163 replies to this topic

[a frying pan to the CT]

You guys really seem to be trying to iterate and improve on FP, and the KDK buff should mollify some old arguments against you guys thrown around on Reddit. I for one appreciate your effort. Long ttk, movie mode after you die in game, and the old ccg brought to life for me. MW5 launch will be a cool day too, hopefully i will be skilled enough by then to contribute a little modding..

Atlas buff is cool.too.

[Bwah Ha Ha]

Time to start unloading anything with an ATM3 on it.

[GweNTLeR]

Nice overall changes actually. I'd reduce spread even more on lb5 since both is and clan version are clearly inferior to ac and uac.
ATMs got what they deserved.
Banshee(especially siren) buff is clearly welcome.

[Unjust Tyrant]

If I understand the change to ATMs, it's to try to push them more towards medium mechs and away from a supernova boating an obscene number, by requiring better mobility to get maximum damage. That's a noble goal.

This won't work because currently AMS is extremely effective against ATMs, even at sub 200m ranges. You can't mitigate AMS through positioning. You can't mitigate it with ECM. The only thing you can do is overwhelm it. Light and medium mechs cannot take sufficient ATMs to damage through AMS. You won't even know your target is shielded until a volley or two does zero damage and you hear the characteristic ratatat sound. I don't recommend that people boat huge numbers of ATMs or LRMs and try to overwhelm AMS, but I understand why that is pretty much how missiles are currently used.

It's a real shame because ATMs should be great weapons for medium mechs without sufficient missile hardpoints to boat SRMs. I used to run a SHC with ATM18 which was fun. It's now a waste of time.

I don't mind the range change. The damage buff to the long distance use was unnecessary. But ATMs used at short range need to perform a lot better against AMS before medium and light pilots can consider using them. I think either health or speed buffs at ranges under 270 might be the way to go. At long range, AMS should cripple missiles.

[GweNTLeR]

Unjust Tyrant, on 14 June 2019 - 09:32 PM, said:

stuff

If those 25 meters make SO much difference for you on SHC, I feel sorry for you.

[Unjust Tyrant]

GweNTLeR, on 14 June 2019 - 09:34 PM, said:

If those 25 meters make SO much difference for you on SHC, I feel sorry for you.

The distance makes none at all. It's the buff to AMS when LRMs were re-worked that killed ATMs on my SHC.

[The6thMessenger]

Lol that LBX and ATM changes. It's like changing something, not to achieve anything, but for the sake of change, Ironically wouldn't change anything.

ATM 25m range reduction is easy to adapt to, them bouncing Veagles would still nuke you either way.

And the ATM ER Range damage buff is just from 66.66% wasted damage, to 60% wasted damage, on a range that is so unlikely to work with even with LRMs which are already more efficient at said extreme range.

It's like PGI doesn't even know why people try not to use ATMs at ER Ranges. Whether it's 1 damage or 1.2 damage, it's dreadfully inefficient use of ATMs that we might as well get closer and use the 2-damage range, and even so that's still poor heat efficiency when compare to LRMs.

If you people want ATMs to be used at a long range do either 3/2/2 damage, 3/2.5/2 damage, or 2.4/2.0/1.6 damage without minimum range. So long as damage drops more than 50%, it's never going to be acceptable. It's not like a laser or PPC that you could just shoot all day so long you have available heat-cap.

Unjust Tyrant, on 14 June 2019 - 09:55 PM, said:

The distance makes none at all. It's the buff to AMS when LRMs were re-worked that killed ATMs on my SHC.

I'm sorry, how does that work? You do know that the longer the distance is, the less reaction the AMS gets to stop a volley?

So if it's 270m versus 245m, meaning if you want to use the 3-damage range, you would actually hit sooner and less chance for AMS to shoot all of you missiles. That being said, it only adjusts the damage, the AMS would still down the same amount of missiles as before that 25-meter nerf.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 14 June 2019 - 10:28 PM.

[Trennbull]

Overall good patch in the right direction - yes even the ATM changes.

However, what about the reported Server Selection bug? This annoys the hell out of me.

[kapusta11]

Can we fix Banshee's weapon mounts already? They were nerfed for no reason.

https://imgur.com/84eSKAZ

[General Solo]

My opinion on ATM's was I didnt fear them (they need a lock), nor did I think they were that great.
Situational
Against some their good, against others using cover and direct fire pokes not so good.

But the reduced 3 point window may make ATM's more niche.
Less accessible as a meta for pounding the casuals wot wid MM and all

[Unjust Tyrant]

The6thMessenger, on 14 June 2019 - 10:16 PM, said:

I'm sorry, how does that work? You do know that the longer the distance is, the less reaction the AMS gets to stop a volley?

So if it's 270m versus 245m, meaning if you want to use the 3-damage range, you would actually hit sooner and less chance for AMS to shoot all of you missiles. That being said, it only adjusts the damage, the AMS would still down the same amount of missiles as before that 25-meter nerf.

My post's point was that narrowing the max damage window to make ATMs more rewarding for mediums than heavies or assaults is a good idea, but won't ultimately make mediums more compelling for ATMs. This is because, since the LRM rework, ATMs have been too weak against AMS to run in the numbers that mediums can fit, even at very close range, where you correctly say AMS is less effective. They needed to look at this issue in tandem with the distance changes if they were intending to make ATMs a medium-friendly close range weapon.

There's a great video by BlackHawk SC that looks at how effective AMS is against different kinds of missiles since the AMS change. I recommend it. It illustrates the problem I reference pretty well.

[GweNTLeR]

Unjust Tyrant, on 14 June 2019 - 10:50 PM, said:

Spoiler

My post's point was that narrowing the max damage window to make ATMs more rewarding for mediums than heavies or assaults is a good idea, but won't ultimately make mediums more compelling for ATMs. This is because, since the LRM rework, ATMs have been too weak against AMS to run in the numbers that mediums can fit, even at very close range, where you correctly say AMS is less effective. They needed to look at this issue in tandem with the distance changes if they were intending to make ATMs a medium-friendly close range weapon.

There's a great video by BlackHawk SC that looks at how effective AMS is against different kinds of missiles since the AMS change. I recommend it. It illustrates the problem I reference pretty well.

Vapor eagle says hello.

[The6thMessenger]

Unjust Tyrant, on 14 June 2019 - 10:50 PM, said:

There's a great video by BlackHawk SC that looks at how effective AMS is against different kinds of missiles since the AMS change. I recommend it. It illustrates the problem I reference pretty well.

I'm fully aware of the AMS problem, but Vapor Eagle says hi. And why would making ATMs only rewarding to Mediums be a good idea? Are they trying to extinguish ATM use for heavier mechs? Because if anything them bouncing Veagles are much more of a problem than a super-nova with 4 ATM12s.

My point was the changes, is practically stupid. There's an effort, but nothing ventured and nothing gained. It's dumb as ****, because PGI doesn't play their own game. And the changes doesn't even touch the AMS issue.

OZHomerOZ, on 14 June 2019 - 10:48 PM, said:

My opinion on ATM's was I didnt fear them (they need a lock), nor did I think they were that great.
Situational
Against some their good, against others using cover and direct fire pokes not so good.

But the reduced 3 point window may make ATM's more niche.
Less accessible as a meta for pounding the casuals wot wid MM and all

That's a problem considering that ATMs in BT are supposedly for being extremely flexible due to Ammo-Switching. PGI really dropped the ball.

Hell, just remove the Minimum-Range and give it 2.4/2.0/1.6 damage, it would be an instant hit cause it's practically usable at every range.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 14 June 2019 - 11:50 PM.

[Darth Khan]

Have you tried to hide the truth that BNC-3S will get a lower mobility?

[GweNTLeR]

According to the quirk document, Siren has ER PPC heat gen -5%. On live server it is PPC heat gen -5%. Is this a typo or a quirk change?

[crazytimes]

Oh good, the lb5x got a spread buff. That will help the 3 people using them.

Not sure if the ATM change was exactly what the community was interested in, but hey, it's not like the game has a future. It would just be nice if we fixed things that mattered for the last 12 months or so there are enough people left to find games rather than 'fixed' things that didn't.

Edited by crazytimes, 15 June 2019 - 12:41 AM.

[Serial Number]

kapusta11, on 14 June 2019 - 10:25 PM, said:

Can we fix Banshee's weapon mounts already? They were nerfed for no reason.

https://imgur.com/84eSKAZ

This.

[-Pik-]

Alibi changes to fill the patch notes...

[aardappelianen]

yay buffs !, can we have lppc and rocketlauncher min range reduction next please pgi ?

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

so, the spirit-bear.

after being entirely USELESS since the engine-desync, it is now a tiny bit less useless. which still makes it useless.
sorry, but: your method of "balancing" in micro-steps, every 6 or so months, leaves A LOT of things completely useless.

I'd suggest to either:
-up the numbers you're throwing onto things
-leave balancing to the community.

the 2nd approach gives you more a) time to do your stuff, b.) makes the community happy c) you can always shift the blame on them/us d) that way, most things get the buffs/nerfs they need, as we're actively playing that game.
not saying you don't know what you're doing - just that hardcore-several-hours-per-day-players might have more insight in regards to balance, by the very nature of playing that game that much, seeing context which is not always in the numbers and/or on a spreadsheet.



-oh, and good to see that factionplay might be playable again with this patch as per before the last one. let's hope we have people coming back after that. hopefully it's "lessons learned" for the next time you implement something new/different.
we all make mistakes, it's just how we adress them and learn from them.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 15 June 2019 - 03:53 AM.