13 replies to this topic

[Nearly Dead]

In pickup groups, would you rather have a teammate bring all of the above or more weapons? I seem to live longer with the EW gear, but I almost never see a killing blow, only assists. I am skilling up three Cataphracts, one has all the EW gear and has the full skill tree, the other two only have AMS and the active probe and I am playing them (as much as I can stand) to add skills but don't enjoy them as much and don't live as long. If things go well I hope to have the benefits from getting them skilled up and then never play them again to concentrate on the 0XP.

Related questions:

AMS, how many missiles knocked down does it take to be worthwhile? 15? 30? 100? How much ammo do you bring if you carry AMS? I am carrying 2 or 2 1/2 tons depending on the mech. I have only ever heard the "AMS ammo 25%" warning once during a long match. I think perhaps I am carrying more than necessary, but one ton doesn't seem like enough.

If at the end of the match, you see Proximity Protection, what does that actually mean to your teammates? Do they even notice a difference? Is it the ECM and AMS coverage that matters or just being a meatshield and engaging the mechs trying to kill them?

Thanks and good hunting.

[Bud Crue]

To answer your question most directly: I suspect the more competent players will tell you that in Quick Play what they would want you to bring is high DPS builds or at least optimized builds. AMS, ECM and other “support” gear is not sufficiently beneficial to outweigh the cost to an otherwise optimized build.

In terms of your 0XP, the loss of the ECM doesn’t gain you much in terms of potential performance so I would leave it there, especially since you say you already have that aspect skilled. Plus with a mech that cumbersome, it is useful to hit counter when the inevitable stealthed lights go for your back. Heck, you might even want to go all in, and make a stealth build yourself just for the occasional opportunities that it provides when some of the more dim sighted players ignore you. A single AMS isn’t worth much and is not worth the loss of a heat sink or whatever compromise you are making to put it in there. If you still insist on putting one on (edit), then 2 1/2 tons of ammo is way excessive.

Edited by Bud Crue, 31 December 2019 - 07:03 AM.

[Spheroid]

Significant differences in weapon type and hardpoint location exist among Cataphract variants. Because of this it is not appropriate to attribute perceived combat ability to only what minor auxiliary equipment your mech is carrying.

Three Cataphracts carry XL engines stock, of course those variants will not last as long under fire as the 280STD the 0XP.

You say you have all the EW equipment on the XP. Please note that when ECM is equipped you lose the default CECM function of a BAP if those two items are equipped simultaneously. For that reason such a combination is often considered dead weight.

2+ tons of ammo for AMS is absolutely excessive. Often in quickplay even half a ton is adequate. You can manually shutoff AMS as well while in cover which further extends its longevity and decreases drawing attention to your position.

Edited by Spheroid, 31 December 2019 - 09:35 AM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

As Bud Crue said above, while AMS, ECM and Beagle are useful, damage is even more useful. So don’t compromise damage to get them. You are not good to your team when dead, so don’t compromise armor or too much speed to get them. What this means is that they are the last thing to install in your build using the last few tons - if at all.

Usually you will want only 1 of them because they tend to interfere with each other. As said above, beagle does not counter ecm if you have your own ecm on disrupt. Your ecm tends to prevent lrm locks (for your nearby buddies too) , so AMS is less significant. ECM (without stealth) is only useful from afar. In brawling distances it makes little difference. Beagle/CAP is useful mostly for streaks builds and less so for lrms that do not carry a tag.

AMS is the most group friendly of them because it linearly stacks with AMSs of your buddies to provide a combined iron dome defense system. If you can carry multiple AMSs, or combine them with a friend’s you can completely nullify some missile builds. It is hilarious to watch an enemy’s lrm/atm volley completely disappearing in small flickers before reaching anywhere.

[Lykaon]

Here is my take on how I use ECM and AMS.

ECM on a light mech I brought for team support in one way or another. Either to allow me to get in close to priority target or rapidly move to relieve a team member getting Lurmed. The speed and agility of the light mech allows me to bring the ECM to where it's needed quickest. I do not favor ECM Sniper builds I prefer ECM hitman builds with loads of close up firepower.

Conversely ECM on a heavier slower mech can not be moved about so easily so I use a heavy mech with ECM to protect myself mainly and any friendlies close by. I will not generally move my heavy ECM mech to cover distant friendlies once I have committed my mech to combat.

AMS... one ton max per AMS unit. You shouldn't need more than 1 ton if you team can be even slightly reactive and decisive. No amount of AMS ammo will save a team that doesn't engage.

One combo of note is ECM + AMS on the same mech. When I do this the AMS is for the team's defense mostly. I move my Kitfox to about 100-200m ahead of my team ( if it's sensable to do so) so the incoming LRMs get max exposure to the triple AMS.

[FRAGTAST1C]

I bring AMS on mechs that can boat 2 or more. For e.g., the Black Knight has 2 AMS and I bring 1.5t of ammo on it. It is enough for QP matches

ECM on the other hand is pretty good regardless of what mech has it. If you're thinking of ECM in terms of team "support", then stop right there. ECM is your shield to damage enemies without getting return fire in most situations. If teammates are inside your ECM bubble, then great. They can stay concealed but that's about it. ECM is for you. It is up to your teammates to decide whether they want your ECM cover or not.

Even a Kitfox Purifier that can bring 3 AMS + ECM + 5 ERML, it is still a killing machine. Don't think of it as a support mech. Just stay close to the Charlie lance but not behind them. Stay close enough so that your AMS can shoot down missiles before they hit your teammates and your ECM keeps you and whoever is near you, both concealed. You need to rack up the damage with the 5 ERML + Arty/Air strikes.

[Nightbird]

ECM sure, other items, no

[Aidan Crenshaw]

The equipment question is mostly covered, i think.


Regarding your Question about "Protection Proximity": Stay in a radius of 150 meters to a damaged friendly 'Mech (critical damage). Be engaged.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 03 January 2020 - 12:29 AM.

[Davegt27]

just talking about me personally and to be honest

nothing really has an impact on my avg anything
week mechs strong mechs
ECM, meta, non meta, bap, tag, you name it

a few times over the last 5 years I would stumble on a build and do 1400 dmg
but I have never even come close to repeating those results

if I would to go further
from 2014 until 2016 I had tons of disconnects
when the disconnects went away you would think my stats would improve but nope they got worse

I keep a paper next to my keyboard and mark down my wins and looses after every match
might be a good idea to do something similar??

GLHF

[jss78]

These conversations can swing to too great extremes.

As far as the support great compromising your combat ability, even ECM + double/triple AMS doesn't weigh that much, especially on a clan 'mech. About one large laser worth of tonnage, give or take.

On the flip side, it can be a trap to think of you as a "support 'mech". You're still packing significant weaponry, and while your support gear can excuse you doing a little bit less damage, it doesn't excuse doing miserable damage.

[Prototelis]

Both clan mechs that take triple AMS have to make considerable tradeoffs in firepowers/sustained DPS to do so.

The one clan mech that takes quad AMS is pretty much combat ineffective even without AMS.

The only mech that takes redonk AMS without giving up a lot is the Corsair 7a; which gets away with it because it's hardpoints relegate most builds to the loadout of a heavy mech anyways.

[Moochachoo]

it’s hard to say, it depends on the map, I mean the same could be said about any load outs in general, do you go long range or brawl, you would be pretty ok with a few dedicated LRM boats for polar highland, or run jump jets for mining collective.

[ShiverMeRivets]

Prototelis, on 03 January 2020 - 04:59 PM, said:

Both clan mechs that take triple AMS have to make considerable tradeoffs in firepowers/sustained DPS to do so.

The one clan mech that takes quad AMS is pretty much combat ineffective even without AMS.

The only mech that takes redonk AMS without giving up a lot is the Corsair 7a; which gets away with it because it's hardpoints relegate most builds to the loadout of a heavy mech anyways.

Multiple AMS on a light mech do come as a significant tradeoff to its firepower or speed. A Nova can handle 3 ams when loaded as a laser boat - but it can take 2 if it really needs that but extra tonnage.

There are plenty of dual AMS mechs in both sides. Multiple AMS are better employed on heavier mechs for several reasons:
1. They can spare the tonnage.
2. They are slow and tend to sick together with their kind, thus their AMS covers multiple friendlies.
3. They are slow to move into cover and thus attract a lot of lrm fire which they cannot dodge as light mechs can.
The Corsair 7A with its quad AMS mentioned above the the best example, but there are several other assults with dual AMS.

[Unnatural Growth]

In pugs, I'd actually prefer you didn't bring a Cataphract. That mech got smoked by the steady power creep of newer mechs with better and more hardpoints, and larger engine caps. Cataphracts used to be great. In closed beta. Even open beta they weren't too bad. Now?

OP,

Bring what you want. It's pugs. Goal is to have fun.