32 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

There is a weird bug going on where some players have unnatural durability (per the chassis); ie witnessing your shots or a teammates' full alpha on a mech not even register on the enemy mech, or something where you know it would ordinarily core out a component, yet barely turns yellow. Other times they fold like paper. Then, times where it feels about right from the user end where weapons feel like they you would expect. Being an experienced MWO player with something just around 17,200 matches I've seen a few things.
I'm not sure if it's the ping latency or what but it's strange enough to give pause. My ping hovers around 51-60 US so it's not fantastic but is good.

It's bizarre.

Edited - Damage may or may not be related, but it seems to correlate too. You have a very active game and poured shot after shot and went down blazing, but your score shows potato.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 11 September 2019 - 10:47 AM.

[L057FUNC710N]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 13 September 2019 - 11:50 AM.
unconstructive

[Tsukimi]

Last night a friend of mine pumped something like 10 IS AC20 rounds into the rear of an ACW at close range (less than 50 meters) all hits to the rear CT and the ACW was still standing with armor still remaining on the rear after all that while the ACW was able to tear apart the assaults and heavies in front. No Friendly fire damage caused by the friend with the AC20s. The ACW that mach just wasn't taking much damage from any one with with direct hits on it from Ballistic or energy weapons. SRMs and SSRMs would do damage to him tho.

Was just a weird damage match. The next match we ended up against the same guys and he took a bit of damage from energy weapons with full laser burns on his back and front but not enough to say that it was much better than the previous, again Streaks were the only things that did any real damage ripping him apart from nearly full back armor that had taken the full burn from 6 mpl 4 or 5 times in the back at close range only turning the armor yellow before the streak mech took over and the MPL mech changed targets.

Edited by Tsukimi, 11 September 2019 - 02:22 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Ballistics registration has always been a bit... screwy... in this game, especially with very disparate pings between target and shooter. With RAC's, MG's, and any other quick firing multi 'bullet' round it's not so noticeable, but with single round ballistics, it can be very noticeable at times.

Every time I play, EVERY TIME, I see HG's hit other 'mechs in open very orange/red locations and while the target reticule changes color indicating hit, the damage inflicted on the target is either negligible or not at all, where the enemy's paper doll doesn't even flash indicating a hit. This is not just from when I'm firing on a target, but I see it happen when I'm observing someone else after I've been killed.

Very frustrating, and this has been in the game for years.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 12 September 2019 - 07:32 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Just a friendly reminder that where you see your teammate hits, where he sees he hits and where he actually hits are three different things.

[justcallme A S H]

PhoenixFire55, on 13 September 2019 - 12:43 AM, said:

Just a friendly reminder that where you see your teammate hits, where he sees he hits and where he actually hits are three different things.

This. People don't get HSR.

I never see all of this constant / noticeable shots missing that all these people claim happens all day long because I know how it works I guess.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 13 September 2019 - 06:11 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

This isn't just HSR and a difference of shot placement vs. player perspective.

It is a fact of the SERVER SIDE hit detection REPORTING a hit to shooter, but INCONSISTENTLY applying the hit to the target.

This is watching a shot hit, the targeting reticule REPORTING the hit (changing shape/color), but the target paper doll NOT showing ANY additional damage, ANYWHERE on the 'mech.

Since hit detection is managed SERVER SIDE, reported FROM the server when a hit takes place, it's obvious that we've had, for a long time now, issue with ballistic (and probably PPC because the mechanic works the same for it) hit detection/management.

[Jackal Noble]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2019 - 06:57 AM, said:

This isn't just HSR and a difference of shot placement vs. player perspective.

It is a fact of the SERVER SIDE hit detection REPORTING a hit to shooter, but INCONSISTENTLY applying the hit to the target.

This is watching a shot hit, the targeting reticule REPORTING the hit (changing shape/color), but the target paper doll NOT showing ANY additional damage, ANYWHERE on the 'mech.

Since hit detection is managed SERVER SIDE, reported FROM the server when a hit takes place, it's obvious that we've had, for a long time now, issue with ballistic (and probably PPC because the mechanic works the same for it) hit detection/management.

This

[Prototelis]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2019 - 06:57 AM, said:

It is a fact of the SERVER SIDE hit detection

The hit marker is a client side effect, the paper doll is not.

Honestly this game has pretty good reg, their server authoritative implementation is really interesting.

Edited by Prototelis, 13 September 2019 - 11:09 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Prototelis, on 13 September 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

The hit marker is a client side effect, the paper doll is not.

Honestly this game has pretty good reg, their server authoritative implementation is really interesting.

Hit marker is ALSO server side, as evidenced in really HIGH latency games where you can watch the shot hit the target (or apparently go past it) and then half a second or longer later you THEN get the hit indication.

[justcallme A S H]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2019 - 06:57 AM, said:

This isn't just HSR and a difference of shot placement vs. player perspective.

It is a fact of the SERVER SIDE hit detection REPORTING a hit to shooter, but INCONSISTENTLY applying the hit to the target.

This is watching a shot hit, the targeting reticule REPORTING the hit (changing shape/color), but the target paper doll NOT showing ANY additional damage, ANYWHERE on the 'mech.

Since hit detection is managed SERVER SIDE, reported FROM the server when a hit takes place, it's obvious that we've had, for a long time now, issue with ballistic (and probably PPC because the mechanic works the same for it) hit detection/management.

No dude.

I've seen you complain about hitreg and stuff on your stream a few times when targets do not die because they are cherry CT or otherwise.

Yet if you look clearly at the video - the shot was aimed incorrectly on the mech - easily checkable by seeing where the reticule is vs where you think it was and the resulting damage. That is nothing to do with hitreg what so ever, that is player error.

It's a mistake many make.

Also paperdolls take time to load, remember there is a time delay because of sensor times etc. Often people that "R" a target immediately see a multi-flashing paperdoll @ 600m - that is not accurate if you've just hit R and shot at around the same time. Your damage will not show because there is a delay on the information of a mech - a delay which is affected by many factors/sensor range/equipment etc.

Either way what I shoot, I hit, it reg's there when the paperdoll eventually shows up and reflect this almost always. It would be 1% at best the amount of non-hitreg'd shots.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 13 September 2019 - 06:33 PM.

[Prototelis]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2019 - 03:10 PM, said:

Hit marker is ALSO server side,

No.

[LordNothing]

the only place i find where hit detection is wonky is when firing multiple ppcs simultaneously. however the same ppcs when chain fire is used (double tap as if its a uac) seem to get a higher hit rate. im not sure if its hit detection or just a convergence artifiact but either way its weird and doesn't happen with ballistics.

[Dimento Graven]

Prototelis, on 13 September 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

The hit marker is a client side effect, the paper doll is not.

Honestly this game has pretty good reg, their server authoritative implementation is really interesting.

Given what I see in game during high latency periods when connected to oceanic, where I will VISIBLY hit a target, then a second or more goes by before the cursor hit indication occurs tells this it is in fact SERVER side.

The server determines the hits and the client won't report a hit until the server tells it to.

There is no other explanation for a delay in the hit marker otherwise.

justcallme A S H, on 13 September 2019 - 05:39 PM, said:

No dude.

I've seen you complain about hitreg and stuff on your stream a few times when targets do not die because they are cherry CT or otherwise.

Yet if you look clearly at the video - the shot was aimed incorrectly on the mech - easily checkable by seeing where the reticule is vs where you think it was and the resulting damage. That is nothing to do with hitreg what so ever, that is player error.

It's a mistake many make.

Also paperdolls take time to load, remember there is a time delay because of sensor times etc. Often people that "R" a target immediately see a multi-flashing paperdoll @ 600m - that is not accurate if you've just hit R and shot at around the same time. Your damage will not show because there is a delay on the information of a mech - a delay which is affected by many factors/sensor range/equipment etc.

Either way what I shoot, I hit, it reg's there when the paperdoll eventually shows up and reflect this almost always. It would be 1% at best the amount of non-hitreg'd shots.

You obviously don't want my stream enough.

When I am at fault for a miss, I say, "my fault", or "I just plain f'd that shot", I know the difference and will admit to my own failings as they happen.

As far as your assertion that I'm aiming incorrectly, where my reticule targeted vs. where it hits, etc., are you keeping in mind that I'm typically firing weapons (ballistics/PPCs) that have a non-instantaneous flight time and that I have to accommodate for not only for any target movement, but my own as well?

Hence, where my target reticule at the time of firing is, is in fact me leading a target and will of course be not in alignment with the expected hit location.

When I really question/get annoyed by the hit registration/damage delivery is when I CLEARLY, VISUALLY, hit a target and there is either no hit detection at all, or when there is a hit that the server reports via hit marker, but no damage delivered to the paper doll, OR, if damage is delivered to the paper doll, I question it when I hit an open deep red critical location with dual HG/PPC and all that red location does is blink without destruction.

AND KEEP IN MIND, a lot of times when I REALLY notice this is when I'm observing OTHER people play. Considering that while I'm observing, 100% of the data being visually represented comes ONLY from the server. So when the server is showing me someone else firing, reporting a hit on a target, and that paper doll NOT reflecting any new damage, it's NOT because my PC is part of this equation. MY PC (and in fact the other player's PC) is COMPLETELY 100% out of the picture. (caps for emphasis, not to shout) AT THIS POINT, WHEN YOU ARE AN OBSERVER YOU ARE BEING FED ALL THE INFORMATION FROM THE SERVER, THERE IS NO THIRD PARTY DATA SOURCE. You'd think that the information being received strictly from the server would be 100% in sync, but it isn't, very frequently it's not.

Or are you saying that PGI has somehow managed to program perfect hit detection/reporting/damage management, while still failing to program pretty much anything else in this game perfectly?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 14 September 2019 - 11:32 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

LordNothing, on 14 September 2019 - 07:23 AM, said:

the only place i find where hit detection is wonky is when firing multiple ppcs simultaneously. however the same ppcs when chain fire is used (double tap as if its a uac) seem to get a higher hit rate. im not sure if its hit detection or just a convergence artifiact but either way its weird and doesn't happen with ballistics.

Thats just the leftover stealth nerf from the times of 6xPPC Stalkers. They simply forgot to remove it.

[Nightbird]

Video or didn't happen

[Nightbird]

Usually when this happens, it's dropped internet packets from your ISP, as a system problem would affect everyone.

[Prototelis]

Dimento Graven, on 14 September 2019 - 11:30 AM, said:

Given what I see in game during high latency periods when connected to oceanic, where I will VISIBLY hit a target, then a second or more goes by before the cursor hit indication occurs tells this it is in fact SERVER side.

I don't think thats true. I think you'd like it to be true.

The hit marker turns red even when in sliding-in-place mech conditions. There are other ways to observe the same behavior.

Dimento Graven, on 14 September 2019 - 11:30 AM, said:

AND KEEP IN MIND, a lot of times when I REALLY notice this is when I'm observing OTHER people play.

Wow, how long have you played this game and don't know you can't trust what you see in spectator?

1. Spectator view isn't "100% server data"
2. You can't trust what you see in spectator view

Edited by Prototelis, 16 September 2019 - 09:28 AM.

[Apache1990]

Spectator view shows people doing damage by shooting the ground and teleporting, it's not really an accurate representation of what's going on, as Proto says.
(Especially if either your ping or the spectated player's ping is bad, you don't see the effects of server-state rewind.)

Edited by Apache1990, 16 September 2019 - 09:55 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Prototelis, on 16 September 2019 - 09:25 AM, said:

I don't think thats true. I think you'd like it to be true.

The hit marker turns red even when in sliding-in-place mech conditions. There are other ways to observe the same behavior.

I haven't noticed that before.

I'll pay attention next time that comes up.

Quote

Wow, how long have you played this game and don't know you can't trust what you see in spectator?

1. Spectator view isn't "100% server data"
2. You can't trust what you see in spectator view

Apache1990, on 16 September 2019 - 09:54 AM, said:

Spectator view shows people doing damage by shooting the ground and teleporting, it's not really an accurate representation of what's going on, as Proto says.
(Especially if either your ping or the spectated player's ping is bad, you don't see the effects of server-state rewind.)

That's kind of the whole point, how this game's engine on the server side is so friggin' malf'd it can't even reliably present a non-participating observer with a "true" picture of what's going on.

Yes, exactly if you're observing another player, and suddenly another 'mech is warping around and such, the only conclusion is that is what the server is also seeing and reporting, and attempting to base hit detection on.

It's gotten much worse as power creep has progressed in the game, where you can have multiple 'mechs launching HUNDREDS of missiles (computer guided and unguided), while simultaneously having multiple 'mechs with their own multiple AMS systems, with multiple 'mechs boating LBX, ultra ACs, RAC, and MG's, depending on how the engine is setup, the tracking of individual pellets, missiles, bullets, etc. could easily cause a data saturation issue affecting hit registration and damage allocation.

PGI has been far from perfect in its programming of this game at, you people can't tell me you TRULY BELIEVE that this is actually working perfectly. If you believe it is, you've got some serious 'white knight syndrome'...