463 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

In your example Nascar worked.



(19 laps boys)

Edited by Prototelis, 07 February 2020 - 05:04 PM.

[Groutknoll]

VROOOOOOM !!!!

[Prototelis]

^ Nascar with a pit crew and a pace car.

Edited by Prototelis, 08 February 2020 - 01:20 AM.

[Void Angel]

Hazeclaw, on 07 February 2020 - 09:50 AM, said:

Straw man horse crap, with an altered fake quote like this one tacked on (itself also a straw man.)

/sigh. You must be new to the forums, or maybe I've just been inactive for too long, if you think this kind of sophistry is going to work very well on me.

Did it really seem like you'd get away with claiming that I just want to "sandbag teammates" to get shots on the enemy's back, when I point out that I'm an Atlas driver in the same quote you mangled? Maybe that's why you altered the quote.

What you're trying to do here is a form of equivocation fallacy, the No True Scotsman, in pursuit of an argument from definition - all while playing Voice of the People. You essentially claim that "Nascar" only applies to failed instances of the tactic: "Nascar is when a team rotates counter clockwise with no regard for their own or the enemy teams position." In essence, Nascar is only Nascar when it is done wrong, and thus nearly always fails. This is a bad definition, because it contains an implicit conclusion; you picked it because you dislike the tactic and want it to be discontinued - don't bother denying it, your choice of insults ad slurs when smearing those who object to your private definition has made that clear.

I gave you a real definition: mutual rotation around a central terrain feature, and gave you an explanation of how it works and why people do it. You were unable to refute (and possibly to understand) my explanation, and so you responded by misrepresenting it in an altered quote bubble, accused me of being a bad person, and re-iterated the bad idea - apparently in the hope that if you repeat an untruth enough times, it'll seem less wrong.

Spare me the amateur sophistry and yourself the embarrassment. Try supporting your ideas instead - shoddy thought and bad sophistry will not carry the day.

[K O Z A K]

Prototelis, on 08 February 2020 - 01:15 AM, said:

^ Nascar with a pit crew and a pace car.

since red team didn't nascar in that drop, I'm glad you've accepted that it takes 1 team to nascar

Void Angel, on 08 February 2020 - 02:49 AM, said:

bunch of currently popular buzzwords still having nothing to do with the discussion in this thread

Your previous post can be summarized as "nascar is a solid tactic and you don't like it because you're not good at it". The discussion we're having is what is nascar. In a way by describing nascar as a tactic you're actually supporting my argument.

The idea that you can be good at nascar is a joke, it literally takes 5 seconds to figure out how it works and how to do it, and you become l33t nascarer. If you're nascaring with an assault I would say you're screwing your team over even more since instead of shooting the enemy you're running from them, but the reality is that if you don't, they surely will screw you over so at this point there's hardly getting away from it.

You don't like that I don't like nascar? You don't like that I call it out for what it is: using your teammate as speed bumps, using up all their armor so you can get behind enemy mechs? That's too bad, I call things the way I see them. If you're nascaring and leaving mechs behind you are actively screwing them over in the hopes of free damage. You can say it's their fault for being slow, but if they are already engaging the enemy, they are where they need to be, and you're not.

Everyone on your team except for lights/fast mediums (who are the only ones who should nascar) should be fighting for better map control positions, all mechs facing the enemy, not turning their back to the enemy and running away from it hoping to outrun the other team. Nascar generally fails, because it results in loss of key control positions, it results in needless loss of mechs, often the ones with the most firepower, but you can still win because the enemy's nascar has failed even more.

Edited by Hazeclaw, 08 February 2020 - 10:39 AM.

[Vxheous]

I don't like nascar, but that's not the point, it's how solo queue is played now, so either adapt to it, or get overrun as your team runs away from you.

[K O Z A K]

Vxheous, on 08 February 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

I don't like nascar, but that's not the point, it's how solo queue is played now, so either adapt to it, or get overrun as your team runs away from you.

100%. QP = Nascar for a long time now. I dunno why though but it still bothers me when people try to explain how nascar is some advanced tactic to achieve victory though and not just everyone will be doing dumb s**t so I have no choice but to join, lol

[Void Angel]

Again with the straw man nonsense - you still haven't actually rebutted a single thing I've said, though you've liberally added imaginary opinions to my own. Please, you're not "calling it what it is," you're whining about the facts of life, using bad arguments and engaging in misbehavior when your invalid arguments are challenged. Doubling down won't make you any less wrong, and being intransigent in the face of arguments you can't counter isn't a virtue. Presenting false "summaries" of arguments you dislike, trying to hand-wave it all away as "buzzwords" is infantile and improper. Writing out long-winded rebuttals to things I haven't said, is just embarrassing yourself. When I was a little boy, we called this sort of thing "lying."

Don't lie. Stand or fail on your ideas' own merits - to attempt otherwise is simply to admit their inadequacy.

"Nascar" isn't bad players being lazy and bad; it's a direct outworking of map design in the PuG environment. Dislike it as much as you like. You would be shocked how little I care what you do or don't like; my interest is in opposing bad thought and errant sophistry.

[K O Z A K]

Void Angel, on 08 February 2020 - 12:34 PM, said:

Again with the straw man nonsense - you still haven't actually rebutted a single thing I've said, though you've liberally added imaginary opinions to my own. Please, you're not "calling it what it is," you're whining about the facts of life, using bad arguments and engaging in misbehavior when your invalid arguments are challenged. Doubling down won't make you any less wrong, and being intransigent in the face of arguments you can't counter isn't a virtue. Presenting false "summaries" of arguments you dislike, trying to hand-wave it all away as "buzzwords" is infantile and improper. Writing out long-winded rebuttals to things I haven't said, is just embarrassing yourself. When I was a little boy, we called this sort of thing "lying."

Don't lie. Stand or fail on your ideas' own merits - to attempt otherwise is simply to admit their inadequacy.

"Nascar" isn't bad players being lazy and bad; it's a direct outworking of map design in the PuG environment. Dislike it as much as you like. You would be shocked how little I care what you do or don't like; my interest is in opposing bad thought and errant sophistry.

What are you going on about? You can keep calling my opinion straw man or w/e else you want, it will not dismiss anything I said nor make you sound any smarter. What am I supposed to rebut? You walked in on a discussion and for some reason tried to start a different topic aimed at me with a wall of text with no meaning behind it. Your last post is even worse, the entire thing is just a personal attack on me with like a single sentence (last paragraph first sentence) in the whole thing that has anything even remotely to do with what we're discussing.

Nascar is absolutely bad players being lazy and bad, and also selfish and scared to the point of risking defeat for the sake of their selfishness. It's become so wide spread that even good players have no choice but do it because when they hold a dominating position over the enemy their bad, lazy and selfish teammates will run away from them.

[Prototelis]

Hazeclaw, on 08 February 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

since red team didn't nascar in that drop, I'm glad you've accepted that it takes 1 team to nascar

A single team cannot nascar.

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar works every time.

In the above example both 6 man teams attempted to rotate; Nascar occured, one team lost, and nascar worked.

Edited by Prototelis, 08 February 2020 - 04:06 PM.

[K O Z A K]

Cmon, now you're just being ridiculous. Red team didn't rotate.

[Prototelis]

Uhm, yes they did?

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 08 February 2020 - 04:06 PM, said:

Nascar occured, one team lost, and nascar worked.

[color=#222222]Nascar occured, one team lost, and nascar failed.[/color]

[Prototelis]

Again, you don't understand.

Nascar is not a tactic. It is an event.

Nascar resolved that match; nascar worked.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 08 February 2020 - 05:16 PM, said:

Nascar is not a tactic. It is an event.

Nascar resolved that match; nascar worked.

If Nascar is an event it doesn't resolve the match, it's a contributing factor.

[Prototelis]

Uh, okay. Statement still valid then. (you're agreeing that you can't actually control nascar and it therefor has no bearing on your personal success. You can however control the rotation and employ rotation to achieve personal success)

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, Nascar works every time.

Edited by Prototelis, 08 February 2020 - 05:32 PM.

[General Solo]

VonBruinwald, on 08 February 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

[color=#222222]Nascar occured, one team lost, and nascar failed.[/color]

Editted to add quote

So one team lost!
What about the other Team?
Did they win or was it a Tie?

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 08 February 2020 - 05:34 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

OZHomerOZ, on 08 February 2020 - 05:33 PM, said:

Editted to add quote

So one team lost!
What about the other Team?
Did they win or was it a Tie?

When two teams Nascar, it has a 50% success rate, one team wins, one team loses.

Saying it works is a misnomer.

You might as well say PGI's balance decisions work because one team always wins.

[K O Z A K]

Prototelis, on 08 February 2020 - 05:08 PM, said:

Uhm, yes they did?

Uhm, no they didnt. Bro you may need glasses. One light and one medium went around, the rest of the team remained still. That's not nascaring when only 2 fast mechs go around.

[Prototelis]

Hazeclaw, on 08 February 2020 - 05:47 PM, said:

One light and one medium went around

Cool, both teams rotated, nascar occured.

The nascar event does not require everyone on both teams to rotate; nascar allows spectators.

VonBruinwald, on 08 February 2020 - 05:45 PM, said:

Saying it works is a misnomer.

No, it isn't.

Nascar isn't a strategy. It is an event. You, the individual, cannot control it. You can control the basic parts (rotation) and so asking whether or not the event will generate personal success for you is the misnomer.

Ask not if nascar will win for you, ask how you will win in a nascar.

Edited by Prototelis, 08 February 2020 - 05:56 PM.