41 replies to this topic

[Burnsidhe]

I'm honestly surprised that the Clans have survived as long as they have.

Nicholas Kerensky was insane. Literally. Read up on it, the man suffered numerous illnesses and fevers and was *never* "quite all there" in the head.

The way he set up Clan society combined an eugenics program and a caste system, with the worship of the culture of 'the honorable warrior', along with some extremely childish notions. Among the most annoying of which is this insistence on not using contractions in speech. Only children speak without using contractions, and that's because their brains haven't matured.

Basically, the Clans come across as a boyish fantasy of an ideal society, rather than a real, living culture of actual people. A parody, a caricature.

In addition, they're all strategically inept. In the focus on tactics and on individual skill, the study of logistics is apparently a severely neglected art. Amateur strategists study battles. Professional strategists study logistics. The Clans have no professional strategists, it seems.

Finally, Nicholas had no authority over any member of the SLDF. No medic could ethically approve his induction into the armed forces, there's no sign that Aleksandr even tried to get him in that I know of, and he held no position in the civilian side of things once Aleksandr started drawing down the armed portion of the SLDF in exile.

Basically, he's no better than any of the Star Lords... a brutal dictator and usurper of the rightful command structure.

Edited by Burnsidhe, 25 July 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[FireNova]

In b4 SJ hater post.......

[Stormwolf]

Sounds like dezgra Inner Sphere propaganda to me.

[Thoman Coston]

troll alert! Don't get baited into a silly multiple page argument.

[Thorn Hallis]

Wasn't little Nicky an officer in the 146th Royal Battlemech divison?

[Aaron DeChavilier]

yes he was thorn. Love how man forges a society of meritocracy...by using the status of his lineage as a seat of authority.
Also, the Khan of Clan Wolverine called him on the carpet about this before their annihilation, turns out every other clan didn't care that autocracy wasn't the Star League's ideals.

[Stormwolf]

Seriously, why do the Clans always get called out for being evil?

Go read any of the Gray Death Legion or Wolf's Dragoons books:
- The Lyrans are willing to hand over worlds to freaking pirates because they can't be bothered to help them. Never mind all the pillaging and raping that will occur under the new management.
- The Draconis Combine will massacre entire populations for not submitting to them, yet they are the biggest crybabies when the Smoke Jaguars reverse the situation on them. How atrocious that they use naval lasers instead of firing squads.
- Comstar. let's kill 12 million people and blame it on a merc unit, my heroes!

The list goes on for quite a bit, but you get my drift.

Edited by Stormwolf, 26 July 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[Burnsidhe]

Evil? Not particularly evil. But the Clans are no better than any of the Inner Sphere realms.

I'm surprised that Nicholas was allowed into the SLDF. A basic psych test should have shown his mental instability. Even so... Nicholas was not near the top of the chain of command. Even the 'second exodus' he led was very likely against orders.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Stormwolf, on 26 July 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Seriously, why do the Clans always get called out for being evil?

- starts war by invasion to 'save people'
- destabilizes a system on its way to stability
- conquers 1/3 of a major nation state (FRR/DC)
- upon defeat does not relinquish conquered territory
- above just proves that clans are no better than IS houses.
- important note: IS houses acknowledge this, clan pretends to ignore it then still believe they're better

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 26 July 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Funny how he posted this in the Clan section. I smell a troll.

Burnsidhe, on 26 July 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Evil? Not particularly evil. But the Clans are no better than any of the Inner Sphere realms.

I'm surprised that Nicholas was allowed into the SLDF. A basic psych test should have shown his mental instability. Even so... Nicholas was not near the top of the chain of command. Even the 'second exodus' he led was very likely against orders.

How about you do some reading before you make utter silly statements like that.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 26 July 2012 - 01:08 PM.

[Stormwolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 26 July 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

- starts war by invasion to 'save people'

Hey, remember those 4 succession wars + the War of 3039? Me neither.
The Clans invaded once and kept the agreement to not invade any further after the Great Refusal. The Successor States can't even have a meeting without two heads of state declaring war on each other.

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- destabilizes a system on its way to stability

Not quite sure what you mean with this one

Quote

- conquers 1/3 of a major nation state (FRR/DC)

Yeah so? The FC conquered 1/3 of the Capellan holdings, no foul there.
And what are you expecting here? They don't travel from planet to planet to hand out free Kerensky candy.

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- upon defeat does not relinquish conquered territory

If you win it in a trial of possession then sure, but the IS doesn't really give anything back without force.
Verthandi anybody?

Quote

- above just proves that clans are no better than IS houses.

Sure they are, Clans fight away from cities and industrial complexes to minimize damage and loss of life, the IS would rather blow up a factory with all the workers inside to prevent it from falling into enemy hands.

Quote

- important note: IS houses acknowledge this, clan pretends to ignore it then still believe they're better

Ever read a novel featuring Hanse Davion?
Seriously, only Victor Steiner-Davion and Hohiro Kurita are easy going, everybody else would't mind to inflict genocide on their neighbors while proclaiming that they are the good guys. Thomas Marik really takes the cake here if you're up to speed on the Jihad and its endgame.

And for a contrast look at Ulric Kerensky in BoK, the guy is a friggin hero compared to all the guys I mentioned above.

Edited by Stormwolf, 26 July 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[AlexEss]

- destabilizes a system on its way to stability


Not quite sure what you mean with this one

<--- FRR They had just won their independence when the clans came crashing in. It was not much left of it by the time they where done. Either that or he refers to the IS recovering from the last war. either way both are linked.

But apart from that i would not call them evil, not more so then any other invading force, stupid and about as tactically sound as a squid with a nuke but not evil. Word of Blake otoh...Their leaders were loco for cocopuffs.

Edited by AlexEss, 26 July 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[Joelku]

Love em or hate em Clan Wolf is the only reason the IS didn't get steamrolled because they did everything they could to mess up the invasion for the crusader Clans.

[Fobok]

This is what I love about Battletech. There are no good guys.

Well, ok, there's people with good intentions. Phelan Ward/Kell, Victor Steiner-Davion, Kai Allard-Liao. Good intentions don't mean they always do the good thing, though. Phelan betrayed his people and later killed Conal Ward in cold blood, Victor ordered the assassination of Ryan Steiner and led his people in a civil war that caused a lot of collateral damage, not to mention arranged for the destruction of an entire nation (Clan Smoke Jaguar), Kai... ok, bad example.

In any case, no, the Clans aren't any more evil than any other faction. Nor are they any better, morally speaking, as a whole.

In the end, everybody's human. You get good individuals and bad individuals, and lots of people in the middle.

[xxREVxx]

Burnsidhe, on 26 July 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Evil? Not particularly evil. But the Clans are no better than any of the Inner Sphere realms.

I'm surprised that Nicholas was allowed into the SLDF. A basic psych test should have shown his mental instability. Even so... Nicholas was not near the top of the chain of command. Even the 'second exodus' he led was very likely against orders.

Sacrilege!!

[SakuranoSenshi]

It does read as a somewhat childish attempt to troll by stating what's hardly a novel assessment of the man or the society that ultimately resulted at least partially from his actions.

As for 'evil', come on, this is "real life" albeit a fictional one. There is no good or evil, there is only the grey mess in between where people juggle their own aims and interests with those of the rest of humanity and the more admirable human beings will put those of humanity at large ahead of their own, most of the time. Clans are full of hateful, stupid people, just as the Inner Sphere nations are. Clans have a few bright lights, just as the Inner Sphere nations do. Both the Clans and Inner Sphere are mostly made up of people somewhere in the middle, in terms of their knowledge, intelligence and likelihood of acting in the interests of everyone rather than just themselves.

Edited by SakuranoSenshi, 26 July 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Stormwolf, on 26 July 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

point proven about not accepting shortcomings in 3...2....1...

you can throw all the history books at me you'd like. Oh wait, a little historical context then to fit the book throwing.

Time of existence for Inner Sphere (roughly 24th century) ~750 years.
Time of existence for Clans ~250 years

Clans have been fighting since they were founded, sword raiding as hard as the IS. Given enough time, the Clans are on par with IS.
At some point though, the IS learned to stop fighting for a little bit and try some peace, sure it doesn't always turn out right but at least its better than dueling every neighbor and their mom over the stupidest things.

Again, no one is saying the IS is good, just that the clans are just as bad but won't accept it, and you're my case in point

[Stormwolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 26 July 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

Again, no one is saying the IS is good, just that the clans are just as bad but won't accept it, and you're my case in point

I never said they were good, I just said that they were better then the IS.
Trial style combat is far more humane then your average IS brush wars.

[Monsoon]

Only Clans worth mentioning are Clan Wolverine and Clan Smoke Jaguar. They were so bad ***, they needed to be ganged up on to be destroyed.

But seriously, the Clans for the most part are not any better then the IS, in some ways you could say they're better, in other ways allot worse. Well everyone's better the Liao, but that's a given.

Edited by Monsoon, 26 July 2012 - 11:17 PM.

[TANTE EMMA]

SAVASHRI !!! The Clans even evacuate whole populations from planets, to make sure, that the civilian casualties are kept at a minimum.
Clan Wolverine, you must be kidding you surat. A clan that commits genocide by employing a nuclear warhead.

The Clans are better than the IS.