26 replies to this topic

[NFSRacer]

So, I've been toying around with the idea of making a Steel Battalion-inspired MechWarrior VR project that I've had rattling around in my head since late March. Issue is, there's a few things that I'm highly curious about with the lore of MechWarrior, namely just how often melee/hand-to-hand combat was in the series. I know the Hatchetman is often viewed as the first actual BattleMech to feature melee combat, however I'm referring to eras such as during the Clan Invasion and even within the Third Succession War. Does anyone know anything about this aspect of 'Mech combat?

[Bombast]

Melee was generally uncommon, but not unheard of, throughout the timeline of Battletech. The only caveats is that it become marginally less common as tech levels increased (Range up) and Clanners hate melee so they'll never do it unless forced to do so.

[Gristle Missile]

There are a few mechs that had signature melee weapons such as the Hatchetman, Axman, Yen-lo-wang
the best use was probably punching enemies within range when your mech hot

[Ken Harkin]

Back in pre-clan tabletop days I would regularly close to melee with my Battlemaster. Two fists, SRM6, 4ML, and a kick.

[The pessimistic optimist]

I hope one day we will get this mech in a Mechwarrior game http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Axman

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

during the "dark days" of ~3000, melee is quite common in lore, and even more common on the tabletop (for tabletop-reasons).

in fluff, mechs in that era are rarely in good shape, often having defect parts somewhere, as new spareparts are hard to come by for most mechs/their owners, except the house-regiments maybe.

a good kick or punch is one of the most reliable weapons you've got left, so you use it.


from 3050+ though.. yeah. clans don't do it, freebirths get shiny new machines, even in parts of the periphery.. melee gets rarer, naturally.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 30 July 2019 - 04:26 PM.

[Nicholas Hyde]

The original Banshee and Charger designs were developed for hand-to-hand combat. And were regarded lowly because of that.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Nicholas Hyde, on 30 July 2019 - 10:16 PM, said:

The original Banshee and Charger designs were developed for hand-to-hand combat. And were regarded lowly because of that.

nope; they're ****** because of engineweight/speed/pityful weapons, not because of melee-capability.

take a look at the grashopper and the t-bolt. both VERY good mechs in a firefight - and even better once you get to CC.

[Willard Phule]

Bombast, on 30 July 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

Melee was generally uncommon, but not unheard of, throughout the timeline of Battletech. The only caveats is that it become marginally less common as tech levels increased (Range up) and Clanners hate melee so they'll never do it unless forced to do so.

Except for "Death from Above" attacks. Clanners are real big on jumping up and landing on your head.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Willard Phule, on 31 July 2019 - 03:28 AM, said:

Except for "Death from Above" attacks. Clanners are real big on jumping up and landing on your head.

if by "all clanners" you mean the 1 or 2 out of probably %imaginative high number% who did it in the novels thanks to mediocre writing..
yeah, then "all clanners" do it.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 31 July 2019 - 04:26 AM.

[Comante]

I would not bother too much , if game mechanics are good, then who cares? I was thinking just the other day that it would be awesome to have a cooperative experience with 2 pilots on a single mech, just like in a combat aircraft or in a tank. Teamplay would be awesome, and the possibilities are almost endless. You could have one controlling lower torso and the other the upper body, you could have one focusing in aiming weapons, with the possibility to introduce more complex mechanics, and the other to manage mech systems, maybe to counter the effect of damages or critical hits.

[MeiSooHaityu]

SirSmokes, on 30 July 2019 - 02:45 PM, said:

I hope one day we will get this mech in a Mechwarrior game http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Axman

Heck Yeah!

Willard Phule, on 31 July 2019 - 03:28 AM, said:

Except for "Death from Above" attacks. Clanners are real big on jumping up and landing on your head.

Not just Clanners …

[Insignus]

NFSRacer, on 30 July 2019 - 11:16 AM, said:

So, I've been toying around with the idea of making a Steel Battalion-inspired MechWarrior VR project that I've had rattling around in my head since late March. Issue is, there's a few things that I'm highly curious about with the lore of MechWarrior, namely just how often melee/hand-to-hand combat was in the series. I know the Hatchetman is often viewed as the first actual BattleMech to feature melee combat, however I'm referring to eras such as during the Clan Invasion and even within the Third Succession War. Does anyone know anything about this aspect of 'Mech combat?

Melee typically comes into play when things go wrong in a fight - people get surprised coming around a corner, or there's a jam/malfunction of the primary weapon, or the weapons themselves are viewed as unreliable (PirateTech, Dark Age Tech, etc.)


As others have mentioned, in open field fights when they are typically presented in lore, melee almost never enters into it, as its primarily a range game - why bash your opponent if you can blast his arms off before he reaches you?

An exception to this is the Solaris Games, which emphasize flashy, crowd pleasing fighting styles and mech designs, so you'll get more melee weapons bolted on or designed into the mech, especially custom variants.

BattleTech from HBS, and the RogueTech mod in particular, make melee a bit more common because of the game mechanics (Principally the turn based nature).

In terms of your project - melee would be best suited on close quarters maps (E.G. Solaris City from MWO), with fast medium mechs, using either purpose built or improvised weapons (RogueTech Mod, for example, features an entire slate of Agri-mechs and Industrial-mechs that do precisely that).

The rationale here is that as mechs get slower, the ability to close and use melee decreases, and as mech weights increase, the power behind a blow becomes fight ending - so a Fafnir can one shot a medium mech. So watching heavy/assault melee is just kind of a boring slow dance.

From a franchise standpoint - one of the dividing lines between Japanese Mecha and Real Robot type IPs and more western IPs like BattleTech is the usage of melee - Mecha and RR favoring more conventional melee designs such as swords, axes, etc that require human-like motions, which make for great fights/duels, so they emphasize melee, whereas BattleTech is a lot more flexible on how melee is employed, even though it de-emphasizes it, because it focuses a lot more on the militaristic aspects of Giant Robots.

Edited by Insignus, 31 July 2019 - 07:22 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 31 July 2019 - 04:26 AM, said:

if by "all clanners" you mean the 1 or 2 out of probably %imaginative high number% who did it in the novels thanks to mediocre writing..
yeah, then "all clanners" do it.

It's about the only physical combat that doesn't have a negative connotation to it due to the piloting skill of the individual. Does that sound better?

[Koniving]

NFSRacer, on 30 July 2019 - 11:16 AM, said:

So, I've been toying around with the idea of making a Steel Battalion-inspired MechWarrior VR project that I've had rattling around in my head since late March. Issue is, there's a few things that I'm highly curious about with the lore of MechWarrior, namely just how often melee/hand-to-hand combat was in the series. I know the Hatchetman is often viewed as the first actual BattleMech to feature melee combat, however I'm referring to eras such as during the Clan Invasion and even within the Third Succession War. Does anyone know anything about this aspect of 'Mech combat?

Melee combat frequency grows and shrinks depending on the era. Early on it was typically a calculated choice, as many mechs with hand actuators also had gloves that could allow them to completely control how the arms move. The Warhammer blueprint for example has an ejection seat, but the pilot was not expected to sit but instead walk Robot Jocks style. (The Warhammer does not have any pedals of any sort, which are typically used for turning and jumpjet control.) When opting to eject, the pilot is released from the brace holding them at the waist and literally thrust into the chair and clamped down for the 'ride'.

As such the pilot had full control of the legs, and a kicking motion could produce a kick in case of an emergency. Individual arm controls also allowed for improvised backhands and swings. This setup is for the WHM-MKIV Prototype. (Keep in mind that's also 1986, at the time Mechs used Fission Reactors... this isn't entirely a canonical detail anymore, just a fact that the developers [FASA] couldn't decide which route to go as such any stuff would change which they are talking about mid-paragraph, where at one point they say Fission then continuing the same topic they write Fusion... I'd even suspect that the first Stackpole was a Fission engine, given that Stackpole's first novel is 1988 and in some source material, Fission still appeared in anything that one might be looking at for detail inspiration.

Continuing on...
Some issues naturally occurred, as such this method of melee soon translated into some preprogrammed leg motions for kicks while the gloves were used for articulate control of the hands. Though several mechs use this including Hunchback and Wolverine (Wolverine is especially known for this as early models were known to literally drop their AC/5 in order to grapple only to later retrieve their gun).

This is a wolverine lifting a tank from a 1987 source.


Eventually, with some exceptions, punch also became activated at a point and switch. TechManual states that one can flip either the punch or kick rocker switch, aim the crosshair at where one wants to melee and pulling the trigger will initiate the most appropriate melee action given the circumstances of both the attacker and defender. Similarly someone fast enough can attempt blocks or counters though the details of these are pretty much non-existent short of "he got gloves yo".


Center panel in this case (left side for reference number).

During and after the third Succession War, melee became pretty popular again. This is because many mechs are in a deplorable state of repair,ammo is at a premium, lasers are fragile and desperation is high. Jumpships became a taboo target, unspoken restrictions on warfare began, resembling the ARES convention (which was literally thrown out the moment the first shot was fired after Kerensky's Star League forces left the system, I recall a tale of someone literally stomping through a school because it was fun to watch the little runts flee...and even more fun to chase them down).

Long story short, people needed to get punched for stuff their fathers did and when you don't got the guns, you make up for it.

Hunchback's tale in TRO 3025 tells of two Hunchbacks being confronted by two Champions. It was a fierce fight that warranted calling for support, but when support arrived the two Champions were dealt with. One had a hole ripped through by the Tomodzuru AC/20 (second largest caliber in the IS at the time) and another had been punched clean through by the other Hunchback's Battlefists. Their heavy armor kept them alive against the weaponized barrage they experienced despite their slow speed.

Bombast, on 30 July 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

Melee was generally uncommon, but not unheard of, throughout the timeline of Battletech. The only caveats is that it become marginally less common as tech levels increased (Range up) and Clanners hate melee so they'll never do it unless forced to do so.

It isn't so much that Clanners hate melee, but they do find it distasteful in a Battlemech. It causes unnecessary damage, some Clans believes it takes no skill as opposed to managing one's systems, aiming, etc. (Some, like Jade Falcon, believe that to resort to emlee is giving their opponents a chance for being pathetic, so it is therefore seen as an insult if a Jade Falcon melee strikes you). There's other stigma attached, but given that Jade Falcon requires a Trueborn MechWarrior candidate to brawl through half a dozen Freebirth academy graduates just to get to his 'Mech in an 8-way free for all against 7 other Trueborn candidates in his or her first Trial of Position, barehanded against the freebirth's melee weapons of choice, and all weapons are live-fire with Mech kills counting toward initial rank (regardless if the pilot survives or not) AND the mandatory condition that if any pilot achieves 3 kills he must accomplish the next kill in melee or forfeit that kill to a pilot of his or her choice...
http://www.sarna.net...ial_of_Position

I can't let you say that the Clans hate it.
Smoke and Jade both revel in it. However its use is intended to be highly ritualistic. Smoke on the other hand is pretty quick to drop any idea of ritual or fairness the moment the tides start turning against them during the invasion.

Edited by Koniving, 03 August 2019 - 10:59 AM.

[JediPanther]

Comante, on 31 July 2019 - 04:37 AM, said:

I would not bother too much , if game mechanics are good, then who cares? I was thinking just the other day that it would be awesome to have a cooperative experience with 2 pilots on a single mech, just like in a combat aircraft or in a tank. Teamplay would be awesome, and the possibilities are almost endless. You could have one controlling lower torso and the other the upper body, you could have one focusing in aiming weapons, with the possibility to introduce more complex mechanics, and the other to manage mech systems, maybe to counter the effect of damages or critical hits.

The genesis mechwarrior game was exactly like this and total crap. first player always got to shoot. second player moved the mech around. Snes also had a mechwarrior game which i never played since I tried that trash genesis version. Mw you are far better off single player controls it all.

Imagine how horrible the game would be with the genesis 2p control scheme. Some ***** walking off map or not moving at all. Or a derp not shooting at targets while you frantically try and move the mech.

The closest thing mwo had to any kind of melee was knock downs. Just watch that goons heart paul video to see how bad that was. One of the few times pgi removed a feature from mwo and actually made mwo better for it not worse.

[Koniving]

JediPanther, on 03 August 2019 - 11:09 AM, said:

The genesis mechwarrior game was exactly like this and total crap. first player always got to shoot. second player moved the mech around. Snes also had a mechwarrior game which i never played since I tried that trash genesis version. Mw you are far better off single player controls it all.

Imagine how horrible the game would be with the genesis 2p control scheme. Some ***** walking off map or not moving at all. Or a derp not shooting at targets while you frantically try and move the mech.

The closest thing mwo had to any kind of melee was knock downs. Just watch that goons heart paul video to see how bad that was. One of the few times pgi removed a feature from mwo and actually made mwo better for it not worse.

SNES had two Mechwarrior games.
Mechwarrior 3050 (basically the Genesis Battletech game but with wider, larger sprites which actually gave you less view of the battlefield but had better controls).
And "Mechwarrior", which is a remake of the original 1989 Battletech but changed who you are in the story to give you another perspective as well as some Wing Commander-style treatment between missions.
MW3050

MW

[Koniving]

Anyway akin to how tanks work in tabletop, one pilot controls the vehicle and the other controls the weapons...and it sucks in a mechwarrior game. So completely agreed. If the two players alternated per life or per mission it wouldn't be so bad. But had to swap controllers for that.

As for the melee in MWO...

Pretty much all we had.

Edited by Koniving, 03 August 2019 - 12:15 PM.

[Armored Yokai]

2:00 Mark.

It's a little fast paced but you get the idea

[Koniving]

Armored Yokai, on 03 August 2019 - 12:32 PM, said:

2:00 Mark.

It's a little fast paced but you get the idea

I really enjoyed piloting through the base in Rex, too. Lots of "this is how it should be" moments. Despite some very anime-ish moments and moves such as the super jumps, there's a lot of weight to the Metal Gears. MWO makes them feel as if they're made of air.