - could be an option for mercs and freelancers or alternatively could be called a "black drop", a covert op owing to the need of the player's faction to have complete deniability on the players choice to side with whomever. In this instance their icon could become the merc icon. Perhaps place a prerequisite on this in IS vs Clan in that there needs to be one valid drop deck available for each side before being able to queue that way.
The way for people to switch to balance queues is to be merc. If you want to be loyal to a faction and still have the option to switch to balance the queue, you would just be a loyal merc, and honestly that is the way most of the big name merc units in lore were. But if you want to be able to switch to balance the queue then you are not loyalist. Having a punishment for switching sides is a good way to make people realize that if they want to do that, then the loyalist option is not for them. My suggestion was bonus LP gains as you maintain loyalty that you would lose on switching, combined with a 5-10mil cbill penalty for leaving. (I detail this in my post on page 2)
As a loyalist, I really really don't like the idea of the split icon. Even if I happen to be fighting for someone else, I am 100% a Ghost Bear, and I don't want anyone else's emblem showing up on mine. I much prefer the alliance system, and it is honestly quite similar to what I have been suggesting for a long time.
I do like your idea of a black drop, but rather than having a merc icon, maybe it just turns blank in-game. I think there is a lot of stuff to work out for that to work, but it is a promising idea.
#83
Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:02 AM
-Spectre, on 27 May 2019 - 08:55 AM, said:
What might work is to allow someone to gain LP in any factions they want to up to a certain point, but then when you want to go for Star Captain (picking a rank at random here) you have to declare Loyalty to that faction first. This way a new player will have sufficient time to play FP before they make a commitment to one faction. It's not "pure" but it's perhaps an acceptable compromise.
#84
Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:17 AM
#85
Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:22 AM
-Spectre, on 27 May 2019 - 09:17 AM, said:
I'm having some trouble reading it because so much of it is quotes without quote tags around it. It might be helpful to update it like that or to at least make the quotes spoiler-tagged? I did read the bullet points.
EDIT: Having read that section, my issue is that I want to avoid encouraging people not to play as much as possible. I think it's okay to reward someone for choosing to be loyal to a single faction, but we need a better spread of grey area coverage all with their own rewards. What I've suggested is four different tiers at the Unit level:
1) Total Merc (no LP, major C-Bill bonus)
2) IS/Clan Loyal Merc (minor Faction LP, moderate C-bill bonus)
3) Alliance Loyal Merc (moderate Faction LP, minor C-bill bonus)
4) Total Loyalist (major Faction LP, exclusive Faction perks, no C-bill bonus)
What might work well, fleshing this out more:
1) As a Total Merc: Earn LP up to a minor level (5) for any Faction you fight for. To go to a higher level, you must declare Loyalty to either IS or Clan. While remaining a Merc, you get a major C-Bill bonus because you can sell to the highest bidder. LP is earned at the slowest rate.
2) As an IS/Clan Loyal Merc: Earn LP up to a moderate level (10) for any Faction you fight for, but you are restricted to fighting for IS / Clan. To go to a higher level, you must declare Loyalty to a Faction and its Allies. While remaining an IS/Clan Loyal Merc, you get a moderate C-Bill bonus. LP is earned at a moderate rate.
3) As an Alliance Loyal Merc: Earn LP up to a major level (15) for your Faction, but you are restricted to fighting for your Faction and its current Allies. To go to a higher level, you must declare Total Loyalty to a Faction. While remaining an Alliance Loyal Merc, you get a minor C-Bill bonus. LP is earned at a fast rate.
4) As a Total Loyalist: Earn LP up to a max level (20) for your Faction, but you are restricted to fighting for your Faction. When you reach that cap, you become eligible for Galaxy Commander III (or Khan, etc.) on a seasonal rotation based upon your activity during the season. LP is earned at the fastest rate.
I'm not sure how I feel about "tiering down", for instance dropping Jade Falcon Faction Loyalist and going back down to Total Merc. But it feels like, if we allow this, you should lose the LP you accumulated up to that level.
Example:
You level up LP as a Merc to lvl 5, then declare loyalty to Clan.
You level up LP as a Clan Loyal Merc to lvl 8, then decide you really want to be Jade Falcon. You become a Jade Falcon Alliance Loyal Merc.
You level up LP as to lvl 15, hitting the cap for someone who isn't purely Jade Falcon Loyalist. You decide you actually prefer Clan Wolf. You drop back down to Clan Loyal Merc, lvl 10.
Now a Clan Loyal Merc lvl 10, you commit to Wolf Alliance Loyal Merc.
You level up LP to lvl 15, then decide you want to be a Wolf Loyalist. You go to tier 4.
You level up LP to lvl 20 , are the most active Wolf clan member, and become the Khan of Clan Wolf. You decide Jade Falcon is right for you afterall. You drop to Clan Loyal Merc, lvl 10.
Now a Clan Loyal Merc lvl 10, you re-commit to Jade Falcon. You now have to level up again from lvl 10 in Jade Falcon--your lvl 15 that you previously threw away is not grandfathered. You also do not regain any of achievement rewards for lvl 11, 12, 13, 14, or 15--those achievements are already acquired and can't be obtained a second time for the same Faction.
You level up LP to lvl 20 , are the most active Jade Falcon clan member, and become the Khan of Jade Falcon. You are a person of legend who managed to climb up to the top of two different clans. We weren't even sure that was possible.
Three days later you decide that Clan isn't for you because you love Stealth mechs, and you drop back down to Total Merc, lvl 5.
etc. etc.
Again, I am very not sure how I feel about this dynamic of dropping Loyalty, but at the very least I don't think you should be able to be Khan of two different Clans simultaneously etc.
Edited by shaytalis, 27 May 2019 - 09:59 AM.
#86
Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:49 AM
Also, nothing like making that many quote tags to help you realize how weird the word quote looks
#87
Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:54 AM
sorry to say this but I am a loyalist for the wolf since over 30 years from the tabletop over many comnputer games and I don't want to change this. I think the most who have read the books want to fight for a house, a regiment or a clan.
This with the points is fine, I am not in a regiment because there is some benefit, because I play with friends as unit, spend time on the battlefield and make an effort for the clan, I like to see when the wolfes reach greater terretories and try to be more if we lose planets.
Be member in a war that goes on and on.
A.
#88
Posted 27 May 2019 - 10:30 AM
#89
Posted 27 May 2019 - 10:34 AM
Paul Inouye, on 27 May 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:
I'm sad for my lack of name drop. XD (Me and -Specter are voiping about this right now lol)
Edited by shaytalis, 27 May 2019 - 10:34 AM.
#90
Posted 27 May 2019 - 10:43 AM
shaytalis, on 27 May 2019 - 10:34 AM, said:
Well if -specter didn't make such a big post I could make it past there to get to yours!
MischiefSC did one in the other post as well.
That being said.. size doesn't matter as long as it's part of the conversation. (stop... grow up! )
#91
Posted 27 May 2019 - 10:47 AM
When I started with Community Warfare, I picked the Lyran Commonwealth. Why? Because I bought the Steiner / Lyran Commonwealth book back in 1987. http://www.sarna.net...n_Commonwealth)
So I did a bunch of CW as Steiner, got up to rank 13 if I recall, then met up with some people on the Steiner Teamspeak hub, and eventually decided to join their unit. They were technically Mercenary, but 100% always took Steiner contracts, so that was ok by me. So I went with Mercenary / Steiner for quite a while. Eventually, two things happened right about the same time - the unit I was in effectively disbanded, and I maxed out the Mercenary reward progression at rank 10. So I left the unit and went back to being a Steiner loyalist. Yay, back home. Eventually, I reached Steiner rank 20, back in December. So now what?
Well, I still planned on fighting exclusively as IS. And unfortunately, for the current state of the game (or at least current before the most recent patch), it doesn't really matter which IS side I'm on. Several years ago, it did matter - being Steiner meant I always fought against the Jade Falcons, and was actively helping stop them from taking over space. It actually mattered to the map which faction I was on. But with the "one bucket" implementation, as long as I was any IS faction, it was the same. So I signed up for FRR loyalist. I mean, may as well start up on another set of ranks and get free stuff for playing. It takes a long time, but at least you get a free set of 2500 MCs at rank 20.
So the only reason I'm not Steiner right now is the fact that after rank 20, there was no real reason not to go over to another IS faction.
1) I can't get any more Steiner rewards after rank 20
2) No matter what IS faction I choose, it does not change the map one way or another. As long as I am still IS they all do exactly the same thing.
If you changed either one of those things (and I really really really hope both are changed), I would be back in Steiner in a heartbeat, and I would never ever leave.
On a semi-related note - while there are some people who play faction and "just want to get games", I absolutely do not understand such people. And heck, I play with them nightly.
But for me, at the end of the say I just want to conquer the galaxy. Literally. I want every single planet on the map to be Steiner blue. I don't care if it takes 10 years to do it. I don't care if I have to Ghost Drop a thousand times in a row to do it. If that is what it takes, that's what I will do. I do not mind one bit.
In any case, I don't think I'm the only person out there that has the above experience / views, and I would love to see them accommodated as well.
Figuring out how much loyalty points everyone gets at certain times is all well and good, but I really think it's kind of moot without doing some sort of rework to the ranks, and / or what happens when you max out the ranks.
#92
Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:09 AM
- Let Loyalists run the Faction Insignia they want.
- Pre-select the sides of a conflict each faction fights on (doesn't have to be a giant meta faction)
- Give them rewards as normal.
Edited by Geg, 27 May 2019 - 11:13 AM.
#93
Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:23 AM
-Spectre, on 27 May 2019 - 08:55 AM, said:
The way for people to switch to balance queues is to be merc. If you want to be loyal to a faction and still have the option to switch to balance the queue, you would just be a loyal merc, and honestly that is the way most of the big name merc units in lore were. But if you want to be able to switch to balance the queue then you are not loyalist. Having a punishment for switching sides is a good way to make people realize that if they want to do that, then the loyalist option is not for them. My suggestion was bonus LP gains as you maintain loyalty that you would lose on switching, combined with a 5-10mil cbill penalty for leaving. (I detail this in my post on page 2)
As a loyalist, I really really don't like the idea of the split icon. Even if I happen to be fighting for someone else, I am 100% a Ghost Bear, and I don't want anyone else's emblem showing up on mine. I much prefer the alliance system, and it is honestly quite similar to what I have been suggesting for a long time.
I do like your idea of a black drop, but rather than having a merc icon, maybe it just turns blank in-game. I think there is a lot of stuff to work out for that to work, but it is a promising idea.
I agree with you on quite a bit here. Mercs should be able to switch during a conflict, I guess the less punitive proposed cost for doing so to balance a queue would be one of the perks of being a merc.
But one thing I feel I must point out is that I don't see the point of an alliance system where the framework is already in place for picking a side at the start of a conflict. If you don't want your emblem to change on the forums or wherever once you pick a side because you're loyal to a faction that's totally fine, it was just an idea (and one that was just a thought on something that'd be temporary during a conflict anyway). I think however during a faction play match it'd be very confusing to see that Ghost Bear symbol (among every other loyalists symbol) going by my example on either side during a Steiner vs Kurita event during the drop. So perhaps just blanking it out like you suggested with the "black drop" idea or going with the merc logo ONLY during a FP drop in-game would tidy things up.
My perspective is that implementing something that'd use most of what's already there (so it can be applied quickly) and make it so that more FP games can be played within a window of time is the optimal route to look for here. Some of these suggestions add unnecessary complexity which would keep us from an enjoyable mode for longer, it's not my intention to put out something that'd complicate things.
That said, I appreciate what you said about the neutral "black drop" idea. On top of being a potential mechanic that would help balance queues by itself, just being able to group up with your friends click an extra button or two and just play in FP with its complexities and strategy would make it a more fun prospect for everyone IMO. Moar drops for everyone! However, I don't think it shouldn't come at a "cost". It'd be more of an opportunity cost in that the bonus is just being able to drop with your friends ASAP; there'd be no loyalty point handouts for such groups, and no cbill bonuses like the mercs may get. But at the end of the day, this is just another idea
#94
Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:31 AM
1) Freelancer becomes "Mercenary Freelancer", gets major C-Bill bonus (and if we want, minor XP bonus remains) but no LP earnings
2) Mercenary becomes "Mercenary Contractor", gets moderate C-Bill bonus and moderate LP earnings
3) Loyalist gets no C-Bill bonus and major LP earnings (no changes)
This would shift the biggest C-Bill bonus to Freelancer, keep the biggest LP bonus to Loyalist, and allow Mercenary Contract to earn LP and C-Bills at reduced rates. This makes more sense to me because the difference between Freelancer and Mercenary in the description / in practice is whether or not they are loyal to a particular side during the conflict. It makes sense for the "Mercenary Freelancer" to get the biggest money by leaving their options open. It makes sense for the "Mercenary Contractor" to earn both C-BIlls and LP for maintaining a tenuous alliance during the conflict (but then limiting their ability to ditch to the winning side for a bribe later on).
This is something I would say doesn't fix all the problems, but would perhaps help in the short term with filling queues.
Edited by shaytalis, 27 May 2019 - 11:42 AM.
#95
Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:31 AM
I know PGI has a lot on your plate, so do you have the resources to make all this happen. Because it seems to me if your did we might not be in this mess..
So
How long will the projected FP changes take.
#96
Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:33 AM
SoulRcannon, on 27 May 2019 - 11:23 AM, said:
I agree with you on quite a bit here. Mercs should be able to switch during a conflict, I guess the less punitive proposed cost for doing so to balance a queue would be one of the perks of being a merc.
But one thing I feel I must point out is that I don't see the point of an alliance system where the framework is already in place for picking a side at the start of a conflict. If you don't want your emblem to change on the forums or wherever once you pick a side because you're loyal to a faction that's totally fine, it was just an idea (and one that was just a thought on something that'd be temporary during a conflict anyway). I think however during a faction play match it'd be very confusing to see that Ghost Bear symbol (among every other loyalists symbol) going by my example on either side during a Steiner vs Kurita event during the drop. So perhaps just blanking it out like you suggested with the "black drop" idea or going with the merc logo ONLY during a FP drop in-game would tidy things up.
My perspective is that implementing something that'd use most of what's already there (so it can be applied quickly) and make it so that more FP games can be played within a window of time is the optimal route to look for here. Some of these suggestions add unnecessary complexity which would keep us from an enjoyable mode for longer, it's not my intention to put out something that'd complicate things.
That said, I appreciate what you said about the neutral "black drop" idea. On top of being a potential mechanic that would help balance queues by itself, just being able to group up with your friends click an extra button or two and just play in FP with its complexities and strategy would make it a more fun prospect for everyone IMO. Moar drops for everyone! However, I don't think it shouldn't come at a "cost". It'd be more of an opportunity cost in that the bonus is just being able to drop with your friends ASAP; there'd be no loyalty point handouts for such groups, and no cbill bonuses like the mercs may get. But at the end of the day, this is just another idea
Yes, I would much prefer a blank logo to a mixed logo, for the actual drop, but perhaps specifically for a clanner in an IS v IS conflict, or an IS in a Clan v Clan conflict, it could be a mixed logo. I would be ok with that. That way it is still clear that I am Ghost Bear (since there is no other way I would have that in the logo for an IS v IS conflict, but it would also clear up any confusion as to why I am there in the first place.
I definitely agree that something easy to implement is good, and I have tried to make my suggestions easy to implement without compromising on their functionality.
What you said about the black drop idea there I think is definitely how it should work.
#97
Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:39 AM
Harper Steel, on 27 May 2019 - 11:31 AM, said:
I know PGI has a lot on your plate, so do you have the resources to make all this happen. Because it seems to me if your did we might not be in this mess..
So
How long will the projected FP changes take.
I think they're still working out what the changes should be based upon the feedback here, so we probably wont have timelines yet. But what might be good is to present some options with expected time costs? Like:
1) Here's the perfect thing we can do, it would take 6 months.
2) Here's a less perfect thing we can do, it would take 4 months.
etc. But maybe later on down the line if they wouldn't mind to present options.
#98
Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:40 AM
I like the overall plan you have presented, and I think it has promise. Hopefully the dev groups won't crush the dream.
Feedback:
1.1 - Thank you. This might seem small, but its a huge deal to some of us who are dedicated to a faction - like RPTG.
1.2 - One thing that sticks out to me is a possible issue for any new blood or people who change units. If a new player decides to jump in as FRR, but later realizes that they want to play with a unit that runs CSJ, then what? Are they screwed? Same theory with someone who runs with a dedicated unit, and for whatever reason ends up moving along. Are they only limited to units who have his current faction?
2 - Cool. Sounds good.
3 - This sounds like fun to me. Anxious to see it implemented. I would also like to note that it was very cool to see the comment about making sure CJF can face off against CW. It gives me the impression that PGI is trying to make sure the little nuances are being thought about - even if some of them dont make it off the whiteboard.
4.1 - See 1.2 response. Perhaps allowing a switch for those newer players, or in situations where a player is moving to a new units. A penalty would make sense to show how big of a deal it is, but I would think we need to have something in place that allows a switch when it is appropriate.
This thread has been linked to everyone in RPTG, and I hope the constructive feedback keeps coming.
#99
Posted 27 May 2019 - 01:09 PM
As contracts are now individual, rather than by unit, go with this.
(for simplicity sake, let's say you can earn up to 100 LP and/or 100 Cbills per FW match to easily illustrate ratio of earnings)
Loyalists earn 100 LP when fighting for their chosen faction.
When they fight for another faction they earn 50 LP and 50 Cbills.
When they fight against their chosen loyalty, they earn 100 CBills.
Also: no one can lose LP anymore.
This way, loyalists earn loyalty when fighting for their faction, and some when they're assigned to help another faction, but don't earn any loyalty points when the go black ops and fight against their own (100 Cbills is their 30 silver coins), which allows players to still earn rewards while playing with others in their unit/friends who have chosen to fight for a faction different from theirs, or even against their own.
Personal story to back up proposal:
The Devil Dogs, originally designed to be a pseudo Wolf's Dragoons clone with clan mechs and lore fighting for Steiner were torn apart when we couldn't use our clan mechs in the introduction of CW. This would allow my guys to earn loyalty points for whatever faction they wanted, and still play together and not be penalized if the scenario is say Wolf vs. Steiner (the two most popular factions in my unit). It just means that if you CHOOSE to fight against the nation you are loyal to, you don't earn loyalty, you have simply made the Devil's bargain, painted out the symbols on your mech, and made some money fighting against your nation. There will still be guys who won't say, fight against this or that faction, but they won't feel a need to leave the unit to form a one man unit to take contracts according to their conscience.
Further suggestions regarding faction rewards:
I would then suggest that there be some cool rewards for being a loyalist or ranked merc. Your rank within your currently active loyalty gets you access to a unique set of faction specific mechs and/or consumables that make your faction unique and/or something to show off when you hit the field. These perks disappear if you pledge for a different faction. (They are unlocked in the mechlab, and you can use them in all game modes, but you can only use them when you are declaring loyalty to that particular faction, or in private lobbies.)
Example: If there are 20 levels of loyalty, every 5 levels you gain access to variant mech based around the lore of the faction and this mech would have idealized loadouts or extra hardpoint options.
Example: To celebrate Liao's pioneering of electronics suites in the IS, Liao players gain access to a single piece of non-hardpoint locked gear that acts as an ECM suite they can put on any mech.
Example: To reward you for your service to House Steiner, you have earned a completely customized Atlas. This atlas has all hardpoint options available to every variant of atlas. (the Boars Head energy points, DDC's ECM, K's extra AMS, S's missile slots, etc... Art is already done, just unlocked more options for that REALLY loyal player who's dropped a billion times as a Steiner player since closed beta)
Example: Jade Falcon player has been selected to test a prototype Summoner. In an attempt to make the summoner a more viable chassis, this chassis has it's engine, internals, jump jets and armor types unlocked. No additional animation is needed. Just unlocking of parts (easy enough in my imagination, at least!).
Players can use these perks as long as they are loyalists with their faction and have the rank. The options are grayed out when they have chosen a different faction to rank up in, go freelance, or merc.
Would there be a little imbalance added to the game? Yeah, a bit, but ANY player who puts the time in can earn the stuff in game. And let's face it: anyone who's played this game as a loyalist from the beginning deserves it. This is coming from a dirty mercenary...
#100
Posted 27 May 2019 - 01:11 PM
It took you ages to implement simple rewards for capturing planets yet didn't fix the issue that was needing to basically farm wins in order to get MC for winning a planet. So those sorts of things got exploited by large units like MS, but in reality did not fix the long term retention issues because numbers always mattered.
The zero depth of scope when it comes to rewards for FP, and aside from a C-Bill farm, you get nothing tangible out of it as a unit unless you have enough players to win the planet. It's funny, competitive leagues like Marik Civil War had a better depth of scope than what PGI has done for CW in the last 5 years.
[Redacted]
Edited by Tina Benoit, 27 May 2019 - 03:18 PM.
nonconstructive/insults/staff abuse
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