128 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 12 August 2019 - 02:13 AM, said:

Here's what get's me... if what Russ was saying is true, Epic "Guaranteed" them 1 million in sales.

Let me ask, how does a storefront GUARANTEE that? Unless they plan on buying 1million copies themselves... in which case wouldn't that be essentially boosting the numbers to make it LOOK like the game is selling better than it really has?

Isn't that potentially illegal?

I THINK...maybe...Epic will pay the difference if it doesn't hit that sales marker. So, they are saying that at a minimum, they are going to earn 1 million in sales. Basically, no matter what, PGI is going to see 1 million in sales. I don't think they are going to fudge any sales numbers, I just think that Epic is basically offering a bit of an insurance policy.

The crappy thing out of all of this is that Epic is making darn good offers for these exclusivities. Guaranteed sales, store exposure, signing bonuses, lower take for the store, and breaks on Unreal Engine licensing. I can't blame companies for taking these sorts of deals. I can't imagine how much money they are saving/making off of all of this.

I just wish that, if exclusivity deals like this were going to happen (and mind you I still hate the premise), I at least wish games that already promised or advertised a Steam/GoG/Humble Bundle release during a Pre-Order or crowd funding weren't targeted. Then again, Epic is in a hurry to become the new Steam, and they don't have time to wait two-ish years for a newly announced game to be completed, they have to snipe ones only months away from release :/

[Horseman]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 August 2019 - 02:38 AM, said:

I THINK...maybe...Epic will pay the difference if it doesn't hit that sales marker. So, they are saying that at a minimum, they are going to earn 1 million in sales. Basically, no matter what, PGI is going to see 1 million in sales. I don't think they are going to fudge any sales numbers, I just think that Epic is basically offering a bit of an insurance policy.

IIRC this was how it was described before in regards to some other epic exclusive titles, yes.

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I just wish that, if exclusivity deals like this were going to happen (and mind you I still hate the premise), I at least wish games that already promised or advertised a Steam/GoG/Humble Bundle release during a Pre-Order or crowd funding weren't targeted.

Targeting games that already have a customer base is the point. They want to force those buyers into switching to Epic's platform. Sunken cost fallacy is a *****.

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Then again, Epic is in a hurry to become the new Steam, and they don't have time to wait two-ish years for a newly announced game to be completed, they have to snipe ones only months away from release :/

Dude, they didn't have time to implement standard security measures on their platform either. They have to cut corners everywhere.

Edited by Horseman, 12 August 2019 - 03:14 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Horseman, on 12 August 2019 - 03:10 AM, said:

...Targeting games that already have a customer base is the point. They want to force those backers and pre-order buyers into switching to Epic's platform.

Dude, they didn't have time to implement standard security measures on their platform either. They have to cut corners everywhere.

I just mean that when even a sequel or "spiritual successor" to a title was first announced, it would say Epic from the get go. It doesn't have to be new IPs, just games stating what platform they are launching on from the very start.

Again, I don't like this business practice of exclusives anyway, but I'm just pointing out that Epic could have avoided games that made previous promises. Again though, they figure they don't have time to wait for games announced now to hit their store in a few years.

As for security features, yeah. Epic didn't wait to implement that or really any amount of features one would consider a store should have. Some say that Valve had a weak start as well, but Valve's excuse is that they started years ago and were setting the trend for what a store should have. If you want to compete now, you should match what is the standard in your competition space...But then again...Why do that when you can just buy up everything, right? :/


P.S. I think I get what you are saying now. You mean preying on the game's hype to force people to move over. Essentially, if they say it was an exclusive from the start, people wouldn't get invested, and might avoid the title from the get-go. Snipe a game close to release, and now people are torn and have to make a decision, and some will just stay.

Yeah, just more crap behavior from Epic.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 12 August 2019 - 03:26 AM.

[Horseman]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 August 2019 - 03:23 AM, said:

Again, I don't like this business practice of exclusives anyway

Why I stay away from consoles.

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Some say that Valve had a weak start as well, but Valve's excuse is that they started years ago and were setting the trend for what a store should have. If you want to compete now, you should match what is the standard in your competition space...

Precisely. Just as in the game... you don't bring 2013 meta in attempt to compete with 2019 meta, the field has changed too much.

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P.S. I think I get what you are saying now. You mean preying on the game's hype to force people to move over. Essentially, if they say it was an exclusive from the start, people wouldn't get invested, and might avoid the title from the get-go. Snipe a game close to release, and now people are torn and have to make a decision, and some will just stay.

Ding-ding-ding! Give the man a cookie! I meant more turning existing buyers into a captive audience... but you got the gist of it.
Since they're already invested into the product financially, they're commited to it and for some people that is quite hard to break ( put together sunk cost fallacy, commitment, endowment effect and plain inertia)

Edited by Horseman, 12 August 2019 - 04:25 AM.

[MadcatX]

Horseman, on 12 August 2019 - 04:24 AM, said:

Ding-ding-ding! Give the man a cookie! I meant more turning existing buyers into a captive audience... but you got the gist of it.
Since they're already invested into the product financially, they're commited to it and for some people that is quite hard to break ( put together sunk cost fallacy, commitment, endowment effect and plain inertia)

This is going to sound harsh but I don't think folks who pre-ordered should have gotten a refund, this should have instead been a learning experience that pre-order culture has always been bad for the consumer, no matter what extra bonuses they tack on to sucker a person into pre-ordering, but folks won't learn and will continue to promote this practice... until they get a financial hit.

Ignorance is also not an excuse. Anyone who pre-ordered from PGI and was part of MWO community for a while should have known better. On top of that, there's a decade's worth of history of people getting screwed over by pre-ordering a product where the final product was not what was advertised. Or in certain cases, such as Diablo 3, didn't even work for a week after launch.

I do not mean to downplay Epic's very shady business practices by any means, but I can't really muster sympathy for people who paid months in advance for a product and get mad when there's a change of any kind to the product... they should get mad at themselves for paying for a product sight unseen and, hopefully, learn from the experience. An argument can definitely be made about how bad the pre-order burn was on a case-by-case basis: from some games missing some functionality to, in this case, a game getting locked down to one specific storefront. But at the end of the day, a burn is a burn.

[MeiSooHaityu]

MadcatX, on 12 August 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

This is going to sound harsh but I don't think folks who pre-ordered should have gotten a refund, this should have instead been a learning experience that pre-order culture has always been bad for the consumer, no matter what extra bonuses they tack on to sucker a person into pre-ordering, but folks won't learn and will continue to promote this practice... until they get a financial hit.

Ignorance is also not an excuse. Anyone who pre-ordered from PGI and was part of MWO community for a while should have known better. On top of that, there's a decade's worth of history of people getting screwed over by pre-ordering a product where the final product was not what was advertised. Or in certain cases, such as Diablo 3, didn't even work for a week after launch.

I do not mean to downplay Epic's very shady business practices by any means, but I can't really muster sympathy for people who paid months in advance for a product and get mad when there's a change of any kind to the product... they should get mad at themselves for paying for a product sight unseen and, hopefully, learn from the experience. An argument can definitely be made about how bad the pre-order burn was on a case-by-case basis: from some games missing some functionality to, in this case, a game getting locked down to one specific storefront. But at the end of the day, a burn is a burn.

I do generally agree that Pre-Order behavior is not something to be encouraged. I do tend to avoid it as well, however when it comes to BattleTech/MechWarrior, I tend to be more generous and willing to break that behavior. I don't know what it is with this franchise, maybe it is just my nostalgia and love for the franchise that blinds me a bit.

That said though, I can't say that I agree entirely with your logic.

If PGI had kept the release strategy for the game vague during the Pre-orders, then I might be more willing to side with you on this. If PGI never made it clear how they were to launch the game, and then finally revealed the details as an Epic exclusive, then I could see the argument of..."Well, why did you Pre-order something when you didn't know that detail?".

The difference here is that PGI told everyone it would be on Steam and GOG, and that it would come with Steam Workshop support on launch. The FAQ page even stated this. So, when PGI changed the release platform after launch, I think we can agree that people should naturally have a reason to feel a bit...miffed.

PGI's track record has been a bit shaky over time, however I attribute most of it to having aspirations more loftier than capabilities/resources at hand, and less about intentional misdirection (think Peter Molenuex or Sean Murray). This Epic deal is really the first, very serious intentional misdirection of the fan base. Not the only one, but really one on this severe of a level. At least IMO, I know that can be a bit subjective.

Now granted, if people wouldn't have pre-ordered, this wouldn't be as much of an issue, and I also believe that there is a lesson to be learned here as well about pre-ordering. Still though, I think people have a right to be upset when they were intentionally mislead like in this case vs making a premature action to pre-order without all the info known.

[Nesutizale]

To me the pre-order was the bonus to my Marauder II

I would have bought the Marauder II anyway and needed/wanted to buy some MC. Adding a complete game to the order for no extra money is a fine deal to me.

20$ for the Maurauders, 30$ in MC or what was it with the standart pack? Anyway even if MW5 falls flat I got what I wanted for MWO. I had my fun, so no regrets.

When MW5 comes and is halfway good then I got even more for the same amount of money I would pay later for the package...except that I wouldn't had the Marauders or the MC for MWO.

Also Russ even said during the sale that they are talking to all potential sellers. That included Steam, GOG and Epic. Steam was the most likely one until the very end of the sale. IIRC there was only a 3 day overlapping between singing the deal and the sale ending.
Russ said in the last AMA that Epic turned them down the first time they started talking to each other and that was the reason why they aspected to have a steam release.
Just because you start talking about a release on another platform half a year before the deal is signed dosn't mean you know for sure that it will be released there. A deal is only or sure when all involved have signed it and that was just before the sale was nearly over.

[Wildstreak]

Bud Crue, on 27 July 2019 - 06:22 AM, said:

so what is the problem with MWO?

Good question since I have not been able to play from Summer 2017 up to today due to dodgy reasons from PGI and Spectrum.

Thus I do not trust anymore.

[Nesutizale]

I just take a brake because I need a chance of wallpaper (doing something different).
My current plan is waiting for MW5, play it and then return to MWO...if its still there that is.