43 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Prototelis, on 29 September 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:

Yes, it is. Stunlock in action games is cancer.

Do you even know what stunlock is? Knockdowns in MWO were never stunlock because you were invincible when you were knocked down. So unless the light mech was by itself (in which case it deserved to die) it was always better to stop shooting the invincible knocked down light mech and shoot a different mech you could actually hurt.

Were knockdowns buggy and glitchy? absolutely. Could they have been fixed? probably. PGI never even tried.

Prototelis, on 29 September 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:

Last I checked a 20 tonner is worth 20 tons and a 100 tonner is worth 100 tons

But is a pirahna 1/5th as good as an assault? No lol. Again you are wrong. Youre always wrong.

The very fact a piranha isnt 1/5th as powerful as an assault means PGI absolutely implemented some equalization to try and make lights closer in power level to assaults. They did it primarily through limited hardpoints on assaults, having a more oppressive heat system, doubling the armor/structure, and mech scaling; all of which were skewed in favor of light mechs to try and make them less bad.

Drop tonnage doesnt work properly when an assault costs 5 times more than a pirahna but isnt 5 times better than a piranha. Thats why drop tonnage in MWO is complete fail.

Prototelis, on 29 September 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:

Lights are worse than assaults in this game. Nobody seriously played lights in any of the other games unless they were made to because of league/server rules. Viable isn't the same as equal.

Of course theyre worse. But theyre not proportionally worse like they should be. In tabletop it takes 4-5 locusts/piranhas to be an equal match for a fully armored 100T assault.

And people absolutely DO play lights in all of the other games. Because those games have progression. You have to start out in a light and work your way up to a heavier mech. You have no choice but to play lights in other games like MWLL because you start out in one. MWO is the only mechwarrior game where playing lights entirely optional.

Edited by Khobai, 30 September 2019 - 05:17 PM.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 30 September 2019 - 04:45 PM, said:

Do you even know what stunlock is? Knockdowns in MWO were never stunlock because you were invincible when you were knocked down. So unless the light mech was by itself (in which case it deserved to die) it was always better to stop shooting the invincible knocked down light mech and shoot a different mech you could actually hurt.

Sure for like 2 seconds, then turn and shoot the no longer invincible but not able to move yet light when it got to the end of the stand up animation.

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But is a pirahna 1/5th as good as an assault? No lol. Again you are wrong. Youre always wrong.

The very fact a piranha isnt 1/5th as powerful as an assault means PGI absolutely implemented some equalization to try and make lights closer in power level to assaults. They did it primarily through limited hardpoints on assaults, having a more oppressive heat system, and mech scaling; all of which were skewed in favor of light mechs to try and make them less bad.

Because having a mech be 1/5 as powerful as others in this type of game wouldn't work. You only get 1 or 4 mechs per match so that just wouldn't work. The game would have to been set up to where every match you progress through mechs or have a battle point system and you can bring as many mechs as it takes to hit the bp cap or something. But that's not what the game is, instead its a set amount of mechs so it makes more sense for them to be about equal. And there are plenty of things in the game that hurt lights more than the other classes like streaks, 40kph legged speed limit, target spotted, overheat.

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Of course theyre worse. But theyre not proportionally worse like they should be. In tabletop it takes 4-5 locusts to be an equal match for a fully armored assault.

That's one player controlling multiple mechs at one time, very different game.

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And people do play lights in all of the other games. Because those games have progression. You have to start out in a light and work your way up to a heavier mech. You have no choice but to play lights in the other games. Whereas you can play MWO without ever playing a light one time.

In single player and MWLL. Which again is fine because of how they have that progression. But since this game doesn't you can't really ask that they nerf lights to be like it does. If anything under the current system lights should be buffed.
Maybe later games will use a MWLL like system but the "I only play assaults" crowd probably wouldn't like that. So really its more likely that the assault "crybabies" are who you should blame.

[Khobai]

dario03, on 30 September 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

Because having a mech be 1/5 as powerful as others in this type of game wouldn't work.

Probably not. But my point was PGI tried to have it both ways. They tried to make a 100T cost five times more tonnage than a 20T mech without it being 5 times better. Thats bound to cause problems. And it does.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 30 September 2019 - 06:39 PM, said:

Probably not. But my point was PGI tried to have it both ways. They tried to make a 100T cost five times more tonnage than a 20T mech without it being 5 times better. Thats bound to cause problems. And it does.

It doesn't really cost more though. In FP and group drops you need to fit within a certain tonnage but you don't get extra mechs if you go light.

[Karl Streiger]

Prototelis, on 30 September 2019 - 03:16 PM, said:

lol no.

You fought primarily to laser off one leg which got you an easy kill.



Well it sure isn't stunlock.



Ghost heat was done to prevent the MP experience from being exactly the same unbalanced mess it was in the two previous entries; Assaults with a **** load of PPFLD one shotting almost everything.



So if you don't have a problem hitting light mechs what good is knockdown going to do you?



Edit: FWIW, knockdown doesn't help or hurt lights. What makes stunlock especially bad for this game is how it plays out on other classes. Most lights die after a single hit with a bunch of dakka or are so damaged it doesn't matter.

Ghost Heat came because HSR changed how to shoot your guns. Over night hitting stuff became easy heck there was a short period where it was more difficult to hit the standing target in training grounds compared to the real game.
Light Mechs were still difficult to hit especially like it is today at extreme close distances. that is were knockdown came in handy. Stil i played lights when there was knockdown (and rnr) and it was not as bad as people try to convince others.

Not that it matters anymore - MWO is a hardly breathing corpse

[Khobai]

dario03, on 30 September 2019 - 06:42 PM, said:

It doesn't really cost more though. In FP and group drops you need to fit within a certain tonnage but you don't get extra mechs if you go light.

If a 100T mech costs 5 times more than a 20T mech but isnt 5 times more powerful then it absolutely does cost more proportionally.

Thats why most people dont pick 100T mechs and go with heavies instead. Because 100T mechs give you the least bang for your buck in terms of power vs tonnage.

Lights are actually the most efficient mechs in terms of tonnage cost. But because youre limited to 4 mechs and cant just spam like 12+ light mechs most people go with something like 3 heavies and 1 light for their dropdecks.

My point is lights are only bad in this game because youre hardcapped at 4 mechs and cant spam them in your dropdecks. If you could spam more than 4 lights they would not be nearly as bad.

Edited by Khobai, 30 September 2019 - 09:08 PM.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 30 September 2019 - 09:00 PM, said:

If a 100T mech costs 5 times more than a 20T mech but isnt 5 times more powerful then it absolutely does cost more proportionally.

Thats why most people dont pick 100T mechs and go with heavies instead. Because 100T mechs give you the least bang for your buck in terms of power vs tonnage.

Fafnirs and Annihilators are very popular, Dire hero isn't uncommon in FP, other 100t mechs aren't super rare either. Also, some mid sized assaults are probably the most common for clan FP first wave, Mad Cat MKII and Blood Asps will often times make up almost the entire clan first wave. IS first wave is a bit more spread in chassis but will still mostly be assaults.

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Lights are actually the most efficient mechs in terms of tonnage cost. But because youre limited to 4 mechs and cant just spam like 12+ light mechs most people go with something like 3 heavies and 1 light for their dropdecks.

My point is lights are only bad in this game because youre hardcapped at 4 mechs and cant spam them in your dropdecks. If you could spam more than 4 lights they would not be nearly as bad.

Correct you are limited to 4 mechs so the tonnage cost barely matters. Its mostly there to prevent people from running all assaults because those are the actual strongest mechs in the game. You could run 3 lights and something else but that is rarely done (typically only for conquest and even then not many do it) because it is weaker than a heavier deck.

So yes, lights are weaker than the other mechs because you don't get extra drops if you take them. Which is why they cannot be made weaker than they already are and it makes sense that they are stronger than they were in TT and other things.

Edited by dario03, 30 September 2019 - 10:06 PM.

[Comante]

There are so many things that this game could have been, but it will never be.
I agree that there are some tiny mech that are extremely OP, they CAN take an AC20 and survive without issue, and someone is so little that you have hard time hitting them, but at the same time, they have the same number of critical slot of a mech 10 times larger. Many of them can pack larger number of microweapons, packing big damages. There is nothing more discomforting than looking at those crappy mech with the whole torso blazing fire, when my battle master can barely fit 4 LLasers.
And I agree, that matchmaking should be ton matched, more than 12 vs 12 I mean, if would be more meaningful to match 800 tons vs 800 tons, even if the match end up being 8 vs 12 this could make light more useful as they are without tweaking them nonsensically.

[Vxheous]

Comante, on 01 October 2019 - 01:15 AM, said:

There are so many things that this game could have been, but it will never be.
I agree that there are some tiny mech that are extremely OP, they CAN take an AC20 and survive without issue, and someone is so little that you have hard time hitting them, but at the same time, they have the same number of critical slot of a mech 10 times larger. Many of them can pack larger number of microweapons, packing big damages. There is nothing more discomforting than looking at those crappy mech with the whole torso blazing fire, when my battle master can barely fit 4 LLasers.
And I agree, that matchmaking should be ton matched, more than 12 vs 12 I mean, if would be more meaningful to match 800 tons vs 800 tons, even if the match end up being 8 vs 12 this could make light more useful as they are without tweaking them nonsensically.

Wait wut? Battlemaster 1G can fit 6 ER Large Lasers comfortably (with or without XL), please learn to mechlab.

Edited by Vxheous, 01 October 2019 - 01:44 AM.

[MrMadguy]

I have been having this idea for a long time already. Let's add knockdown effect to LBXes to make them more viable. Against Lights for example. Currently Lights don't care about being hit at all. This is just dumb, when they're hit by double Gauss and just run away. There are no hard counters against Lights in this game. Ballistics are hard to aim, Lasers are spreading, Missiles are spreading or just missing, SSRMs and ATMs are dodged by ECM. There should be at least one hard counter against Lights in this game.

[Comante]

Vxheous, on 01 October 2019 - 01:44 AM, said:

Wait wut? Battlemaster 1G can fit 6 ER Large Lasers comfortably (with or without XL), please learn to mechlab.

Well, for starter I have a 1D version, yes you can stick more weapon in it if you don't mind to no put HSinks or to make company to the AHN in the backfield with and underrated engine.

[Prototelis]

Khobai, on 30 September 2019 - 04:45 PM, said:

because you were invincible when you were knocked down.

You were not, you were however unable to be hit until the mech started getting back up due to desync issues.

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Could they have been fixed? probably. PGI never even tried.

The server authoritative nature of this game makes it nigh impossible.

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But is a pirahna 1/5th as good as an assault? No lol. Again you are wrong. Youre always wrong.

You mean the mech that basically has 12 AC2s on table top? lol

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Drop tonnage doesnt work properly when an assault costs 5 times more than a pirahna but isnt 5 times better than a piranha. Thats why drop tonnage in MWO is complete fail.

The PIR-1 isn't 5 times better than assault because it has an outlier amount of DPS.

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And people absolutely DO play lights in all of the other games. Because those games have progression.

Previous games had no progression in their multiplayer; you played what you wanted.

[justcallme A S H]

Comante, on 01 October 2019 - 04:05 AM, said:

Well, for starter I have a 1D version, yes you can stick more weapon in it if you don't mind to no put HSinks or to make company to the AHN in the backfield with and underrated engine.

I think you need to revisit how to kit out a mech, urgently.

[justcallme A S H]

and LOL @ you guys trying to discuss - ANYTHING - with someone who doesn't play MWO (yet posts all day, every day, about it)... And doesn't even understand the tabletop references he makes....

You'll never win guys, he will just disappear from the discussion as he has every single other time when facts come into question.

[dario03]

MrMadguy, on 01 October 2019 - 04:04 AM, said:

I have been having this idea for a long time already. Let's add knockdown effect to LBXes to make them more viable. Against Lights for example. Currently Lights don't care about being hit at all. This is just dumb, when they're hit by double Gauss and just run away. There are no hard counters against Lights in this game. Ballistics are hard to aim, Lasers are spreading, Missiles are spreading or just missing, SSRMs and ATMs are dodged by ECM. There should be at least one hard counter against Lights in this game.

What? LBx is already a good counter for lights, 10 and 20 work great. I need to start saving all the video of the times in FP where I've gone "hi Piranha (wait 2-3 seconds) bye Piranha" because one got near my quad lb10x Fafnir. Make a compilation video for these threads.
And lights care greatly about being hit because they can't take many if any hits.
-Ballistics are hard to aim??? Work on it, that's how you improve. They are already very powerful, if they were any easier to aim they would be to good.
-Lasers spread??? Again work on it or bring pulse.
-Missiles spread??? They do a lot of damage and you can still work on the aim and use skills and quirks for less spread.
-SSRMs and ATMs countered by ECM??? ECM, BAP, Tag, Narc, all things that counter ECM and a lot of lights don't have ECM.
The game has tons of counters for lights, theres many reasons why they are the lowest performing class.

justcallme A S H, on 01 October 2019 - 08:48 AM, said:

and LOL @ you guys trying to discuss - ANYTHING - with someone who doesn't play MWO (yet posts all day, every day, about it)... And doesn't even understand the tabletop references he makes....

You'll never win guys, he will just disappear from the discussion as he has every single other time when facts come into question.

Sometimes I will respond to an individual as a way to respond to the many that hold a similar view on a topic. He isn't the only one that thinks lights should be much weaker than they already are. Though I will say I don't think his and my opinions are that different. I would be ok with lights being weaker if the game had been set up to where you got more mechs if using less tonnage, but its not, so we shouldn't act like it is when discussing balance.

[Vxheous]

Comante, on 01 October 2019 - 04:05 AM, said:

Well, for starter I have a 1D version, yes you can stick more weapon in it if you don't mind to no put HSinks or to make company to the AHN in the backfield with and underrated engine.

Umm, this took me 1 minute to throw together on a Battlemaster 1D (the 1D sucks, but that's the one you're talking about so..)


5 ERLL 21 double heatsinks TC1 and it goes 62 kph..

This is better though:


Battlemaster 1G runs either 6 ERLL, or 5 ERLL + big TC for more range

[Prototelis]

^ Dis right here.

Although, running an ER large trading mech in QP is challenging and not something I would do.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 29 September 2019 - 10:52 PM, said:

Its not just in his imagination though. Earlier versions of mechwarrior had knockdowns. Ballistic weapons also had a knockback effect which forced your mech to torso twist in the opposite direction. And they had terrain deformation and destroyable buildings. In a lot of ways MWO was a step backwards from mechwarrior 3 which came out in 1999 lol.

You are right, but you are also still being unfair. The quality of many of those things in those games would not be an aesthetic fit for the superior quality of everything else in MWO. The sounds are higher quality, the textures are higher quality (yes, it's true!), the model meshes are higher quality (also shockingly true!). To do terrain deformation, destructible buildings, etc. requires a lot more work to blend it in with this higher level of fidelity. To wit, it's not just MWO which lacks those features; most games still do and even titles known for that feature like Battlefield and Red Faction scaled the level of destruction back from previous high points in their respective series.

Lack of knock-back was likely a gameplay decision; in PGI's place I would have made the same one.

Prototelis, on 01 October 2019 - 04:53 PM, said:

^ Dis right here.

Although, running an ER large trading mech in QP is challenging and not something I would do.

How did we lose?

Edited by Y E O N N E, 02 October 2019 - 05:26 PM.

[Mawai]

Khobai, on 30 September 2019 - 04:45 PM, said:

Do you even know what stunlock is? Knockdowns in MWO were never stunlock because you were invincible when you were knocked down. So unless the light mech was by itself (in which case it deserved to die) it was always better to stop shooting the invincible knocked down light mech and shoot a different mech you could actually hurt.

Were knockdowns buggy and glitchy? absolutely. Could they have been fixed? probably. PGI never even tried.

The knocked down mechs weren't invincible. They just weren't rendered in the correct spot on the client. Sweep your lasers around and when the targeting turned red showing damage keep firing at it. When the animation caught up and it stood up, fire at the legs then knock it over again. The Dragon had some added bonus that treated it as a 100ton mech for collision purposes which is why they were favored for the stunlock tactic.

The days of knockdowns were also the days of lag shielded lights and before the days of server state rewind to determine hits and other techniques.

Lights were a bigger threat then simply because lag made them harder to hit, especially by an assault at close range with an assault pilot who didn't know to back up and turn the opposite way so they could catch the light with a shot which needed to be aimed 1-3 mech lengths in front of the light. I loved playing lights then

(It was hilarious when I misjudged using jump jets to hurtle over an enemy assault, hit their head with my feet and tumbled to the ground somewhere behind them ... luckily, most of the time, they were too slow turning around to catch me but if they had team mates there was a good chance I was toast ... but it was loads of fun).

It's odd how most folks remember some of the aspects of the game and not others. However, knock downs at the time were broken and needed to be removed. Unfortunately, any knockdown system will leave the knocked down mech in one location, stationary, usually long enough that with the damage possible in this game they won't be walking away .. which isn't very much fun for the person who was knocked over ... which is probably why the feature hasn't been considered worth the effort to implement again.

Edited by Mawai, 02 October 2019 - 05:49 PM.

[FupDup]

Y E O N N E, on 02 October 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

How did we lose?

Great teamplay!
Easy win