265 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

Has no one said this?

The game is going to be a mesh between Mechwarrior, Btech and 'shudder' Mechassault.
That is a good thing.

[Jackal Noble]

Anomalocaris, on 04 December 2019 - 12:53 PM, said:

I think you're missing the point of Koniving's posts. He's not only describing what he'd like to see in an AI, but he's actually digging into how the UE AI functions work. And that's exactly what PGI is using in MW5 to drive their AI combatants.

So in developing a knowledge base about UE AI functions, he's providing an understanding of what PGI has done and what _can_ be done with the engine. He's laying the groundwork for aftermarket optimization of the AI within the strictures of UE and the desires of the modding community.

Yes, he's pointed out plenty of poorly optimized/constructed/designed behavior in MW5. How could he not, the AI in the demo is pretty weak by any standard. But he's also providing useful information on fixing it, if PGI isn't going to do it.

I've found Koniving irritating at times in the past with his way back posts that felt like they had no relevance to the current game. But on the topic of the MW5 AI, he's doing everyone a favor IMO.

Good intentions are good intentions, amirite?
The context of what is being said comes off as fantastical in a way and from similar posts, almost identically styled posts in the past. That's cool.
But be realistic to an extent in terms of the subject matter.
Do I think a mod that introduces this

or elementals would be cool. Yes of course it would be very cool.
But it's also extremely complex (one that would require animated assets, proper interaction with assets models, further animations, sound, etc etc).
This is my point. It doesn't lend credibility to say this is what is wrong with the A.I. because A, B, C, D and btw this is what I want to see - proceeds to go down an oft tread path of fantastical ideas that would be very complex in practice.
Criticism is great. I'm not trying to stifle criticism on MW5 at all. Just trying to keep the conversation grounded.

Valid points on AI quirkiness and or quality
(Even then I am saying the A.I. does a good job for the game and the experience, that is IMO what is important)

- lance mate AI sometimes gets overwhelmed by multiple targets and proceeds to rapidly switch back and forth. Likely due to engagement policy, range of multiple incoming targets etc
- Friendly fire - I'm torn on this one. Tbh I'm not bothered by it and it is minimal across the many missions I've already run in the demo. Here's a general tip for life, don't walk in front of your fellow soldiers weapons' firing arc. Actually think it would help many a MWO player to learn about walking in front of teammates lol.
-The outer environment textures and models are pretty rough. I'm under the assumption that this has already had quality passes for the finished game.
-A.I. awareness on spawned enemy assets versus present enemy assets at load in- The A.I. 'net' around the player bubble could use some work, to prevent enemy spawns from 'dropping' out of thin air.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 04 December 2019 - 02:12 PM.

[Grimm Shado]

Here's my book report for this thread:

I found Jackal Noble's summary of his MW5 demo experience to the point and useful. It more or less agrees with my own experience. The demo looks good, feels good, and is fun.

After Jackal's initial post there was some back and forth among a good variety of posters. PGI is deservedly dinged for the demo having poor to no joystick support. People debate whether the demo weapons selection represents enough variety, and how long it will take people to find meta loadouts. Also some useful discussion on how salvage and merc company finances will change player behavior relative to the demo. Only a small smattering of salt, probably not over your daily FDA recommended dose even.

Jyi then proceeds to write a small novel using "facts" to "prove" MW5's AI is garbage and thus MW5 will fail and PGI will go bankrupt and anyone who likes MW5 will get AIDS. Jyi and Jackal do a lot of talking past each other. I generally found myself agreeing more with Jackal. Jyi's point of view seems obsessive and strange to me. Koniving writes many detailed asides about mechanics of unreal AI and how it relates to MW5, some of which are a little useful.

In conclusion, I enjoyed driving stompy robots in the demo and shooting other stompy robots. The game ran well on my machine and looks and feels good. Computer controlled teammates and enemies work well enough for me, meaning they don't actively detract from my enjoyment. Jackal's summary of the demo lines up with my own perception, so I generally enjoyed his summary. It is impolite to derail threads into the weeds, instead people should try to stay on the broad topic. Stompy robots are cool.

Edited by Grimm Shado, 04 December 2019 - 02:10 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Grimm Shado, on 04 December 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

Here's my book report for this thread:

I found Jackal Noble's summary of his MW5 demo experience to the point and useful. It more or less agrees with my own experience. The demo looks good, feels good, and is fun.

After Jackal's initial post there was some back and forth among a good variety of posters. PGI is deservedly dinged for the demo having poor to no joystick support. People debate whether the demo weapons selection represents enough variety, and how long it will take people to find meta loadouts. Also some useful discussion on how salvage and merc company finances will change player behavior relative to the demo. Only a small smattering of salt, probably not over your daily FDA recommended dose even.

Jyi then proceeds to write a small novel using "facts" to "prove" MW5's AI is garbage and thus MW5 will fail and PGI will go bankrupt and anyone who likes MW5 will get AIDS. Jyi and Jackal do a lot of talking past each other. I generally found myself agreeing more with Jackal. Jyi's point of view seems obsessive and strange to me. Koniving writes many detailed asides about mechanics of unreal AI and how it relates to MW5, some of which are a little useful.

In conclusion, I enjoyed driving stompy robots in the demo and shooting other stompy robots. The game ran well on my machine and looks and feels good. Computer controlled teammates and enemies work well enough for me, meaning they don't actively detract from my enjoyment. Jackal's summary of the demo lines up with my own perception, so I generally enjoyed his summary. It is impolite to derail threads into the weeds, instead people should try to stay on the broad topic. Stompy robots are cool.

You get an A

[C E Dwyer]

plant your review, and get out of dodge, you'll be happier.

though I agree with you, there are lots of people that will say it sucks for the sake of built up venom, that people are unwilling to admit, P.G.I have made a solid game, not perfect, but solid .

[Ilfi]

Food for thought:
Fallout 76 is a solid game according to our Bethesda Forum equivalents.

[Jyi]

Jackal Noble, on 04 December 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

The more I read your and Jyi's posts about A.I. and what 'you guys think A.I. is' and or how it works I'm realizing you've both bit off more than you can chew. Like seriously, I don't care how many videos you post (from the exact same source) it's not going to influence anyone
No offense, I like your enthusiasm but you have said a lot without actually saying much, if that makes sense to ya.
You leave a long post with lots of words, with neat, fictional seeming ideas full of creative criticisms and fanciful solutions. It's cute at first, but when I have to read through it makes no sense and smacks of insanity.

Ok, so lets look at this:

• I post a video and multiple concise, clear examples of how the AI fails. I say exactly where the AI needs work to be called functional. Pretty much everyone agrees that the things I'm asking for (things like torso twisting or using cover, not just standing still and getting shot in the head etc.) are not too far fetched.
  
• Koniving literally goes inside the Unreal Engine, explains to us how the AI works in UE and how the version in MW5 demo looks like a very basic and rudimentary version of what UE comes with. His findings corraborate pretty much everything I've said. After this he provides multiple examples to how AI can be done in games, and videos to back up his claims. He gives examples of how he'd do things and his plans on how he's trying to fix the AI post release - if it comes to that.
  
• You provide a single picture as a proof that the AI can do what we've already established it can do. Instead of tackling any of our arguments, you unleash an ad hominem -attack after ad hominem -attack. You first say the "AI is fine", but when we prove it's not, you switch your argument to "you don't understand what AI is".

But hey, our posts smack of insanity, not yours.

Grimm Shado, on 04 December 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

Jyi then proceeds to write a small novel using "facts" to "prove" MW5's AI is garbage and thus MW5 will fail and PGI will go bankrupt and anyone who likes MW5 will get AIDS. Jyi and Jackal do a lot of talking past each other. I generally found myself agreeing more with Jackal. Jyi's point of view seems obsessive and strange to me. Koniving writes many detailed asides about mechanics of unreal AI and how it relates to MW5, some of which are a little useful.

Everything I have stated is a fact. I have not lied about anything, and I have posted a video where a couple of these facts can be clearly seen. So why the connotations? I HAVE proven the AI is garbage, it's you who refuse to see it.

You, however, don't seem to be able to stay within facts when you start putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about PGI going bankrupt. Even if this is just supposed to be humorous hyperbole, it comes off as bitter. And once again, it's an ad hominem attack based on your personal opinion instead of being an argument disproving anything I said.

Your argument is basically this: "I like it, so you're wrong."
While my argument is this: "The AI is broken, because it does things it shouldn't and doesn't do things it should."

Quote

It is impolite to derail threads into the weeds, instead people should try to stay on the broad topic. Stompy robots are cool.

Says someone who came here to "do a book review" on someone else's posts instead of saying anything worthwhile.

Stompy robots are cool. I even said as much about MW5. Stompy robots are cool in MW5. Too bad the AI can't drive them properly.

Edited by Jyi, 04 December 2019 - 03:50 PM.

[Burning2nd]

Toothless, on 03 December 2019 - 06:12 AM, said:

Its weird because despite a lifetime of mechwarrior games and love of battletech, starting in 1995 with MW2, I see all of that and still dont want to give PGI any money. It's almost as if over seven years of mismanagement with MWO cant be resolved by screenshots of looks-good-for-2015 graphics, hyperbole, and a bad HUD.

this entire thread will age well..

as said in this post.. my self starting in 87 with mw, then 94,95,96

Im in the same boat,

[Jyi]

Burning2nd, on 04 December 2019 - 03:45 PM, said:

this entire thread will age well..

as said in this post.. my self starting in 87 with mw, then 94,95,96

Im in the same boat,

I started only at 93ish, but hey, me too!

I didn't want to see MW5 fail, and I'm still holding very little hope it won't. But if this AI issue isn't resolved, it's not going to be pretty.

[Jackal Noble]

#dramaqueen

If you want to talk about UE4 and it's implementation, feel free to use THE source.
https://docs.unreale...n-US/index.html

[Koniving]

Jackal Noble, on 04 December 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

The important bit
Example 1 - I'm not sure you realize what happened in that photo, or if your logic created a different, convenient narrative.
I ordered my lancemate AI to follow me -one command, they followed me around the big hill to the back from the city center and then proceeded to auto-engage appropriately. At no point did I issue another command, and despite moving all over and around, not one of the lancemates misread that movement on the cliff and walked off.
Here's why that's impressive - in a sandbox setting it can be difficult for A.I. to recognize terrain and drop off points, or drop-off points that should not be traversed.

What happened was at first I assumed that you got sky footage of three bad guys in Atlases whom intelligently went to a hill they spawned near and engaged you from, which would have been a great demonstration of good enemy AI. I then went to pick it a part in how very simple and basic the AI in mw5 is in order to create that narrative for exactly how that could happen with basic ai scripting one could do using UE's behavioral tree in less than a day, and because of circumstances you'd print the situation off to how smart it is because it behaved like you would in their situation.

Then, once I realized that wasn't possible I read a little more carefully. Okay, Jackal brought his friendly AI around the corner and told them to go to the cliff. Still somewhat impressive but far less cool as it was artificially orchestrated and not done by the AI making decisions.

But now worded as they followed you there, kept formation beside you and started attacking the enemy and you degraded this impressive feat you wanted to share to the level of "I set up three MWO turrets on the cliff and they shot the closest guy such wow much amaze!"

Unfortunately I constructed my own scenario of an amazing moment based on the image of the enemies being able to do that and broke it down so even the most basic real time strategy unit ai could do it in StarCraft... And instead what I really was given as the testament to the AI was a stationary hammer brother from super Mario 3 that will follow you as you move through the level and actually aim at people.

Basically, you presented me with was something the ai from nexon's fireteam can do.
https://youtu.be/fBhhNqJlbgI
Which is literally an aimbot with. 45% chance to hit you (ramping up with difficulty) that snaps around rather than turns and is scripted in it's movement.
I'll try to get a clip tomorrow messing with it to show you what I am talking about.

But in mw5, basically you'd get the same thing if you stood in the dropship and did nothing the AI teammates would take a position around you (basic Pacman AI, Atari in the 70s), and then fire at the most optimal target which for mw5 is identified as "whatever is closest to my longest range weapon unless within range of whatever mid-range weapon I possess" for assaults.

From there it doesn't matter if you are on a hill, under water, or standing next to an ally turret in MWO, you will see the same behavior and thus nothing was impressive about it. If you watch turrets in mwo they lock onto players regardless of where they are, they are all knowing all encompassing aimbots that have the limitation of "twist speed".

Take the turret ai in mwo and put it on legs.
If detect Dorito, aim at Dorito. If aiming at Dorito, shoot Dorito until Dorito is gone.

As I said before though I broke down the circumstances of the AI enemy performing that manuever on you.... The AI didn't even do that. Then It couldn't even get the credit of doing the whole thing on its own after saying "go there" and then the AI coming up with the interpretation of holding the hill on its own. They were walked on the "follow me" state, a leash, and brought there and like dogs they barked with their large lasers and PPCs.

At least let the dog get there on his own.

It's like my daughter. It's meaningless if she's on the counter because I put her there. It's impressive if she built a ramp of boxes and stuff to climb up there to get a sprinkle jar that I hid 2 months ago because she wanted sprinkles.

Shoot your team mates in an old MechWarrior, what happens?
Do it here, what happens?
Block your friend's shot in mw5 what happens? Should your friend shoot through you and kill you to get some apc?
If not, then why don't you see the issue?
If you drop a bullet in the same place for five minutes would a person walk in front of the non-moving gun?
This AI will not only do it but take so much pity on you it will park there and have a beer.

If you were playing in mwo would you want the other players to let you win or play their best within the tier you are in?
Because right now the enemies are geared to let a tier 5 player win on the hardest difficulty available in the demo if you have the recommended tonnage...while playing with a PlayStation 3 controller.

Edited by Koniving, 04 December 2019 - 07:23 PM.

[Jyi]

Jackal Noble, on 04 December 2019 - 05:22 PM, said:

#dramaqueen

If you want to talk about UE4 and it's implementation, feel free to use THE source.
https://docs.unreale...n-US/index.html

Well I'm not the one trying to discredit your person because of difference in opinion. I'm just dismantling your arguments.

And it's funny that I'm meeting so much resistance from the players and customers here, because I'm not trying to ruin MW5, I'm trying to save it and defend our rights as customers to a good game. I'm trying to raise awareness to the fact that the demo isn't delivering what it's supposed to, 2 weeks from release (well, only 5 days now), and to get the developer to 1) fix the problem at least post release and 2) to admit that they've made a mistake.

But instead of having paying customers support me for being on their side (on OUR side, as I am a PAYING CUSTOMER TOO!), I get people like you attacking my person... because you're content with having a supbar product? It's not going to take anything away from you if PGI implements what I am asking - vice versa, it's going to give you more. So why are you so angry at me?

Also, I'm not the one talking about UE, Koniving is. But I think his documentation is excellent.

Edited by Jyi, 04 December 2019 - 05:59 PM.

[Koniving]

Anomalocaris, on 04 December 2019 - 12:53 PM, said:

I've found Koniving irritating at times in the past with his way back posts that felt like they had no relevance to the current game. But on the topic of the MW5 AI, he's doing everyone a favor IMO.

Thank you. Always posted Bout the MW game I hoped mwo would be, the direction it was going at the start before microtransactions became more important. And I understand because they had a lot of money issues (,you can see the stress on Russ's face).

I see mw5 as a chance to make the game I wanted since first picking up mwo, the real time (,well not so much that bit) 1 to 1 time scale simulation of the universe and the war, building up to that clan invasion and our chance to change that fate and make it our own story. The mwo...never delivered to us, the BT/MW experience they hyped but could not deliver without cutting into how microtransactions worked and could be exploited as pay to win (why fight for the cbills to replace lost mechs when you can buy 13 of them for cash?)

I'm just frustrated that even basic mw2 behaviors are missing. That the enemies in mw3 seem more human. That mw4 doesn't seem so laughably goofy when at least as threat to shoot back was backed up.

At death's door with two team mates dead at the hands of your commanding officer that betrays you...and the last AI's last words?
"I could shoot back you know."

But the fact is the ai cannot shoot back. It cannot see you as a threat.
Even SNES games had this...

MechWarrior 1 in 1989 had AI that can see you as a threat if your friendly fire persisted.

30 years...and we downgraded on something so simple.

[Jackal Noble]

A quick 5 min showing of Ansel paired with the Dev tool (controlled via Xboxone controller)
This is pretty fun to mess with.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Koniving, on 04 December 2019 - 06:01 PM, said:

At death's door with two team mates dead at the hands of your commanding officer that betrays you...and the last AI's last words?
"I could shoot back you know."

But the fact is the ai cannot shoot back. It cannot see you as a threat.
Even SNES games had this...

MechWarrior 1 in 1989 had AI that can see you as a threat if your friendly fire persisted.

30 years...and we downgraded on something so simple.

They could enable threat assessment based on friendly fire if they chose to but they didn't 'cause it serves no purpose. If you want to commit war crimes and kill your own lance-mates, do so. Many of us have moved on from such childish "experiments". The lance AI follows commands and does everything you order them to do. They navigate well, have decent enough accuracy and get enough kills. I've run around in a Locust and let my 3 lance-mates be the damage dealers in the Raid mission and we succeeded that mission. If you don't give them any orders, they are still very useful for you on their own.

If PGI enables this, fine. If not, you're very welcome to mod it in.

[Koniving]

Jackal Noble, on 04 December 2019 - 02:00 PM, said:

Valid points on AI quirkiness and or quality
(Even then I am saying the A.I. does a good job for the game and the experience, that is IMO what is important)

- lance mate AI sometimes gets overwhelmed by multiple targets and proceeds to rapidly switch back and forth. Likely due to engagement policy, range of multiple incoming targets etc
- Friendly fire - I'm torn on this one. Tbh I'm not bothered by it and it is minimal across the many missions I've already run in the demo. Here's a general tip for life, don't walk in front of your fellow soldiers weapons' firing arc. Actually think it would help many a MWO player to learn about walking in front of teammates lol.
-The outer environment textures and models are pretty rough. I'm under the assumption that this has already had quality passes for the finished game.
-A.I. awareness on spawned enemy assets versus present enemy assets at load in- The A.I. 'net' around the player bubble could use some work, to prevent enemy spawns from 'dropping' out of thin air.

The last one is patched out of the main game already according to Tina.

But now you are starting to see where we are coming from.

The engagement policy is only 12 words.
12 words not counting defined words. Translated to English that we speak...
If red Doritos is in range(range) of longest ranged weapon equipped, attack.
Prioritize closest target.
(It uses fewer words)

That's the engagement policy.

It exclusively evaluates target by proximity. Even the turret in MWO discerns more viable targets based on leg health!

My issue with enemy AI killing each other is it kills immersion and it Rob's me of saying "I beat this because I'm good.". Instead I can say "I beat this because the AI committed suicide. Was I really that bad? Am I really not fun to play with? You we're winning but you killed your team mates not to give me a chance but because "shoot'em!"??"

This next one is a level/graphic critique and despite having issues with the screen shots pgi put out the game didn't show me any ugly assets.

And I covered the engagement policy.
In comparison...
N64 GoldenEye asks "what state am I in?"
"Am I running? Perform running shoot."
"Am I in position to shoot or is a wall in front of me? Perform a barrel roll starfox!"
"Is someone behind me? Perform a crouching shoot"
"I lost my weapon! Now what? Player is firing, draw my pistol!"

The list goes on and on with 34 possibilities accounted for on 4 megabytes of RAM with a professor that can be emulated on a Pentium one with 16 megabytes of RAM while running Windows 95. (I've done it).

That's why it bugs me so bad. AI was this incredible thing that you needed an 80 dollar an hour coder for...and today I am getting lessons on how to do reactive AI on a YouTube video by a nine year old..

But the professionals that chastised the player base that we know nothing of how to make games... couldn't even get a second line in engagement priorities

(to be fair some classes have engagement priorities more complex but that's the Stalker, one of my favorite mechs and that's all it got.

I spent six years Makin a mod with AI painstakingly coded doing **** I never heard of any game doing before as a teenager... And it was something already done by Oblivion while I was doing it for an FF7-2 in Deus Ex. The radiant AI thing, I spent six years tweaking UE 1.5's ai to do **** like live, mingle, attack each other, follow and break laws...
And if I waited til today it looks like the first three years of work could be done in a few weeksThat problems I spent months solving can be done by stringing together five words on the behavioral tree.

It's so insanely easy now that to fail and miss such basic things like what to do if under fire...are completely missed. The AI has no defined concept of damage. Run away if hurt? The AI hasn't been told that being hurt is bad.

If not for the nav mesh taking care of navigation you could tell it to walk off the cliff and it'd walk off to it's death without a single thought. The only reason it fights is it is told to. It's not part of any tier of desires (Oblivion had a hierarchy of needs in which if a guard had no food and was hungry it would look for food, discover the prisoner has food, and kill the prisoner to fill the need for food. If told it is not allowed to do that it will consider going to a store and buying food. Or well Besthesda solved it by giving the guards lots more food.

So many of the Halo behaviors could never happen.
A change in rules to make pirates act different from the Fedcom army that's not happening because they both have the same ruleset, shoot player until dead or beyond range.

Edited by Koniving, 04 December 2019 - 07:58 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

You say this is what the engagement policy is

prove it.

Honestly, I don't even know why I'm essentially stirring the pot.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 04 December 2019 - 08:01 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Also, your lancemates engage automatically, unless told not too. That is different.

[Koniving]

Jackal Noble, on 04 December 2019 - 07:56 PM, said:

You say this is what the engagement policy is

prove it.

Honestly, I don't even know why I'm essentially stirring the pot.

I'm just getting off lunch at work.
https://assets-cloud...nal/4139285.jpg
But sometime after I get some sleep (I work 5 pm to 5 am, it's just a slow night for quality control here.)

[Koniving]

But to test it, isolate the stalker, kill it's surrounding mechs. Hold fire on your team mates. Stand outside of range. Send ally A into range of large lasers

Stalker will engage that ally.

Point much closer to Stalker, send ally B. Target will change. Recall ally B to your side, Stalker will switch to Ally A.
Put Ally B and A into formation, walk toward Stalker and let the allies be in front. If standing close to each other you will see the target change shuffle.


Or just open it in unreal Ed 4 after copying the game into a sub folder and telling the editor to open it. Then open an AI package from it.

Or wait til tomorrow. . I'd be pumping vids and pics if I was home.

Quick edit.

Please and thanks! It'll give me something to focus on Friday.

Edited by Koniving, 04 December 2019 - 08:38 PM.