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Zero To 0-6 In 15Sec


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#21 HammerMaster

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 02:44 PM

View PostBrauer, on 10 March 2020 - 02:41 PM, said:

Streamers frequently sync drop, if it was not allowed surely pgi would have done something at some point. It's not an exploit, it's not against ToS, it's not abuse.


It is an exploit and abuse AND violates the TOS as addressed by Tina.
It is unenforceable.

Still boggles the mind that the same 10 people who rank very highly and clearly play the game well continue to defend stacking the deck in their favor in this manner.
Shameful.

Edited by HammerMaster, 10 March 2020 - 02:48 PM.


#22 Brauer

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 02:48 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 10 March 2020 - 02:31 PM, said:


Even if it only confers an advantage in 1% cases it's still an unfair advantage. We can argue the impact of sync-dropping but it's still an exploit no matter how much you dress it down.



This is the fine line, some players accidentally sync, we see this all the time. The problem is there's no real way to discern between those doing it deliberately or accidentally.


There's also the issue of intent, some players sync with intent to drop with streamers, others do it intending to play against their buddy, others with their buddy. The last one is the root of the problem as they're effectively playing group vs. pugs.


It's just not an exploit. People who sync drop are literally just queueing up for games. They aren't in any way manipulating the matchmaker and taking advantage of some kind of flaw. When a player sync drops they are as likely to end up playing against their friend as with them, and it's not uncommon for folks to get placed in different games entirely.

What's the exploit exactly? You all haven't managed to name what the actual concrete problem of it is. Is it that on the off chance that people get placed in the same match they might coordinate? I've done that with random people because I know what they like to do, or we had similar builds.

How would trying to sync with streamers be any different? Some of the guys I play with and have played competitively with stream, so would you consider it to be fine if I synced with them?

This argument that sync dropping is an exploit is built on nothing, and the deeper it goes the more absurd the idea of marking this as an exploit becomes.

#23 VonBruinwald

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 02:50 PM

View PostBrauer, on 10 March 2020 - 02:41 PM, said:

Streamers frequently sync drop, if it was not allowed surely pgi would have done something at some point. It's not an exploit, it's not against ToS, it's not abuse.


Streamers are a borderline case. They're exploiting the matchmaker but there's (typically) no intent to gain an advantage.

#24 Brauer

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 02:52 PM

View PostHammerMaster, on 10 March 2020 - 02:44 PM, said:


It is an exploit and abuse AND violates the TOS as addressed by Tina.
It is unenforceable.

Still boggles the mind that the same 10 people who rank very highly and clearly play the game well continue to defend stacking the deck in their favor in this manner.
Shameful.


As I said, you will end up on opposing teams as often as not when sync dropping. It does NOT stack the deck in your favor on average.

Why don't you point to a specific statement by anyone at pgi naming it an exploit and against ToS?

View PostVonBruinwald, on 10 March 2020 - 02:50 PM, said:


Streamers are a borderline case. They're exploiting the matchmaker but there's (typically) no intent to gain an advantage.


Sounds like you're moving the goal posts. If it's an exploit it'd be enforceable in that case and one would think it should be since there's often plenty of evidence of sync dropping.

#25 Kodyn

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 02:53 PM

When you're in a larger unit you can't help but accidentally sync drop. You would have to actively avoid it by coordinating every single player on comms and even then you could still wind up in the same match with this low population.

I'm no longer in a big unit, but I don't mind when I see other people sync. Whether it be on my team or against me(and it's usually split between both), those tend to be the more interesting matches. I know at least a few people on one side or the other, or both, are working together, or gunning for one another- it lends to the match in my experience.

Whether they do it on purpose or not, it can't be avoided, when it happens it's not the end of the world, and it's fun when people you know wind up with or against you, especially if you don't know a lot of active people anymore and Group and FP aren't a possibility. I'll take the fun where it occurs.

Edited by Kodyn, 10 March 2020 - 02:53 PM.


#26 Brauer

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 02:55 PM

It's also probably worth noting that truly top players might actually get a higher wlr if they drop solo, than when they sync. If they sync with another top player there's a 50/50 chance there's another very strong player on the other side, if they drop solo that chance diminished substantially.

#27 HammerMaster

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 02:59 PM

Weak excuses.

#28 Brauer

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:01 PM

View PostHammerMaster, on 10 March 2020 - 02:59 PM, said:

Weak excuses.


Show any proof that PGI considers sync dropping an exploit and against ToS.

Or just keep complaining because sync drops are a personal Boogeyman.

#29 VonBruinwald

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:13 PM

View PostBrauer, on 10 March 2020 - 02:48 PM, said:

People who sync drop are literally just queueing up for games. They aren't in any way manipulating the matchmaker and taking advantage of some kind of flaw. When a player sync drops they are as likely to end up playing against their friend as with them, and it's not uncommon for folks to get placed in different games entirely.


They're not just queuing up for games. They're deliberately hitting join at the same time to artificially increase the probability that the match maker places them in the same game.

Just because it doesn't work every time doesn't mean it's not an exploit; or an an attempt at.

View PostBrauer, on 10 March 2020 - 02:55 PM, said:

If they sync with another top player there's a 50/50 chance there's another very strong player on the other side, if they drop solo that chance diminished substantially.


That's actually leads into another form of exploiting where "good" players avoid each other so they don't risk taking a hit to their stats. I use the term good loosely as it's actually known to occur with bad units in FW who only want to play vs. pugs and actively avoid other units.

Which brings us full circle to sync dropping the solo queue to stomp pugs.

#30 HammerMaster

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:22 PM

View PostBrauer, on 10 March 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Show any proof that PGI considers sync dropping an exploit and against ToS.

Or just keep complaining because sync drops are a personal Boogeyman.


I'll allow you to pore through searching. It's there.
Syncs aren't my bogeyman.
The arrogance of certain members of this population is.

#31 Brauer

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:24 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 10 March 2020 - 03:13 PM, said:


They're not just queuing up for games. They're deliberately hitting join at the same time to artificially increase the probability that the match maker places them in the same game.

Just because it doesn't work every time doesn't mean it's not an exploit; or an an attempt at.



That's actually leads into another form of exploiting where "good" players avoid each other so they don't risk taking a hit to their stats. I use the term good loosely as it's actually known to occur with bad units in FW who only want to play vs. pugs and actively avoid other units.

Which brings us full circle to sync dropping the solo queue to stomp pugs.


Deliberately queueing at the same time really doesn't rise to the level of an exploit imo. They don't somehow tamper with the mm or anything. Compare sync dropping to the RACro, one was definitely an exploit which literally took advantage of a poorly written game mechanic to produce higher dps and lower heat than intended, the other is players jumping into the queue for matches. If sync dropping was an exploit surely pgi could code the mm to prefer to place people from the same unit, or on each other's friends lists on opposite sides, purge discussion of sync dropping from the forums, and either punish streamers or put them on notice for openly going against ToS. They haven't done any of that. Hence, not against ToS, not an exploit. Carry on.

Regarding queue dodging, good players don't typically do that. The people doing it tend to be afraid of running into good players. I wouldn't call that an exploit either, though I do personally find it distasteful.

View PostVonBruinwald, on 10 March 2020 - 03:13 PM, said:


They're not just queuing up for games. They're deliberately hitting join at the same time to artificially increase the probability that the match maker places them in the same game.

Just because it doesn't work every time doesn't mean it's not an exploit; or an an attempt at.



That's actually leads into another form of exploiting where "good" players avoid each other so they don't risk taking a hit to their stats. I use the term good loosely as it's actually known to occur with bad units in FW who only want to play vs. pugs and actively avoid other units.

Which brings us full circle to sync dropping the solo queue to stomp pugs.


Lol. I already did a quick search. Nothing came up but forum threads from as early as 2013 of this same argument with no evidence of pgi making a statement or posts being moderated for discussing breaking ToS. The burden of proof is on you in this case considering sync dropping is so commonplace.

#32 BlaizerP

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:27 PM

Just read the ToS. Still says nothing about sync dropping.

Unclear where you guys come up with this BS.

#33 HammerMaster

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:29 PM

View PostBrauer, on 10 March 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

Deliberately queueing at the same time really doesn't rise to the level of an exploit imo. They don't somehow tamper with the mm or anything. Compare sync dropping to the RACro, one was definitely an exploit which literally took advantage of a poorly written game mechanic to produce higher dps and lower heat than intended, the other is players jumping into the queue for matches. If sync dropping was an exploit surely pgi could code the mm to prefer to place people from the same unit, or on each other's friends lists on opposite sides, purge discussion of sync dropping from the forums, and either punish streamers or put them on notice for openly going against ToS. They haven't done any of that. Hence, not against ToS, not an exploit. Carry on.

Regarding queue dodging, good players don't typically do that. The people doing it tend to be afraid of running into good players. I wouldn't call that an exploit either, though I do personally find it distasteful.



Lol. I already did a quick search. Nothing came up but forum threads from as early as 2013 of this same argument with no evidence of pgi making a statement or posts being moderated for discussing breaking ToS. The burden of proof is on you in this case considering sync dropping is so commonplace.


I'm not on trial and as such no burden of proof will be presented.
The proof is the smell. It stinks. Bottom line.
They stated. But can't enforce.
Only thing they CAN do is lock this thread. That will occur in a week.

Edited by HammerMaster, 10 March 2020 - 03:31 PM.


#34 BlaizerP

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:31 PM

I think you smell, thus you are now against the ToS.

#35 Brauer

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:32 PM

View PostHammerMaster, on 10 March 2020 - 03:29 PM, said:


I'm not on trial and as such no burden of proof will be presented.
The proof is the smell. It stinks. Bottom line.
They stated. But can't enforce.
Only thing they CAN do is lock this thread. That will occur in a week.


I mean I found a thread from 2012 where someone quoted a Dev as saying they're fine with sync dropping. Given the lack of any moderation there's really nothing supporting your claim that sync dropping is off limits.

#36 HammerMaster

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:35 PM

I've said my piece.

#37 VonBruinwald

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:39 PM

View PostBlaizerP, on 10 March 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:

Just read the ToS. Still says nothing about sync dropping.

Unclear where you guys come up with this BS.


View Postdraiocht' said:

As was noted several posts above:

Synchronized dropping is an attempted exploitation or manipulation of the matchmaking system, and is thus a violation of the Code of Conduct.

Such misconduct can be reported for game moderator review. This can be done through the in-game player context-menu or by emailing moderation@mwomercs.com with any details and/or evidence available. Considering the nature of the violation, the latter may be more useful. The report may then be reviewed to investigate potentially problematic behavior or circumstances of coincidence.

[mod]As discussion of exploits or cheats is not permitted on the forums,
this thread is now closed.[/mod]


#38 HammerMaster

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:41 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 10 March 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:



There
It
Is

#39 Brauer

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:42 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 10 March 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:




Draiocht is hardly any authoritative source on the matter. If you can quote a community manager, dev, or someone like that you'd actually have a decent source.

Again, if this was such a violation they'd have to put most of the game's streamers on notice, and they have not.

#40 HammerMaster

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 03:42 PM

View PostBlaizerP, on 10 March 2020 - 03:31 PM, said:

I think you smell, thus you are now against the ToS.


Duly noted.





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