69 replies to this topic

[thievingmagpi]

Numbers and stats are fun. It's definitely a pretty meaningless thing, but it's still fun to look at. I haven't checked to see if it's tracked via the stats page, but that would also be fun to look across all mechs over time etc, even if it is meaningless.

[Anomalocaris]

Dimento Graven, on 30 September 2019 - 01:49 PM, said:

I like the stat, it's something I look at comparing my builds.

For example - King Crab vs. Fafnir, both 100 ton assaults:

Average damage received before the King Crab is dead: ~700-800 damage
Average damage received before the Fafnir is dead: ~500-600 damage

Significant difference between the survivability of the two chassis.

This. I find it useful to look at my end of game screenshots for different mechs and see how much damage I took. Some things I've noticed so far (many of which would seem to be obvious even without the dmg stat, but....).

IS XL engine mechs in general take less dmg to kill than Clan XL engine mechs of similar tonnage (duh, right?). It's even worse when you consider that the IS mechs often have more armor/structure quirks (looking at dmg taken vs. total health available).

Hitboxes matter (as you pointed out with the KGC vs. FNR). My WLF-GR takes on average almost as much dmg to kill as my PHX-2 despite the PHX having substantially more armor/structure. Or maybe its not just hitboxes but also torso/turning speed, etc.

I find the data fascinating, if for no other reason than to assess my own playing/builds/strategies/etc. I suspect that as time goes on and more data accumulates it will be even more useful. I would love to see the data incorporated into our stats pages as well.

[Buster Machine 0]

thievingmagpi, on 30 September 2019 - 02:00 PM, said:

Numbers and stats are fun. It's definitely a pretty meaningless thing, but it's still fun to look at. I haven't checked to see if it's tracked via the stats page, but that would also be fun to look across all mechs over time etc, even if it is meaningless.

Definitely, would still be fun to look at at the end of match score board even if it is generally meaningless outside of chassis specific context.

[Vellron2005]

Dimento Graven, on 30 September 2019 - 01:49 PM, said:

I like the stat, it's something I look at comparing my builds.

For example - King Crab vs. Fafnir, both 100 ton assaults:

Average damage received before the King Crab is dead: ~700-800 damage
Average damage received before the Fafnir is dead: ~500-600 damage

Significant difference between the survivability of the two chassis.

If PGI is tracking this information on a per chassis basis, maybe it will lead quirk adjustments.

(I mean if anyone currently left at PGI - after the various staff reductions and reassignments - is still concerned with maintaining balance)...

This method is not very good for tracking a mech's survivability compared to other mechs..

Firstly, you can kill a mech with most damage to CT, or by crippling it completely, or by taking both legs or by headshot. Widely different damage needed for either.

Secondly, the game doesn't register damage properly, and this is known.

Thirdly - ammo explosions, critical hits, backstabbing and such..

All in all - not a very reliable way to track just how much a mech can take.

[Dimento Graven]

Vellron2005, on 01 October 2019 - 01:05 AM, said:

This method is not very good for tracking a mech's survivability compared to other mechs..

Firstly, you can kill a mech with most damage to CT, or by crippling it completely, or by taking both legs or by headshot. Widely different damage needed for either.

Secondly, the game doesn't register damage properly, and this is known.

Thirdly - ammo explosions, critical hits, backstabbing and such..

All in all - not a very reliable way to track just how much a mech can take.

Actually, so far it's been a great method.

Your first point - those would be outliers to any trending, and it doesn't matter the chassis type (other than the bigger the chassis, THEORETICALLY, the more armor in the legs - some 'mechs do get leg armor quirks if I remember correctly so they would have a different damage received profile in those areas)

Your second point - yeah been a long time complaint for me, but not registering properly means one of the following:

• A shot that SHOULD have registered didn't, so as far as damage received, makes no difference to the damage received total.
  
• A shot that did register registered to the wrong location, so it STILL registered and adds to the total damage received.
  
• A shot that shouldn't have hit, some how registered as it did, gets added to the damage received amount.

The "general theory" most of us instinctively go with is "'mechs of similar size and weight will have similar armor amounts and have 'similar' survivability (re: DURABILITY), so when you're like me, and you play different 100 ton 'mechs and you notice one doing significantly more poorly in surviving than the other, even though you play both in the exact same way, it kind of sticks out, especially when that "total damage received" stat is consistently more than 200 points different.

Now, other than specific 'mechs with craptastic hit boxes, the situation I find with the Fafnir and KGC is surprising. I actually DID expect a survivability difference (the KGC has a tiny bit more armor and bigger armor quirks), but I did not expect it to be CONSISTENTLY 200 points or more different.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 01 October 2019 - 05:24 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Just counting outright damage taken means nothing in the context of what builds were being run etc.

Say you run AC2 KGC vs UAC10/5 FAFNIR... The Faf, by pure logic, is more likely to take more damage as its in range of many more weapons.

The next sub-set factor is speed.

A following sub-set is maps. Say in 40 games you get certain maps than others - that dont help the build etc etc.


Without plotting ALL the extra information that accompanies damage taken in its context and then understanding it. It really does mean nothing in a QP sense.

[Dimento Graven]

justcallme A S H, on 01 October 2019 - 07:17 AM, said:

Just counting outright damage taken means nothing in the context of what builds were being run etc.

Say you run AC2 KGC vs UAC10/5 FAFNIR... The Faf, by pure logic, is more likely to take more damage as its in range of many more weapons.

That would depend on how you're playing, AND EVEN THEN, the end result of a consistent ~200 point difference between 'mech death is pretty telling.

Consider: If you're playing the AC2 KGC the same way you're playing the Fafnir, ie: at the front of the battle or in the middle of the brawl, theoretically with similar 'mechs it should require similar amounts of damage to bring them both down, regardless of the weapons equipped.

That is not the case in the KGC vs Fafnir comparison.

The Fafnir is by far the more fragile 'mech.

On every map, in every game mode, playing both similarly.

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The next sub-set factor is speed.

In this case the 'mech's speed not extremely dissimilar: The KGC being 56.7kph max and the Fafnir being 48.6kph (if I remember correctly). That's like 8.1kph difference, AND EVEN THEN, the amount of damage required to take down a 'mech wouldn't change if they were the exact same speed.

Quote

A following sub-set is maps. Say in 40 games you get certain maps than others - that dont help the build etc etc.

I don't believe maps have any effect on the damage required to take down a 'mech. Yes, terrain differences means the point at which some weapons may have access to you is different from map to map, BUT, that doesn't result in an armor reduction or hitbox change.

Quote

Without plotting ALL the extra information that accompanies damage taken in its context and then understanding it. It really does mean nothing in a QP sense.

There's no need to put the (attempting to circumvent unnecessary censoring here) "@n@l" in analysis here.

There isn't any extra information you could dream up that would change the shape of the hitboxes, change the quirks, or the like.

The only thing I haven't tried, as it JUST NOW occurred to me is to check the status of CASE on the Fafnir. It's possible due to the loadout of the Fafnir the HG explosions are the problem, somehow possibly critting out the STANDARD engine of the 'mech earlier than in the KGC (which has an LFE in it).

[Prototelis]

Y'all making a big deal out of what is ultimately the most pointless stat they've ever added to the end match screen lol.

[justcallme A S H]

Dimento Graven, on 01 October 2019 - 08:14 AM, said:

That would depend on how you're playing, AND EVEN THEN, the end result of a consistent ~200 point difference between 'mech death is pretty telling.

To me it's just telling that you don't really know how to understand and/or play mechs.

As I've said previously - I have seen you blame on stream hitreg et.al. - When you simply whiffed shots.

And yet again here you're putting in hitreg as a significant point of argument.

I really don't think you understand it and just blame it for poor aim/performance in some instances.

[Pseudo98]

Stat should be on the teams EoR screen for all to see.

[Dimento Graven]

justcallme A S H, on 01 October 2019 - 08:31 AM, said:

To me it's just telling that you don't really know how to understand and/or play mechs.

As I've said previously - I have seen you blame on stream hitreg et.al. - When you simply whiffed shots.

You're wrong, on both parts, as I've stated previously. When I whiff a shot, I cuss myself as much as I cuss PGI when a shot hits but doesn't register, watch my stream, you'll see.

Quote

And yet again here you're putting in hitreg as a significant point of argument.

Actually I'm not calling out hit reg here that much at all. After all when the server mistakes a hit as a miss, there's no damage counted to the damage received at all, and it only matters on those extremely rare occasions where you've visibly missed but the hit reg somehow counts a hit anyway. Something that I haven't noticed happening enough to even bother worrying about.

I am pretty sure I have been alluding to the fact that while the KGC has, what... ~20 more points of armor per torso section than the Fafnir, it's somehow adding up to an ~200 point difference of damage received before the 'mech is dead, and that it seems to me due to the 'mech's shape and/or hit box make up, the Fafnir is significantly more fragile than the KGC.

Quote

I really don't think you understand it and just blame it for poor aim/performance in some instances.

Again, you're wrong. I get the impression you just don't like me and therefore have a bias against pretty much anything I'd post, I pretty much am not even sure why I bother replying to you other than to attempt to clarify my points before you muddle them.

[Kubernetes]

Prototelis, on 01 October 2019 - 08:15 AM, said:

Y'all making a big deal out of what is ultimately the most pointless stat they've ever added to the end match screen lol.

I guess there isn't much left to argue about, so they're gonna go at this.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I thought few times it's been curious, looking how much I've taken and comparing it to other mechs of similiar size.

Shame you can't see the damage received of other players(understandably since it woud just lead to blaming LRM boats ect), but it's bad you can't see them from your own mechstats either. (https://mwomercs.com...stats?type=mech)

[Corvus Antaka]

So long and thanks for the fish, on 04 October 2019 - 09:30 AM, said:

I thought few times it's been curious, looking how much I've taken and comparing it to other mechs of similiar size.

Shame you can't see the damage received of other players(understandably since it woud just lead to blaming LRM boats ect), but it's bad you can't see them from your own mechstats either. (https://mwomercs.com...stats?type=mech)

I'd like to see damage recieved alongside damage done on final score for everyone.

[LTC Kilgore]

Vellron2005, on 01 October 2019 - 01:05 AM, said:

This method is not very good for tracking a mech's survivability compared to other mechs..

Firstly, you can kill a mech with most damage to CT, or by crippling it completely, or by taking both legs or by headshot. Widely different damage needed for either.

Secondly, the game doesn't register damage properly, and this is known.

Thirdly - ammo explosions, critical hits, backstabbing and such..

All in all - not a very reliable way to track just how much a mech can take.

Careful, there are people that will want to fight you for pointing that out....

[Dimento Graven]

Corvus Antaka, on 05 October 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

I'd like to see damage recieved alongside damage done on final score for everyone.

That would be interesting indeed.

Considering that damage done has been in for years and has been a 'flaming point' for judging performance in a match, why not include damage received?

It would be interesting to see how much damage lights, and some assaults, receive at the end of matches...

[Vellron2005]

LTC Kilgore, on 06 October 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

Careful, there are people that will want to fight you for pointing that out....

I'm used to pointing out inconvenient truths, I'm actually good at it..

And I'm also used to people wanting to fight me on just about anything, cose' it's me, and they can't stand me for being me.

They can stick it where the sun don't shine.

It's a useless stat who's dev hours could have, and SHOULD HAVE been better spent..

I can literally come up with at least 10 things of the top of my head that I would have thought a better use of dev hours in this game..

But alas..

I just hope they make MW5 awesome.. I don't think I would forgive a second wasted opportunity to make a truly amazing Battletech game.

Edited by Vellron2005, 09 October 2019 - 02:12 AM.

[LTC Kilgore]

Vellron2005, on 09 October 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

I'm used to pointing out inconvenient truths, I'm actually good at it..

And I'm also used to people wanting to fight me on just about anything, cose' it's me, and they can't stand me for being me.

They can stick it where the sun don't shine.

It's a useless stat who's dev hours could have, and SHOULD HAVE been better spent..

I can literally come up with at least 10 things of the top of my head that I would have thought a better use of dev hours in this game..

But alas..

I just hope they make MW5 awesome.. I don't think I would forgive a second wasted opportunity to make a truly amazing Battletech game.

yeah, based on their track record, I wouldn't get your hopes up

[Prototelis]

Vellron2005, on 09 October 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

I'm used to pointing out inconvenient truths, I'm actually good at it..

Your opinion isn't the truth lawl.

[LTC Kilgore]

Prototelis, on 09 October 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

Your opinion isn't the truth lawl.

this game does have problems with hit reg though...