17 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

What is it about some 'mechs (maybe it's all and I just haven't ever noticed it before), where you can shoot them square in the back, but FRONT armor is removed?

Was playing a 4xERML Sarah's Jenner last night, shot a Victor square in the butt, and both front and back armor were being removed.

Seriously, my expectation is that when I shoot a 'mech in the back, it will register only in the back.

This Victor had a crit open back torso, and a somewhat weak front torso with armor, and in shooting it in the rear, I somehow magically removed all the front armor so that it too was crit open.

I rarely play lights (they're too addicting) so often when I'm shooting an enemy in the back it's with a large alpha (typically dual HG, and lots of ML's) so it rarely requires more than one back shot to kill a 'mech (those rare times when I actually get to fire at a 'mech's back), is this normal or was I seeing a problem with game hit registration, or a problem with the Victor's rear hit boxes?

I'm almost done with my headshots and I plan to go back to piloting light 'mechs more often (light 'mechs being so forgiving of mistakes made, vs any other larger 'mech), so this is probably something I should know.

[K O Z A K]

without the video it's impossible to say

he could have been getting shot in the front by another mech and he had more back armor than you'd expect, maybe he twisted hard and you were actually hitting the front box

or sometimes hitreg is off, occasionally you have really annoying situations where you get shot in the front and damage registers on the back, this is an old video but it still happens the same way today:

[Gen Lee]

I've noticed this happen as well, along with a reversed scenario, where you shoot the front of mech, and rear armor is removed. I've seen that one happen many times, where I'd shoot someone in the front CT with a Gauss Rifle, and instead of damaging the front armor, all the damage is done to the rear armor, usually removing all of it and causing internal damage. It's also happened to me, being shot in front CT with a Gauss Rifle, only to have it remove my rear armor and damage internal structure.

I will say that I don't recall ever seeing this happen with lasers, however. It's much easier to see this with ballistics because most of them do their damage all at once, or close to it. I originally thought this was just due to projectile weapons and the server not properly detecting collisions.

[Brauer]

Hit reg issues happen sometimes, it sucks. There's a chance it's related to some kind of issue with your connection, but it can also just be spaghetti code, so it's just one of many issues with the game that we have to live with as long as we keep playing.

Dimento Graven, on 27 March 2020 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm almost done with my headshots and I plan to go back to piloting light 'mechs more often (light 'mechs being so forgiving of mistakes made, vs any other larger 'mech), so this is probably something I should know.

Lights are not more forgiving. Yeah, you can run your way out of mistakes sometimes, but you can also easily get one-shot by a LOT of builds out there and lock-ons (especially streaks) are hard counters to just about all light mechs (barring stealth sorta).

Whereas assaults are only very rarely on-shot and can simply shoot their way out of trouble.

[Dimento Graven]

Hazeclaw, on 27 March 2020 - 08:15 AM, said:

without the video it's impossible to say

Try this, around the 5:30 mark:

https://www.twitch.t...ights&sort=time

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he could have been getting shot in the front by another mech and he had more back armor than you'd expect, maybe he twisted hard and you were actually hitting the front box

I looked for that, but didn't see any of it. Maybe I missed it, tell me if that's what you see.

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or sometimes hitreg is off, occasionally you have really annoying situations where you get shot in the front and damage registers on the back

This I believe.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 27 March 2020 - 10:07 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Brauer, on 27 March 2020 - 09:15 AM, said:

...

Lights are not more forgiving. Yeah, you can run your way out of mistakes sometimes, but you can also easily get one-shot by a LOT of builds out there and lock-ons (especially streaks) are hard counters to just about all light mechs (barring stealth sorta).

Whereas assaults are only very rarely on-shot and can simply shoot their way out of trouble.

Yeah, well... In my experience you're wrong.

When I'm playing a light and I am able to repeatedly run through the entire enemy team being bathed in lasers and coming away with only blistered paint, verses, say almost any other larger 'mech (some mediums can get away with this, once, and typically ONLY once) when seeing a large number of the enemy team and having them shooting at you means a very quick death

Every time I play a light I am amazed at the **** I can get away with, that is just not possible with other 'mechs.

I'm not calling lights OP, BUT, in my opinion there are some lights that are... overly survivable... I guess is the most correct way to put it.

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 27 March 2020 - 10:13 AM, said:

Yeah, well... In my experience you're wrong.

When I'm playing a light and I am able to repeatedly run through the entire enemy team being bathed in lasers and coming away with only blistered paint, verses, say almost any other larger 'mech (some mediums can get away with this, once, and typically ONLY once) when seeing a large number of the enemy team and having them shooting at you means a very quick death

Every time I play a light I am amazed at the **** I can get away with, that is just not possible with other 'mechs.

I'm not calling lights OP, BUT, in my opinion there are some lights that are... overly survivable... I guess is the most correct way to put it.

I mean I have often literally walked through the enemy team in an LBX40 or UAC30 Sleipnir. The difference when I do it in the Sleipnir is that the opposing team isn't there anymore when I've finished my stroll. (there's usually some degree of support from the team on these little jaunts, but in the right situation the LBX40 can really just march through).

You're experience is in a vanishingly small number of drops in lights. You're also completely ignoring the fact that someone with aim can one shot lights when they try to run through a team, and streak and ATM boats can one-shot lights without even rudimentary aim. You're also choosing to overlook how an assault can get away with bad peeks that would wreck a light. Stop picking and choosing just because you've been tormented by lights.

[K O Z A K]

looks like a perfect combination of you spreading damage a bit, a crapload of back armour, and on the 3rd shot some damage definitely went to front ct when it shouldn't have, what can you do, it happens like the heat bug

Edited by Hazeclaw, 27 March 2020 - 10:31 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Brauer, on 27 March 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

I mean I have often literally walked through the enemy team in an LBX40 or UAC30 Sleipnir. The difference when I do it in the Sleipnir is that the opposing team isn't there anymore when I've finished my stroll. (there's usually some degree of support from the team on these little jaunts, but in the right situation the LBX40 can really just march through).

I'd love to a video of that. It sounds more like your friendly team had their entire attention and you came in from behind before the enemy figured out you were there.

That's the state of potato level play in quick play matches.

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You're experience is in a vanishingly small number of drops in lights. You're also completely ignoring the fact that someone with aim can one shot lights when they try to run through a team, and streak and ATM boats can one-shot lights without even rudimentary aim. You're also choosing to overlook how an assault can get away with bad peeks that would wreck a light. Stop picking and choosing just because you've been tormented by lights.

With certain lights moving at their top speed, it doesn't matter if you can aim, if the only weapon you have are lasers. A moving light is nigh invulnerable to lasers. Very little of the potential damage being shot at them ever registers, when it comes to lasers.

Ballistics and PPC's with their hit registration issues, more often than not results in the light 'mech running off, maybe with one or two less arms, or a side torso, but still alive.

A light that does a "bad peek" well that pilot has made a mistake in not using their speed and maneuverability. A stationary light is a dead light.

I'm not picking and choosing, I'm speaking from 6+ years of experience with this game and watching where the power creep, nerfs, buffs, skill tree and tiering changes have taken us.

I can tell from the few times that I have played lights and how often I've done way better than even I'd expect, that lights will be really easy for me to do well with, and it's not at all because I'm a "great" light pilot.

Hazeclaw, on 27 March 2020 - 10:30 AM, said:

looks like a perfect combination of you spreading damage a bit, a crapload of back armour, and on the 3rd shot some damage definitely went to front ct when it shouldn't have, what can you do, it happens like the heat bug

Yeah I spread damage a bit, I hadn't realized I'd jumped my mouse up to 1200dpi (typically like to play around 600-700dpi), that and I'm still not used to aiming while moving so goddamned fast, so mouse settings wrong, and some potato level target tracking and my spread was definitely all over the place, BUT, when you're not even able to see a "front" of the 'mech how do you "spread" damage to it?

Glad you were able to see it happen too though.

Makes me feel less bad.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 27 March 2020 - 10:38 AM.

[K O Z A K]

well you can still spread damage between arm/side torso/center torso from the back, which you've done some of here, but it looks like there was def some dodgy hit reg at least on one of your shots

[Dimento Graven]

Hazeclaw, on 27 March 2020 - 10:46 AM, said:

well you can still spread damage between arm/side torso/center torso from the back, which you've done some of here, but it looks like there was def some dodgy hit reg at least on one of your shots

Yeah, definitely can't disagree with you on how spread my damage was...

Once I start playing lights again more regularly I hope to tighten that up.

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 27 March 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

I'd love to a video of that. It sounds more like your friendly team had their entire attention and you came in from behind before the enemy figured out you were there.

That's the state of potato level play in quick play matches.

Walking through a QP team in an assault is definitely possible and is an indictment of the skill and builds of much of the playerbase. It usually startles me when it works, but it's not that unusual given the state of play. I don't record my matches, so I don't have video to prove it unfortunately.

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With certain lights moving at their top speed, it doesn't matter if you can aim, if the only weapon you have are lasers. A moving light is nigh invulnerable to lasers. Very little of the potential damage being shot at them ever registers, when it comes to lasers.

Moving lights are definitely NOT nigh invincible to lasers. They can be trickier to kill, especially the smallest ones, but lasers still work fine. You also didn't specify what type of lasers, but it's worth noting that MPLs are one of the most reliable anti-light weapons.

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Ballistics and PPC's with their hit registration issues, more often than not results in the light 'mech running off, maybe with one or two less arms, or a side torso, but still alive.

I don't run into any issues killing lights with ballistics or peeps. I find both IS UAC5/10 builds and ERPPCs to be great against lights. If you hit a light with them they suffer a LOT. You might want to look into packet loss or some other connection issue if you run into hit reg problems so frequently, but I'd look first at your own play.

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A light that does a "bad peek" well that pilot has made a mistake in not using their speed and maneuverability. A stationary light is a dead light.

Lights still can peek on enemy teams, it's pretty common in IS mpl lights. Playing a light doesn't mean you just run around like a chicken with its head cut off. You're just choosing to dismiss the ease of one-shotting lights here....

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I'm not picking and choosing, I'm speaking from 6+ years of experience with this game and watching where the power creep, nerfs, buffs, skill tree and tiering changes have taken us.

I can tell from the few times that I have played lights and how often I've done way better than even I'd expect, that lights will be really easy for me to do well with, and it's not at all because I'm a "great" light pilot.

While I haven't been playing this game for six years (more like 3 iirc), I have played in every arena including comp and have given the metagame and balance a fair amount of thought (particularly in 2019 as a part of my comp experience). Lights play a role and can be deadly, but it is certainly harder to drive wins in a light than an assault simply because they are less forgiving and assaults are able to pump out more damage and absorb more punishment. This is pretty elementary stuff tbh.

By all metrics outside of WLR you are doing worse in lights than in assaults so far this season by the way (currently your light WLR is .01 above your assault WLR, which is a negligible difference imo). Generally speaking, assaults tend to be the higher performing class, and it's pretty hard to understand how you can't accept this simple and consistent fact.

Edited by Brauer, 27 March 2020 - 11:10 AM.

[JediPanther]

Hit reg always has trouble with a light going top speed and moving erratically. Lights aren't the ez mode many think they are. Far too many variables on a light mech to make that claim. Some lights (mostly clan) are easier to use and do damage or survive longer than their is counter parts.

A few days ago in the K2 with 4x snub ppcs on alpine I one-shot an ach. That doesn't prove or disprove hit reg is messed up. Only that it registered and gave me credit for the kill.

[Kubernetes]

Yeah, lights seem more invulnerable... until you turn a corner into a streakboat or a dual HGauss driver who can shoot. Even a dual lb10x loadout can f**k you up. One misstep and you're dead. Even if you avoid those, there are plenty of fast mediums now that prey on lights. MPLs with duration skills and quirks are especially nasty. My Vulcan 5T w/ duration skills is pumping out almost 6dmg per tick. Dervish 6MR puts out 36 dmg in .45 sec -- 8dmg per tick. Ouch.

Edited by Kubernetes, 27 March 2020 - 12:12 PM.

[Brauer]

JediPanther, on 27 March 2020 - 11:58 AM, said:

Hit reg always has trouble with a light going top speed and moving erratically. Lights aren't the ez mode many think they are. Far too many variables on a light mech to make that claim. Some lights (mostly clan) are easier to use and do damage or survive longer than their is counter parts.

A few days ago in the K2 with 4x snub ppcs on alpine I one-shot an ach. That doesn't prove or disprove hit reg is messed up. Only that it registered and gave me credit for the kill.

Personally, I think IS lights are largely easier to use because you have some pretty tanky lights (even with IS XL, think WLF and K9) and almost all of the best lights are IS mechs. The piranha is also obviously great, but being the glassiest of cannons it can be hard for new players to pick up. But, at least in a clan light you won't be one-shot through a ST, which is certainly an advantage.

Nice job nuking the ACH! I always find one-shotting lights to be pretty satisfying.

[Kodyn]

Hitreg issues are a thing, it happens often, more with certain weapons than others, but I've seen it happen with most types. PPCs are particularly egregious when it comes to hitting the wrong spot, or failing to register at all. Have also gotten shot in the front and taken damage on the back many times, even while not twisting. It's a pretty well-known and older game "feature".

As to the lights discussion- It's subjective, but both sides have some points. Lights can feel invincible against poor players, because they don't know how to deal with them. Against good players, unless you're as good or better, it's usually suicide. Lasers are actually great against lights when you know how to shoot at lights. If you can't hit a specific component, go for legs. You miss one leg, you hit the other. You know how much leg armor and structure lights have? Not enough to survive a few of those shots when people bother taking them. When you're heavily lag-shielded or vs potato players, being in a light can make you feel like a god. Play against a competent team or even one guy in a Heavy or Assault with good aim, who doesn't panic when he sees a light? You're an easy kill. I've had some of my best and most exciting matches ever in lights, but I've also turned a corner and gotten one-shot a few times, because luck is a thing and I'm not by any means an amazing light pilot.

A lot of it is psychological. For some reason many players in this game see lights and either A.) panic and lose all ability to aim or think straight, or B.) go HAM and squirrel-chase, ignoring bigger, meaner targets shooting them and their team, or C.) ignore the light completely because they feel like it's not worth trying to shoot at, and want the juicier, easier to hit targets. In any of those cases, the light pilot wins and gets to feel like he's invincible because the OPFOR made poor choices. Instead, 1-2 guys with decent aim could lay that light flat in a shot or two if they actually tried.

Edited by Kodyn, 29 March 2020 - 09:06 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

And as for everything else, hitting a tall mech in the "butt" by a much shorter mech, there is the intersection between the front and rear, Have an assault look down and that area is even more accessible. No doubt hit-reg plays its part at times, other times ya hitting the crotch-butt intersection. Same for top-side intersections of the front-back.

[Ignatius Audene]

I love my hppc awesome for this. I consider every match, in which i dont one shot a light with it a bad match

Lights can forgive faults die to higher speed (esp with low skill in qp) but there are so many factors that punish turning the wrong corner or doing a bad poke.

Lbx, mpl, lpl, hpc, streak, bigger acs, gauss and heavy, streak,streak, or just an laser vomit without potato aim (57 alpha)... strikes...