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Has Pgi Done This On Purpose?


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#1 Vellron2005

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 03:54 AM

Hey guys, I just had a funny thought..

Has PGI deliberately omitted to fine-polish MW5 so that moders would have a playground of their own?

I mean some pretty obvious things were left out from release.

Things like changing the color of the HUD. Or it's shape. Or where the mini-map is. Or changing Merc Unit logo, or advanced zoom, or selling from cold storage, or saving paint schemes, and things like that?

I know PGI wanted to extend the shelf-life of the game via Mods, and it has certainly done that, but some of these things seem pretty deliberately missing from the game?

What do you think?

Edited by Vellron2005, 18 February 2020 - 03:58 AM.


#2 N0MAD

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 05:06 AM

they released minimally viable product as usual cause thats all they are capable of doing, dont over think it.

#3 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 08:52 AM

Some of the things they're adding. For e.g., they added the option to sell from Cold Storage. For the rest of the things, they'll want to make sure to provide a very complete game editor to help the community complete their game. Heck, the community will probably remove the "suck" from MW5 once they can start altering the missions.

#4 Vellron2005

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 05:11 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 18 February 2020 - 08:52 AM, said:

Heck, the community will probably remove the "suck" from MW5 once they can start altering the missions.


I'm sort of really hoping the community will not only remove the "suck", such as it is, but will also provide many new fun missions in their own right..

I just hope they don't go too crazy and make it overpowered.. Staying within the game's base limits and timeframes should be maintained.

#5 Sjorpha

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 05:15 PM

Yeah, it's all some ingenious master plan. Release a garbage game to provoke more modding...

Or maybe they just aren't good at making games? Or they don't care if the game is good? One of those seem more likely IMO.

#6 9erRed

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 05:08 PM

Greetings all,

Related, where are all the ground personnel that the intro MW5 movie showed?
- As the Mech leaves the hanger there are tech's and infantry standing or running around, was this just for the movie?
- And/or found to be far too taxing on the render to leave in the game.

Are the infantry art assets still in the files?
- For the ground personnel we do see some very limited elements in the Mech bay during the mission loading screen. A lot more could be done with these art units to add some sense of urgency, and generally just getting Mechs ready. (that guy walking 10 feet and turning around to do it again is "really" starting to get annoying.)
- Possibly have a few different Mech bay fluff backgrounds that change, showing operating some of the loading equipment that was common in a Mech hanger.
*** Yes, I understand that $ versus time versus game usability may have indeed played a large roll in not having that part of the game (hanger bay) being more interesting.

But what happened to the Infantry? Yes, they are not that much of a threat to most Mechs. But they can wield TAG and NARC systems that will pose a threat very soon for all Mechs. I was hoping that the Urban Warfare DLC might include ground forces and more bunkers and turrets, didn`t happen. Back to that question - are the infantry elements still in the files.

All for now,
9erRed
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#7 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 06:47 PM

There are animated human NPC if you dig into the game assets. They're not implemented fully 'cause PGI....

#8 KW Driver

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 10:20 AM

View PostSjorpha, on 22 February 2020 - 05:15 PM, said:

Yeah, it's all some ingenious master plan. Release a garbage game to provoke more modding...

Or maybe they just aren't good at making games? Or they don't care if the game is good? One of those seem more likely IMO.


Haven't been around video games long, have you? Proven fact: Video games that cater to modding have a longer shelf life than games that do not... the biggest proof of this is probably the Microsoft Flight Simulator franchise, which despite the core code being almost 15 years old now, is STILL selling copies. Also look at games such as the ArmA series, Half Life and Half Life 2, Euro Truck Simulator 2, Falcon 4.0, and we could go on and on. For single player games, especially, modding extends the playability of the game to well beyond a publisher's development cycle and drastically increases the replayability value to the customer. It also allows for customers to develop content that the developer may not be legally able to include (ie with the aforementioned games, the lack of expensive licensing agreements with real world manufacturers).

For a competitive online multiplayer environment, modding is not desirable, nor should it be, as the players should be forced to stay with the game as the developer intended it, but for a single player, or co-op game, the ability to customize the experience is one that a huge number of customers look for. And fact of the matter is, the player base is FAR more expansive and because of that in most cases can be more creative than any development team ever assembled. No game developer has ever had thousands of employees working on a single product, but that is what you get when modders take hold of the product: Thousands of people working to improve the product in a multitude of ways that is just not possible from any developer in the world.

Now, if you think you can do better, by all means, do a Bill Gates, pony up the cash, and start your own development studio, and let's see what you can do. But before you embarrass yourself, go check out many indie developer pages and read carefully the challenges that they all faced getting started and getting their products out the door, and the dozens upon dozens of setbacks and failures. Pavel at SCS Software is pretty forthcoming with the challenges he has faced, as is Raphael over at Hinterland Games.

Most game developers that produce products that are designed to be modded are actually only supplying a platform, with very limited assets, which makes the product less expensive to produce, and they can concentrate on maintaining functionality and quality control over the core platform rather than trying to do that as well as release new content that will meet customers' ever growing expectations. By going this route, I suspect that in the future, we will see some DLC releases and feature upgrades available, but mostly what we will see is engine upgrades and streamlining.

In a nutshell, there is nothing wrong with publishing a game with modding support built into it, provided the developer makes it perfectly clear that there is absolutely no technical support for a modded game, and that the developer emphasizes that modders are responsible for maintaining their own content and the developer is not under any obligation to ensure that mods continue to maintain any compatability. And every developer that has opened mod support has been amazed at what users provide in the way of fresh, additional content.

As John Lydgate paraphrased Abraham Lincoln so well, "You can please some of the people all the time, or you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all the time."

#9 Brauer

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 10:46 AM

View PostKW Driver, on 26 February 2020 - 10:20 AM, said:


Haven't been around video games long, have you? Proven fact: Video games that cater to modding have a longer shelf life than games that do not... the biggest proof of this is probably the Microsoft Flight Simulator franchise, which despite the core code being almost 15 years old now, is STILL selling copies. Also look at games such as the ArmA series, Half Life and Half Life 2, Euro Truck Simulator 2, Falcon 4.0, and we could go on and on. For single player games, especially, modding extends the playability of the game to well beyond a publisher's development cycle and drastically increases the replayability value to the customer. It also allows for customers to develop content that the developer may not be legally able to include (ie with the aforementioned games, the lack of expensive licensing agreements with real world manufacturers).

For a competitive online multiplayer environment, modding is not desirable, nor should it be, as the players should be forced to stay with the game as the developer intended it, but for a single player, or co-op game, the ability to customize the experience is one that a huge number of customers look for. And fact of the matter is, the player base is FAR more expansive and because of that in most cases can be more creative than any development team ever assembled. No game developer has ever had thousands of employees working on a single product, but that is what you get when modders take hold of the product: Thousands of people working to improve the product in a multitude of ways that is just not possible from any developer in the world.

Now, if you think you can do better, by all means, do a Bill Gates, pony up the cash, and start your own development studio, and let's see what you can do. But before you embarrass yourself, go check out many indie developer pages and read carefully the challenges that they all faced getting started and getting their products out the door, and the dozens upon dozens of setbacks and failures. Pavel at SCS Software is pretty forthcoming with the challenges he has faced, as is Raphael over at Hinterland Games.

Most game developers that produce products that are designed to be modded are actually only supplying a platform, with very limited assets, which makes the product less expensive to produce, and they can concentrate on maintaining functionality and quality control over the core platform rather than trying to do that as well as release new content that will meet customers' ever growing expectations. By going this route, I suspect that in the future, we will see some DLC releases and feature upgrades available, but mostly what we will see is engine upgrades and streamlining.

In a nutshell, there is nothing wrong with publishing a game with modding support built into it, provided the developer makes it perfectly clear that there is absolutely no technical support for a modded game, and that the developer emphasizes that modders are responsible for maintaining their own content and the developer is not under any obligation to ensure that mods continue to maintain any compatability. And every developer that has opened mod support has been amazed at what users provide in the way of fresh, additional content.

As John Lydgate paraphrased Abraham Lincoln so well, "You can please some of the people all the time, or you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all the time."


Most games that I can think of that benefited from big mod scenes were actually good games to begin with though...

Pushing out a buggy and uninspiring product that lacks desired features, and (from what I've heard) is hard-coded in ways that make desirable mods more difficult to create (like a less restricted mechlab) is not providing a good platform for mods.

In my opinion, the hype coming from PGI and their marketing efforts has smacked of damage control from the beginning. The core gameplay of the game is very repetitive and uninspiring. I wish it were otherwise, but I actually recently forgot that I hadn't finished my playthrough because I got bored, and I've never managed to play it for very long without getting bored.

#10 KW Driver

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 11:27 AM

View PostBrauer, on 26 February 2020 - 10:46 AM, said:

Most games that I can think of that benefited from big mod scenes were actually good games to begin with though...

Pushing out a buggy and uninspiring product that lacks desired features, and (from what I've heard) is hard-coded in ways that make desirable mods more difficult to create (like a less restricted mechlab) is not providing a good platform for mods.

In my opinion, the hype coming from PGI and their marketing efforts has smacked of damage control from the beginning. The core gameplay of the game is very repetitive and uninspiring. I wish it were otherwise, but I actually recently forgot that I hadn't finished my playthrough because I got bored, and I've never managed to play it for very long without getting bored.


I agree, they could have done things a bit differently to make it easier for modders to work with, and yes, the game is repetitive, however, if you look at it in the aspect that they are providing a platform for users to develop, then it is merely a matter of time before that becomes available.. The closest corollary I can think of is probably Farm Sim.. it is very boring and repetitive, but the modding community has stepped up to increase functionality, and start breaking up that repetitive aspect. I think part of the issue is that it is just so soon after release, and there were hurdles that the devs didn't think about when they were programming the game. once those hurdles are surpassed, I think we'll start seeing the mod scene ramp up significantly, and start seeing more. The platform seems to be pretty solid, but the content is what is lacking here, and the modders will fill that gap, and fill it quickly once PGI finishes implementing the needed changes (and their last dev "chat" does show that they are working toward identifying and working toward resolving those issues, such as the mech lab restrictions, and other equipment types i.e. engines).

It is still too soon IMO to expect a whole lot, but I think that within the next 6 months we will start seeing quite a bit of improvement across the board in terms of availability and quality, as modders learn the tools and get the creative juices flowing..

Either way, poo-pooing mods in a single player game anymore is just plain foolish. Sure, it would make sense if the game was set up for PvP play, as mods can be exploited and ruin the experience for players, but in a SP or PvE environment, there is no reason to to exclude the modding community, and I think PGI will continue to assist the modding community as things progress. from what I have seen so far, a majority of the problems have been the difference between the dev's workflows and the modders needs.. the devs would do things in a manner of what they needed to accomplish, and that was different than what the community wanted to work with/toward, and PGI seems to be working to complete those bridges as they are identified. Ive neither seen nor heard anything about their being obstructionist about any part of the game that modders want to work with, rather, it just seems that they didn't anticipate some of what would be in demand, and as I say, they seem to be attempting to fix those oversights as quickly as possible.

#11 TLBFestus

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 11:49 AM

View PostVellron2005, on 18 February 2020 - 03:54 AM, said:

Hey guys, I just had a funny thought..

Has PGI deliberately omitted to fine-polish MW5 so that moders would have a playground of their own?



A couple of old sayings come to mind;

"KISS; Keep It Simple Stupid"

"Common things happen commonly"

PGI and Russ are the epitomy of the KISS principle, especially the second S.

PGI has a history of half-arsed efforts and minimally viable products, that's the common thing they do, and they still do.

#12 Brauer

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 02:49 PM

View PostKW Driver, on 26 February 2020 - 11:27 AM, said:


I agree, they could have done things a bit differently to make it easier for modders to work with, and yes, the game is repetitive, however, if you look at it in the aspect that they are providing a platform for users to develop, then it is merely a matter of time before that becomes available.. The closest corollary I can think of is probably Farm Sim.. it is very boring and repetitive, but the modding community has stepped up to increase functionality, and start breaking up that repetitive aspect. I think part of the issue is that it is just so soon after release, and there were hurdles that the devs didn't think about when they were programming the game. once those hurdles are surpassed, I think we'll start seeing the mod scene ramp up significantly, and start seeing more. The platform seems to be pretty solid, but the content is what is lacking here, and the modders will fill that gap, and fill it quickly once PGI finishes implementing the needed changes (and their last dev "chat" does show that they are working toward identifying and working toward resolving those issues, such as the mech lab restrictions, and other equipment types i.e. engines).

It is still too soon IMO to expect a whole lot, but I think that within the next 6 months we will start seeing quite a bit of improvement across the board in terms of availability and quality, as modders learn the tools and get the creative juices flowing..

Either way, poo-pooing mods in a single player game anymore is just plain foolish. Sure, it would make sense if the game was set up for PvP play, as mods can be exploited and ruin the experience for players, but in a SP or PvE environment, there is no reason to to exclude the modding community, and I think PGI will continue to assist the modding community as things progress. from what I have seen so far, a majority of the problems have been the difference between the dev's workflows and the modders needs.. the devs would do things in a manner of what they needed to accomplish, and that was different than what the community wanted to work with/toward, and PGI seems to be working to complete those bridges as they are identified. Ive neither seen nor heard anything about their being obstructionist about any part of the game that modders want to work with, rather, it just seems that they didn't anticipate some of what would be in demand, and as I say, they seem to be attempting to fix those oversights as quickly as possible.


Yeah, we'll see. I don't think anyone should compliment PGI on some kind of 3D chess plan to release a minimal viable product to leave room for mods, but we might still get mods that create a much more fun experience based on MW5. We'll see though.

Some other games, like Half Life, already had much better core gameplay and/or were revolutionary in one way or another, and ended up with great modding scenes. I'm not convinced we'll see that here because the core game is pretty flawed, but I do hope some good mods come out.

#13 KW Driver

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 05:31 PM

View PostBrauer, on 26 February 2020 - 02:49 PM, said:

Some other games, like Half Life, already had much better core gameplay and/or were revolutionary in one way or another, and ended up with great modding scenes. I'm not convinced we'll see that here because the core game is pretty flawed, but I do hope some good mods come out.


The unfortunate comparison here is also that Half Life was developed in an age when games were easier to make and customers were easier to satisfy. Graphics capabilities in the age of Half Life, or even Half Life 2, were child's play compared to what today's standards are, and Neither were anything close to what I'd call "Open World" gameplay types. Sure, MW5 doesn't really fit the bill of "Open World" in the purest sense, but is significantly more open than HL or HL2.

What I am expecting that we will see in the coming year for MW5 are a plethora of new world maps (there are still a lot of level designers out there) which should help remove some of the redundancies of playing on the same 8 or 9 maps (hopefully we will see some renderings of Lore familiar planets that major battles had been fought on in the novels such as Twycross or Trell I) and some biome randomizer scripting that will alter the playability factors. I see AI enhancement mods coming that will make the AI more challenging, and maybe even more realistic in behavior. There are already mods out for bringing Clan and IS weaponry into the game, and as PGI opens up more of the assets that they overlooked in the beginning those should begin to get more and more polished. I think it may be some time yet before we see actual Mechs getting imported from MWO for a couple reasons: PGI has stated they will be releasing DLCs, and hinted that new mechs are in the plan for those DLCs, and second, the conversion process from one engine to another will have some problems that modelers will have to overcome, slowing output down a bit for modders.

I also see many smaller quality of life type mods coming (or even already in the early stages of implementation). There is already a mod out bringing the MWO style HUD, and I expect that once the equipment situation normalizes and includes things like Engine selection and armor/structure options, we will see mods making the mechlab more resemble the MWO mechlab, and probably even make it identical so that Smurfy's builds can be used in either game with little or no adapting necessary. I also expect that a modding group will find a way to add new factions and create fresh timelines for events such as the Clan invasion or the FedCom Civil War, and expect some alterations of how time works in the game to suit incorporating those timelines into a grand campaign that unfolds over time (but that will depend on whether we see a significant group evolve).

I think we will see these things, and more, at least start to come together within the next 6-12 months, and PGI's job will shift to enhancing the build with new feature sets and taking advantage of evolving technologies in the core programming, as well as helping assist Epic Games with a launchpad platform for mods that is intuitive and user friendly, and most importantly, integrated into the game itself, as opposed to the current 3rd party download and installation method, such as what is available in ArmA 3. In a way an argument could be made against PGI for doing this, rather than focusing on releasing content, but as most game developers have found, it has become absolutely impossible to release additional content with high enough quality in a timeframe that keeps customers engaged. By allowing 3rd parties to develop content, they can themselves focus on managing the core program and stomping out bugs and quirks as fast as they show themselves.

So, while the game itself does have some issues, I don't believe anything is truly debilitating, and have seen games that were in far worse shape that even modding couldn't help (Takedown: Red Sabre comes to mind). I think the future is pretty bright for MW5.

#14 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 07:25 PM

View PostKW Driver, on 26 February 2020 - 05:31 PM, said:


The unfortunate comparison here is also that Half Life was developed in an age when games were easier to make and customers were easier to satisfy. Graphics capabilities in the age of Half Life, or even Half Life 2, were child's play compared to what today's standards are, and Neither were anything close to what I'd call "Open World" gameplay types. Sure, MW5 doesn't really fit the bill of "Open World" in the purest sense, but is significantly more open than HL or HL2.



Dude, who's talking about "Open World" here apart from you? The standards of early 2000's is pretty much the same as it is now. It's just that the advancement in game engines has made it EASIER for just about anyone to make a game whereas in the past, you really needed to know a lot about coding. Now, most game engines have scripts ready for you to connect via graph nodes.

The graphics in Far Cry 1, Doom 3 and Half Life 2 (all 3 games were released almost back-to-back) were so ahead of its time. In MW5, though it looks decent, the textures are scaled down, the demo that was shown in PC Gamer doesn't match what the game actually is now and there's a lot missing, like animated NPCs.

While it is good to shoot at things in MW5, the missions aren't memorable at all. You could give MW5 a 7/10 at best. Can you honestly say that Far Cry 1, Doom 3 and Half Life 2 were anything less than a 9/10? What kind of silly comparison are you making here?

#15 Brauer

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 08:39 PM

View PostKW Driver, on 26 February 2020 - 05:31 PM, said:


The unfortunate comparison here is also that Half Life was developed in an age when games were easier to make and customers were easier to satisfy. Graphics capabilities in the age of Half Life, or even Half Life 2, were child's play compared to what today's standards are, and Neither were anything close to what I'd call "Open World" gameplay types. Sure, MW5 doesn't really fit the bill of "Open World" in the purest sense, but is significantly more open than HL or HL2.

What I am expecting that we will see in the coming year for MW5 are a plethora of new world maps (there are still a lot of level designers out there) which should help remove some of the redundancies of playing on the same 8 or 9 maps (hopefully we will see some renderings of Lore familiar planets that major battles had been fought on in the novels such as Twycross or Trell I) and some biome randomizer scripting that will alter the playability factors. I see AI enhancement mods coming that will make the AI more challenging, and maybe even more realistic in behavior. There are already mods out for bringing Clan and IS weaponry into the game, and as PGI opens up more of the assets that they overlooked in the beginning those should begin to get more and more polished. I think it may be some time yet before we see actual Mechs getting imported from MWO for a couple reasons: PGI has stated they will be releasing DLCs, and hinted that new mechs are in the plan for those DLCs, and second, the conversion process from one engine to another will have some problems that modelers will have to overcome, slowing output down a bit for modders.

I also see many smaller quality of life type mods coming (or even already in the early stages of implementation). There is already a mod out bringing the MWO style HUD, and I expect that once the equipment situation normalizes and includes things like Engine selection and armor/structure options, we will see mods making the mechlab more resemble the MWO mechlab, and probably even make it identical so that Smurfy's builds can be used in either game with little or no adapting necessary. I also expect that a modding group will find a way to add new factions and create fresh timelines for events such as the Clan invasion or the FedCom Civil War, and expect some alterations of how time works in the game to suit incorporating those timelines into a grand campaign that unfolds over time (but that will depend on whether we see a significant group evolve).

I think we will see these things, and more, at least start to come together within the next 6-12 months, and PGI's job will shift to enhancing the build with new feature sets and taking advantage of evolving technologies in the core programming, as well as helping assist Epic Games with a launchpad platform for mods that is intuitive and user friendly, and most importantly, integrated into the game itself, as opposed to the current 3rd party download and installation method, such as what is available in ArmA 3. In a way an argument could be made against PGI for doing this, rather than focusing on releasing content, but as most game developers have found, it has become absolutely impossible to release additional content with high enough quality in a timeframe that keeps customers engaged. By allowing 3rd parties to develop content, they can themselves focus on managing the core program and stomping out bugs and quirks as fast as they show themselves.

So, while the game itself does have some issues, I don't believe anything is truly debilitating, and have seen games that were in far worse shape that even modding couldn't help (Takedown: Red Sabre comes to mind). I think the future is pretty bright for MW5.


I haven't read your whole post, but I just want to make clear that the biggest issue that I am referring to is just the core gameplay mechanics. Things like Doom, Quake, and Half Life had stronger core gameplay for their time, and in general the gameplay still holds up imo. The core gameplay is my primary beef with MW5. I don't find it particularly strong either now, or compared to some older games that I've picked up again in recent years.

I know I am comparing this to some lofty standards, and I am no game developer, but I imagine those games were, if anything, more difficult to develop at the time as there was far less to build off of. From what I understand Quake basically introduced fully-fledged mouse-support and meaningfully vertical levels in an fps. That's pretty huge, and I imagine a rather big lift particularly since from what I recall they introduced plenty of other innovations. MW5 on the other hand has benefited from existing mech assets from MWO, and all or the tools and features of UE.

I hope we see mods that convince me to pick up the game, but it's a tall order.

#16 Mystere

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 05:13 AM

View PostKW Driver, on 26 February 2020 - 10:20 AM, said:

Haven't been around video games long, have you? Proven fact: Video games that cater to modding have a longer shelf life than games that do not... the biggest proof of this is probably the Microsoft Flight Simulator franchise, which despite the core code being almost 15 years old now, is STILL selling copies. Also look at games such as the ArmA series, Half Life and Half Life 2, Euro Truck Simulator 2, Falcon 4.0, and we could go on and on.


Here's the rub: Those were actually good to fantastic games. MW5 -- and MWO for that matter -- cannot even do joysticks correctly.

Edited by Mystere, 29 February 2020 - 05:14 AM.


#17 SVK Puskin

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 01:37 AM

View PostSjorpha, on 22 February 2020 - 05:15 PM, said:

Yeah, it's all some ingenious master plan. Release a garbage game to provoke more modding...

Or maybe they just aren't good at making games? Or they don't care if the game is good? One of those seem more likely IMO.


Release your own game so we can see what kind of garbage you are able to make!

Edited by SVK Puskin, 04 March 2020 - 01:38 AM.


#18 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 09:19 PM

View PostSVK Puskin, on 04 March 2020 - 01:37 AM, said:


Release your own game so we can see what kind of garbage you are able to make!


You might need to temper your replies so that you don't appear as a brown-nosing white knight of the incompetent.

#19 1 O O percent BongLord

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 10:36 PM

Sounds like one of those indie devs that get mad when criticism is laid on their game.

Write a ****** book? You're a ****** author.

Made a dumb patent? You're a ****** entrepreneur.

Make a video game rife with bugs, glitches and it looks like it was made from 2014? You probably suck at making video games.

#20 SVK Puskin

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Posted 05 March 2020 - 12:53 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 04 March 2020 - 09:19 PM, said:


You might need to temper your replies so that you don't appear as a brown-nosing white knight of the incompetent.


I was polite. :) He was not. :)





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