65 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

My 2 cents, for my background I only took some classes on economics and psychology back when I got my degree of statistics from the university of chicago. Feel free to discuss.

1. People making purchases have expectations as to the enjoyment of what they will derive from it. If the amount of enjoyment is less than the expected amount, they will become disappointed and stop making future purchases.

2. During the pre-order phase of the mech packs, it is easier to determine if a mech will be a bad performer than if it will be good. By examining geometry, hardpoint location, and hardpoint mixture, one can either expect the mech to be bad and not purchase it, or that the mech may be good based on quirks and agility that will not be known until 3 months later.

3. Normally, a company would be remedying this fear (that new content will be WORSE than existing content) by promising customers that stats will be tweaked on a timely manner to ensure they will have fun with the mech - read as they will be satisfied with their purchase. PGI does not. PGI actually has taken the interesting route of promising mechs will be mediocre so that there is no power creep.

4. When PGI ensures new mechs are in the middle of the pack in terms of performance, in an environment where many other mechs exist and are leveled, this results in customers having to take their unleveled new mechs - read bottom performance mechs - into this environment to grind levels. This is devastating on the enjoyment those customers have with their new purchase. Even after they level their mechs, because it is worse than their existing mechs in terms of performance - non-paying players call it pay-2-lose - customers stable those mechs never to use them again.

5. Power creep is a valid issue in games, but releasing mechs worse than existing free mechs in MWO's environment is sure to hurt paying customers. Normally, companies decide it's sufficient to prevent pay-2-win claims by ensuring that new mechs are NO BETTER than free mechs, which means that they can be ON PAR with the best of the free mechs. This is a fine line to tread, but it's common sense that since paying customers keep your lights on, they should be kept happy. As long as free existing counters already exist in game, which they do in MWO, avoiding pay-2-win while making sure new content is as good/fun as possible should be the goal. Because new content is targeting the best of existing content, the average power level still increases, which is power creep. This is the natural result of a necessary business decision that basically all other developers make out of necessity.

6. PGI does not target the best of existing mech performance for new mechs. If you look over the last year (12 mech packs), only 3, the vapor eagle, blood asp, and flea are considered good - read satisfactory purchases. In fact, 6, the marauder ii, corsair, champion, hellfire, charger, hatomoto-chi, are considered to be BELOW AVERAGE and worse than free options on release of those mechs.

7. Not all customers want top performers. This is true. However, from a psychological point of, most people would prefer to win than to lose, and would use mechs they think they can win in versus mechs they know they will have a handicap in. In other words, bad mechs may not hurt purchases from the people who would buy the mechs regardless of performance, but a) those people will definitely still buy if the mechs perform well, and b ) you gain the people who do care about performance as customers. The latter group is usually 80% of the population.

8. From past studies, 70-80% of people will stop future purchases if they experience ONE BAD PURCHASE even if they have made many good ones. MWO's customers are far more loyal than the norm, but if >50% of PGI's mech packs result in bad experiences, that loyalty has not been rewarded.

9. Of course, promises that PGI has made about using the money from packs to produce maps and other other content has not materialized, but I see that as a consequence of insufficient sales, caused by a lack of focus on ensuring customers enjoy the content in mech packs.

Edited by Nightbird, 01 June 2019 - 01:06 PM.

[Novakaine]

I concur.

[LordNothing]

last time i bought a mech was with the civil war update when i picked up the annihilator standard pack. i bought this mech pack because at the time i felt that pgi had actually done something to move the game forward. i haven't felt that way since the civil war pack and the newtech that came with it. pgi no longer wants to move the game forward and so mech pack purchases will make no difference and just allow pgi to ride the status quo. people don't want to support a stagnant game. if its not dead already its certainly in a coma.

i think the problem is that the sales department was a one trick pony. mech packs worked for a time as a way to keep the doors open but all that did is saturate people's mech hangers with mechs so the prospect of a new mech became rather meh. failure to expand into other areas, say weapon variants, has created this situation. you could buy votes with your wallet, but the only candidate on the ballot was mech packs. its no wonder the people with tons of mechs stopped voting. if i could buy a pack that supports map development, or a pack that supports newtech, i would do that. but at this point i think i'm done giving pgi money.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 June 2019 - 02:33 PM.

[Pain G0D]

The mechpacks all become cbill mechs eventually . Why pay money ?

I think PGI should have had some variants exclusive only to mechpack purchases .

Mechpacks are too easily available for purchase . Imagine a MWO store that only offered 4 different mechpacks daily . Imagine if you had to wait a month or three because you chose not to buy the mechpack of your dreams asap . You see a new mechpack but you know it will be gone for a long time tomorrow ....

Edited by Pain G0D, 01 June 2019 - 03:38 PM.

[TheArisen]

Agreed

[Tarl Cabot]

Imho, IS mechs suffer more than Clan mechs due to XL engine inequalities. A STD is a STD, but when a IS mech (exception Marauder II - WD mech) is released it comes with STD and isXL thus most players settle for LFE instead of the isXL. Who really wants a guaranteed instant death when either Side Torso is lost, while giving up saved weight/speed, even though majority of IS components are already HEAVIER and BULKIER than their Clan opponents?

Quote

In fact, 6, the marauder ii (IS), corsair (IS), champion (IS), hellfire (Clan), charger (IS), hatomoto-chi (IS),

Heaven forbid PGI introduces IS Omnis....

Edit - As for cXL/LFE vs isXL, the gap difference is major when a ST is lost. And even for those players who die only 15% of the time due to a ST loss, the perception that it is worse than cXL/LFE is still there. And when all of the IS (C) mechs that are used for trial mechs are equipped with isXL, that simply compounds it even more for new players.

And we are hoping that MW5 will do well, as well as potentially bring in new players to MWO?....

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 01 June 2019 - 04:14 PM.

[Bonfor]

Pain G0D, on 01 June 2019 - 02:43 PM, said:

The mechpacks all become cbill mechs eventually . Why pay money ?

I think PGI should have had some variants exclusive only to mechpack purchases .

Mechpacks are too easily available for purchase . Imagine a MWO store that only offered 4 different mechpacks daily . Imagine if you had to wait a month or three because you chose not to buy the mechpack of your dreams asap . You see a new mechpack but you know it will be gone for a long time tomorrow ....

Yes, there are other games that only offer certain vehicles once or twice a year, and others are "retired", making them hard to get unless you gamble with loot boxes (looking at you Wargaming).

[C E Dwyer]

Mech pack though did sell

Right up until the rule of three was removed, was there actually a poor selling mech pack. ?

Fact is all the high performers are made, and the market is saturated.

That leaves the mechs that while some are fanatical for, others wouldn't use if gifted.

[Xetelian]

I think the biggest issue is bad mechs.

I got burned on the NSR really bad and I haven't felt like buying a mech pack since even though there are mechs that I truly wanted.

For example, I knew the PIR -1 would be amazing, but I waited for a cBill release because I was so burned by the NSR I just didn't want to give up any more money.



Making my KDK a pile of useless waste was also a big problem for me.


Often the one good hardpoint mech is either in reinforcements or is the hero. Like with the MCII the B is reinforcement and the Deathstrike is a hero. This isn't true for all packs but it makes for a problem in the packs that it is true for.


They think they can sell mechs with 2 CT Missile points and a head missile point or with hand actuators, they are sorely mistaken, at least for most of us, they wont trick us twice.



It is about time they inflated some hardpoints, brought some of the garbage mechs into the meta and put armor on the ones that need it like the STK.

Why can't the SDR 5V have more hardpoints? Why can't the LCT 1V have either more points or 50% laser cool down again?

Its issues like this that drove so many players away.

Edited by Xetelian, 01 June 2019 - 05:45 PM.

[FireStoat]

Nightbird, on 01 June 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

8. From past studies, 70-80% of people will stop future purchases if they experience ONE BAD PURCHASE even if they have made many good ones. MWO's customers are far more loyal than the norm, but if >50% of PGI's mech packs result in bad experiences, that loyalty has not been rewarded.

All of what you had to say had merit, but I singled this one out as being the winner out of the list. Simply ask any player who purchased either the Warrant Timberwolf hero or the Spirit Bear Kodiak hero how they felt about the purchase after the Civil War patch. The salt was very, very real at the time and while the topic died out, what you typed above stayed squarely in their minds.

[Xetelian]

FireStoat, on 01 June 2019 - 05:57 PM, said:

All of what you had to say had merit, but I singled this one out as being the winner out of the list. Simply ask any player who purchased either the Warrant Timberwolf hero or the Spirit Bear Kodiak hero how they felt about the purchase after the Civil War patch. The salt was very, very real at the time and while the topic died out, what you typed above stayed squarely in their minds.

I bought the collectors edition of the KDK

I leveled the 1 2 3 and 1 (s) up. Put 500,000+ XP on the KDK 3. Now I can't even pilot it. Its squishy and can't twist the damage off its CT at all.

Don't even think about the 1 or 2 or Spirit Bear, they're such hot trash its inexcusable.


I think once you've been burned by having your mech neutered beyond a reasonable nerfing it gets people to leave, not stay and play and buy.

[Phoenix 72]

The problem is also that of oversaturation... Unless you belong to the PokeMech crowd and need to get every Mech there is, how many Medium IS Laser Boats do you need? How many Clan Heavy Ballistic Boats? How many Missile Boats?

At a certain point you simply own all the Mechs you need. There may be more you want, but there will be none you need. I am just surprised it actually took 7 years for most people to get there. I have been playing for 18 months and I feel like I have everything I need. Which is 40 Mechs, btw. And if I had to, I could give away 50% of them, because I do not play them anyway.

So IMO PGIs income stream was bound to dry up. And I think it is very short sighted that they only have a single player game that they pin all their hopes on. Diversify! Do not put all your eggs into one basket... That is management 101, guys.

I am actually willing to spend money on this game. But I am unwilling to do it buying Mechpacks I do not need. I would however buy, I dunno, a season ticket to MWO. Kinda like the MWO WC Supporter pack that comes out every year. I would buy that. I know that is not much and I am willing to actually buy more, but it needs to be something that's actually of interest to me.

[MrMadguy]

Yeah, the biggest problem - is Pay2Lose concept here. It's ok to constantly lose, if you do it for free. Well, it's not ok, but at least there is nothing to demand here. Don't like it - don't play it. But how can you pay to support developers, who don't even respect you and don't do anything to fix situation? I buy 'Mech to support them, but have to lose for days, weeks, months and years anyway? It's nonsense. Just nonsense. If I pay some money for this game, I put obligation to play this game on myself. And if game is crap, then I pay for crap.

And what? Do PGI expect us to buy every 'Mech pack, they release? No way. I haven't seen 'Mech, I really liked, since Linebacker. If PGI wants to know, what factors can make me buy 'Mechs, then there just two of them:
1) I like this 'Mech visually, even if it's performance would be crappy. Examples: Catapult, Thunderbolt, Highlander, Atlas, Awesome, Ebon Jaguar, Linebaker.
2) I like it's performance (i.e. hardpoints, builds, etc), but it shouldn't be way too ugly anyway. Example: Cataphract, Timber Wolf, King Crab.

There are very few 'Mechs, that fall into both categories at the same time: Jagermech, Dire Wolf, Madcat MK2.

Edited by MrMadguy, 01 June 2019 - 11:23 PM.

[Khobai]

I agree the problem is oversaturation

PGI has just done a poor job of differentiating mechs and making each mech a unique play experience.

[Burning2nd]

because they keep on add'n mechs..

instead of adding content..

its obvious from a business stand point that adding mechs is a fast cash option for them : while i guess we can all agree that adding content is harder and probably less profitable

escort mode went by by and it doesn't seem that there is any intent to return turrets on base

[Moochachoo]

I am with you on the last point, the mech packs, if you bought the most complete version, are very very expensive, I am surprised with all that money the game has not really improved.

It took forever for them to implement the ability to save builds, and I am surprised that this game doesn’t have a custom game lobby.

Edited by Moochachoo, 02 June 2019 - 08:44 AM.

[Nightbird]

Darakor Stormwind, on 01 June 2019 - 10:36 PM, said:

The problem is also that of oversaturation... Unless you belong to the PokeMech crowd and need to get every Mech there is, how many Medium IS Laser Boats do you need? How many Clan Heavy Ballistic Boats? How many Missile Boats?

This is not true. For example, the marauder II is a 100 tonner with jump jets with variants that can do laser vomit, SRM splat, gauss/ecm in articulating arms. These are new capabilities that existing mechs don't have. Unfortunately, PGI didn't ensure the SRM variant performed as well as the Cyclops (+JJs!), or the Laser vomit version performed as well as the Banshee (+JJs), or the Gauss/PPC version performed as well as the Bounty Hunter (+ECM!). Instead, the poor agility, hitboxs, and survival quirks means they under-perform the already released content by 30% in matches.

I can find similar new capabilities in the other new mech packs determined to be bad, and the reason is always that even while utilizing those new capabilities, you don't even hit the average performances of older mechs. This is a different problem than over-saturation, which is new mechs doing the same things and at the same performance as existing mechs, this is new meches doing new things but at a worse performance than older mechs, which is PGI not caring about its paying customers.

Edited by Nightbird, 02 June 2019 - 11:23 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

TLDR - ROI

longer version: tell the comunity that if there will be a MWO2, when MW5 runs well the player can "port" parts of his investment.
lots of if don't need to happen but it woukd be the right signal.

[Mumuharra]

My no-go for new mechs for cash is oversaturation and the big „Equalizer“.
I remember the lbx 10 shotgun centurion, the srm4 raven monster and so on.
Nothing game changing but fun to play thanks to quirks that made them unique.
But since all mechs are patched in line and lost their point of sale (uniqueness)l why should I pay more real money for a mediocre average uninteresting boring new mech?
And at least I am pissed that they annihilated so many of my mechs into oblivion bought with real money (MAD Cat, Dire Wolf, Kodiacs, Heros and so on.
Guys, this is a big no-go, sorry.

[Xetelian]

Darakor Stormwind, on 01 June 2019 - 10:36 PM, said:

The problem is also that of oversaturation... Unless you belong to the PokeMech crowd and need to get every Mech there is, how many Medium IS Laser Boats do you need? How many Clan Heavy Ballistic Boats? How many Missile Boats? At a certain point you simply own all the Mechs you need. There may be more you want, but there will be none you need. I am just surprised it actually took 7 years for most people to get there. I have been playing for 18 months and I feel like I have everything I need. Which is 40 Mechs, btw. And if I had to, I could give away 50% of them, because I do not play them anyway. So IMO PGIs income stream was bound to dry up. And I think it is very short sighted that they only have a single player game that they pin all their hopes on. Diversify! Do not put all your eggs into one basket... That is management 101, guys. I am actually willing to spend money on this game. But I am unwilling to do it buying Mechpacks I do not need. I would however buy, I dunno, a season ticket to MWO. Kinda like the MWO WC Supporter pack that comes out every year. I would buy that. I know that is not much and I am willing to actually buy more, but it needs to be something that's actually of interest to me.

I have 136 mechs and still think I want a vapor eagle, a dervish and a few others though I'll be spending my 150,000,000 cBills on them and not real money.


It isn't really need vs want for me. I may be an outlier but a new cockpit and an unleveled mech is my personal challenge.

I have 5000 skill points and I have 850,000 GXP and enough cBills as I have said, to use all that GXP.

But I grind mechs up anyway. I grind 2 ANH 2A one with 6 AC5 and one with UAC5/10 and an ANH 1X

I want to own something viable in every weight class.

When I can get a group together I want to be the guy that says "Oh, we're 5 tons over, let me ton down 5" or "Oh, we're 5 tons short? Let me ton up 5" and I want the mech I pick to also be available for theme drops. I want Dakka in every tonnage above lights, I want laser vomit in every tonnage, I even keep a few LRM mechs for when we run a group of LRMs and Narcs.


I cut my teeth on NES and Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. I spent hours killing things till I could buy all the best weapons in the shops as I progressed and all the magic. I play games like Agarest and Hyperdimenison Nep, and other Idea factor games on Steam that are horrendous grinds because I grind.


I collect, I play and I grind.

I picked Charmander in Red/Blue and caught other things and did enough grinding that I easily swept through that game. It is nice being above the legendary birds in level before you catch them. To have everyone in FF6 learn all the spells. To take on the ruby sapphire weapons and hit 99 and have copies of every materia, mimic, on death, and pheonix and knights of the round on FF7 and take Sephiroth down at level 99 like he was butter and you were a hot knife.

To miss Excalibur 2 in FF9 because you spent 15 hours leveling around the time you got to Quina, disc 1.

To have actually played FF13...sheesh...nuff said.

I'm probably the only person who got 5000 or so skill points and only used a couple to get ECM on a couple mech's skills. A lot of my mechs are mastered anyway.