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Nightbird, on 15 July 2019 - 09:53 AM, said:
I don't like logical posts, as there is a small chance the crop of future entertaining posts may be reduced.
Don't disappoint me guys, disagree with Xiphias, you are right to blame your team for NASCARing, especially on on forums, as this will cause all those NASCARers to recognize their mistake and stop doing it in the future.
Don't disappoint me guys, disagree with Xiphias, you are right to blame your team for NASCARing, especially on on forums, as this will cause all those NASCARers to recognize their mistake and stop doing it in the future.
Logic on the forums is like playing a slow assault and trying to hold a firing line by yourself while the whole team NASCARs away.
Uh, I mean, you're a big dummy. What even is a nightbird anyway? Some kind of owl?
Look at this idiot, he wrote way too much. He should get a life and move out of the basement.
Spoiler
You mortals will never understand my brilliance! I fight in a realm far beyond your comprehension!
Everything has transpired exact as I have foreseen it.
I will bind the foolish mortals to the powers of my will! All will serve my genius!
You obviously lack the ability to understand real tactics. Go back to Call of Duty kid.
You fool! You've fallen into the fallacy fallacy fallacy trap!
People with good stats are simply stat padding with meta builds or being carried in group queue! They would be destroyed if they ever had to play something non meta like a stock mech world championship!
STATISTICS ARE MEANINGLESS! THEY CANNOT QUANTIFY THE GREATNESS OF MY MIND! IT IS BUT THE EVILS OF THE MATCHMAKER THAT THWART ME IN MY QUEST! BE GLAD THAT PGI HAS CHOSEN TO INTERVENE ON YOUR BEHALF MORTALS!
Have you not seen my legacy of success of the forums! Many a war for hearts and minds I've won.
No mere mortal man has ever been worthy or capable enough to comprehend the greatness of plans!
You dare doubt my power? I could destroy you in but an instant if I had mind to do so. Be glad that you puny mortals bore me.
Only practice playing meta tryhard builds. I doubt you could do anything if you had to run a counter meta mixed range build. I do 4D trigonometry in my head to achieve missile locks that transcend time and space. You've already lost, but you know it not yet.
And now the fool admits the error of his ways though he knows it not!
Who would pay mind to a craven peasant like you? You've demonstrated your lack of mental faculties in your execution of the NASCAR. Now you are one of the cursed children, forever doomed to wander the land of the anti-clockwise in search of the illuminating light that you will never find.
Man use NASCAR. Man think bad. You use NASCAR. You think bad.
Your dictionaries have no power here.
Allow me to elucidate more clearly sir. I DO WHAT I WANT! IT'S THE MATCHMAKER'S FAULT THAT I LOSE! I ONLY LOSE BECAUSE I AM SO GENEROUS THAT I ALLOW OTHERS TO WIN! I PLAY FOR FUN!
By definition, NASCAR:
"The National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing (NASCAR) is an American auto racing sanctioning and operating company that is best known for stock-car racing."
I don't think that says tactics anywhere. Checkmate NASCAR drivers.
Could I be wrong? No, it's the children who are wrong.
If I were to walk up and claim the mantel of the meta it would destroy the world.
"Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Xiphias, on 15 July 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:
Unless you have comp experience (as far as I'm aware you don't) or are demonstrably able to perform in solo queue (you don't). You don't have valid experience in tactics in this game. It's does't matter if you are a chess grandmaster or a master tactician in another domain. Unless you can translate those abilities to this game it's irrelevant.
You mortals will never understand my brilliance! I fight in a realm far beyond your comprehension!
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If knowing this (that NASCAR is going to happen), you refuse to change your tactics, does that not then mean you aren't a proficient tactician?
Everything has transpired exact as I have foreseen it.
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Bad players do this, good players adapt to what's happening in the battlefield. Good players NASCAR when it benefits them and don't when it benefits them. However, because good players can't control their team it may not benefit them to stop NASCARing even if it would be the better strategic situation.
Players can NASCAR and still be good (NASCAR has helped win the WC). Saying that players are bad just because they may choose to NASCAR is a fallacy.
Players can NASCAR and still be good (NASCAR has helped win the WC). Saying that players are bad just because they may choose to NASCAR is a fallacy.
I will bind the foolish mortals to the powers of my will! All will serve my genius!
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No, the ability to implement successful action based on your situation is what makes someone decent at strategy and tactics. I agree that someone who doesn't recognize a failed NASCAR is bad at tactics, however recognizing a bad NASCAR is insufficient to make someone good at tactics.
You obviously lack the ability to understand real tactics. Go back to Call of Duty kid.
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Ah, now we bring in the fallacy fallacy. None of these points are really relevant to the discussion regardless of their validity.
You fool! You've fallen into the fallacy fallacy fallacy trap!
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Perhaps I shouldn't state it in quite as definitive terms, but it boils down to:
The worse a player's stats are -> The higher the probability that their tactical knowledge is poor.
Good tactics win more than they lose (given random teams over a large sample).
People that use good tactics should win more than they lose unless their mechanical skill is extremely poor or unless mechanical skill is significantly more important than tactics (in this case tactics are irrelevant compared to skill)
The worse a player's stats are -> The higher the probability that their tactical knowledge is poor.
Good tactics win more than they lose (given random teams over a large sample).
People that use good tactics should win more than they lose unless their mechanical skill is extremely poor or unless mechanical skill is significantly more important than tactics (in this case tactics are irrelevant compared to skill)
People with good stats are simply stat padding with meta builds or being carried in group queue! They would be destroyed if they ever had to play something non meta like a stock mech world championship!
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A player with poor stats is likely to be using bad tactics. Choosing fun over meta is a poor tactical decision (however one that is fine to make). However, good players can do well even in poor builds by making good decisions. Having a WLR < 1 is a strong indicator that the player isn't making good choices in match, because good players can do well even in bad mechs when playing for fun.
STATISTICS ARE MEANINGLESS! THEY CANNOT QUANTIFY THE GREATNESS OF MY MIND! IT IS BUT THE EVILS OF THE MATCHMAKER THAT THWART ME IN MY QUEST! BE GLAD THAT PGI HAS CHOSEN TO INTERVENE ON YOUR BEHALF MORTALS!
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You have provided no evidence that you have tactical experience in MWO. Having presented your claims without evidence they can be dismissed without evidence. The burden of proof lies on you.
Have you not seen my legacy of success of the forums! Many a war for hearts and minds I've won.
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Have you helped lead a serious team and develop tactics and strategies for that team? If not, you're just arguing from a theoretical standpoint and don't have experience. Perhaps you do and perhaps it's an overreach on my part, if so I'll retract this piece of what I said. My experience however is that many people making claims as you do don't have the practical experience in this game (where it matters) to back up their claims.
No mere mortal man has ever been worthy or capable enough to comprehend the greatness of plans!
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If you claim competency in something then your competence is a valid point of discussion in the debate. You claimed to be able to perform well if you chose to do so. I dispute this claim. This doesn't make my argument correct, but it can mean that your point is incorrect.
You dare doubt my power? I could destroy you in but an instant if I had mind to do so. Be glad that you puny mortals bore me.
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I have experience playing the game and doing well, it shows at least to some measure that my tactics are effective (I win more than I lose). I also have helped develop and implement tactics in comp play so I have practical experience in the use of tactics in this game.
Only practice playing meta tryhard builds. I doubt you could do anything if you had to run a counter meta mixed range build. I do 4D trigonometry in my head to achieve missile locks that transcend time and space. You've already lost, but you know it not yet.
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None of this means that my arguments are right (that would be an appeal to authority), but having experience and expertise are valid contributing factors to my knowledge of what makes a tactic good or bad.
And now the fool admits the error of his ways though he knows it not!
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Rather than say, "I'm good listen to me". I gave a specific example of why (as a light) I often choose to NASCAR to kill the enemy assaults. It's based on experience and generally born out in the results I get. If I have good reason to go back to help the assaults then I do. It's not a blind mindless chase as you describe it, it's making a choice based on my previous experience and current evaluation of the battlefield situation.
It's a case example (using myself) of how NASCAR can be a tactical decision at a pilot level. You're overly simplifying the point I was trying to convey in order to dismiss it as a fallacy.
It's a case example (using myself) of how NASCAR can be a tactical decision at a pilot level. You're overly simplifying the point I was trying to convey in order to dismiss it as a fallacy.
Who would pay mind to a craven peasant like you? You've demonstrated your lack of mental faculties in your execution of the NASCAR. Now you are one of the cursed children, forever doomed to wander the land of the anti-clockwise in search of the illuminating light that you will never find.
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My arguments are as follows
I: Matchmaker is random, you will be assigned to a team with no control over what that team will do (i.e. players may or may not be willing to listen to your suggestions)
II: A team is more likely to NASCAR that not.
III: Posting on the forums is not going to change this in any meaningful way
(III.a It's foolish to argue on the forums against NASCAR)
IV: The best tactical decision is to be prepared to NASCAR.
(IV.a If you refuse to do this then you are making poor tactical decision and contributing to your team losing)
I: Matchmaker is random, you will be assigned to a team with no control over what that team will do (i.e. players may or may not be willing to listen to your suggestions)
II: A team is more likely to NASCAR that not.
III: Posting on the forums is not going to change this in any meaningful way
(III.a It's foolish to argue on the forums against NASCAR)
IV: The best tactical decision is to be prepared to NASCAR.
(IV.a If you refuse to do this then you are making poor tactical decision and contributing to your team losing)
Man use NASCAR. Man think bad. You use NASCAR. You think bad.
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Where is this the criteria for a tactic? By definition, Tactic:
1: "a device for accomplishing an end"
2: "a method of employing forces in combat"
https://www.merriam-...ctionary/tactic
"a plan, procedure, or expedient for promoting a desired end or result."
https://www.dictiona...m/browse/tactic
"a conceptual action aiming at the achievement of a goal."
https://en.wikipedia.../Tactic_(method)
NASCAR is a device (rotate left) for accomplishing an end (kill mechs, win the match). It is by definition a tactic. Whether it is a good or bad tactic can be debated, but it is a tactic. Your first point is incorrect, your argument is built on a faulty premise.
1: "a device for accomplishing an end"
2: "a method of employing forces in combat"
https://www.merriam-...ctionary/tactic
"a plan, procedure, or expedient for promoting a desired end or result."
https://www.dictiona...m/browse/tactic
"a conceptual action aiming at the achievement of a goal."
https://en.wikipedia.../Tactic_(method)
NASCAR is a device (rotate left) for accomplishing an end (kill mechs, win the match). It is by definition a tactic. Whether it is a good or bad tactic can be debated, but it is a tactic. Your first point is incorrect, your argument is built on a faulty premise.
Your dictionaries have no power here.
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If I understand this correctly you are arguing that MM has an oversize effect on WLR because one team or another will be better suited for NASCAR?
I have several issues with this:
I. You assume NASCAR is guaranteed. It's not. It may be likely, but not guaranteed.
II. Your probability of being on a team that doesn't NASCAR is the same as anyone else's (in fact it is higher if you personally don't chose to NASCAR which should increase your WLR).
III. NASCAR isn't going to drive W/L any more than player skill would (good players are going to be less likely to NASCAR when it's a bad choice)
IV. The idea that NASCAR is the reason a player has bad WLR is flawed and obscures the real issue, which is player skill and choices
I have several issues with this:
I. You assume NASCAR is guaranteed. It's not. It may be likely, but not guaranteed.
II. Your probability of being on a team that doesn't NASCAR is the same as anyone else's (in fact it is higher if you personally don't chose to NASCAR which should increase your WLR).
III. NASCAR isn't going to drive W/L any more than player skill would (good players are going to be less likely to NASCAR when it's a bad choice)
IV. The idea that NASCAR is the reason a player has bad WLR is flawed and obscures the real issue, which is player skill and choices
Allow me to elucidate more clearly sir. I DO WHAT I WANT! IT'S THE MATCHMAKER'S FAULT THAT I LOSE! I ONLY LOSE BECAUSE I AM SO GENEROUS THAT I ALLOW OTHERS TO WIN! I PLAY FOR FUN!
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My points are:
A: NASCAR is by definition a tactic
B: It can be the best tactic for a team
C: Even if it is not the best tactic for a team due to mech composition/position it can be the best tactical decision for an individual pilot to make given the team's choices
D: Given the reality of NASCAR it's foolish not to adapt how you play to be prepared for it
E: Bad stats are caused by bad players/choices, not the NASCAR bogeyman
You overgeneralize that because many players NASCAR brainlessly that NASCAR itself is brainless and the problem. It is neither. The problem is that bad players make bad decisions. NASCAR is inherently neither good nor bad, it is situational. In many QP matches it is the best choice you as a pilot can make given the players on your team and how they will behave. Ignoring this is applying tactics in a vacuum that isn't based in reality.
A: NASCAR is by definition a tactic
B: It can be the best tactic for a team
C: Even if it is not the best tactic for a team due to mech composition/position it can be the best tactical decision for an individual pilot to make given the team's choices
D: Given the reality of NASCAR it's foolish not to adapt how you play to be prepared for it
E: Bad stats are caused by bad players/choices, not the NASCAR bogeyman
You overgeneralize that because many players NASCAR brainlessly that NASCAR itself is brainless and the problem. It is neither. The problem is that bad players make bad decisions. NASCAR is inherently neither good nor bad, it is situational. In many QP matches it is the best choice you as a pilot can make given the players on your team and how they will behave. Ignoring this is applying tactics in a vacuum that isn't based in reality.
By definition, NASCAR:
"The National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing (NASCAR) is an American auto racing sanctioning and operating company that is best known for stock-car racing."
I don't think that says tactics anywhere. Checkmate NASCAR drivers.
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These apply to any strategy in MWO. Not being able to keep up with the team is a serious liability and expecting the team to play around a mech without any prior planning or strategy is both selfish and foolish.
Could I be wrong? No, it's the children who are wrong.
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Yes, piloting good mechs will get better stats, however good players are still able to do well even without piloting good mechs. Consistently performing poorly (regardless of mechs) is a sign of a poor player. Blaming poor stats on poor mech choices is obscuring the issue of how good the pilot really is and quite often is simply an excuse to avoid admitting a player is bad.
If I were to walk up and claim the mantel of the meta it would destroy the world.
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By all means, if you tell your team not to NASCAR because of it's composition and that's a good choice then do it. However, if your team decides to NASCAR anyway and you ignore this reality and try to do your own thing thinking that it's "tactically superior", then yes, you're an idiot.
A bad plan well followed is often better than a good plan poorly executed
This is the tactical reality of MWO and if you can accept the reality of the situation and adapt to it the better you will do. That's what it means to be a good player and that's what good tactics are in MWO.
A bad plan well followed is often better than a good plan poorly executed
This is the tactical reality of MWO and if you can accept the reality of the situation and adapt to it the better you will do. That's what it means to be a good player and that's what good tactics are in MWO.
"Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
