297 replies to this topic

[K O Z A K]

all I ask is for the first week groups should be limited to 4 K9s, so we can pull over players for violating the speed limit while nascaring, and explain to them there is a new sheriff in town and such stupidity will result in policing action

[General Solo]

Merging queues will just kill the game faster.
Skillgap killed FW the first time before Group Queues death resuscitated it, Skillgap killed group Queue
Quick play already has a skill gap due to crappy upward bias matchmaker.

Merging groups , no thank you
Paulezze

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 24 April 2020 - 08:06 AM.

[Larsh]

At this point I would almost just suggest Paul create a new post, and lock it, with a poll that just states:

--Attempt Fix (as stated in post 1)

--Keep as is.

Would at least give us a more definite answer from the player base than letting us bounce around for a week here.

Edited by Larsh, 24 April 2020 - 08:23 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 23 April 2020 - 05:45 PM, said:

You are forgetting the ulterior motive of the doomsayers: they want to stay in their large groups and dominate group queue on the few hours of the week it may still exist, instead of being split up and at the mercy of solo queue. Take what they say cautiously, especially because they know how easy it is to frighten the community with their 'awesome' power.

Regardless, matchmaker being what it is, there are plenty of 12-0 stomps in solo queue already and there are thousands of combinations of ways the potato farm already finds to snatch frustration from the jaws of fun. But there are only a few dozen players like the dreaded forum lording Jarl's queens.

Part of the reason the meta of this game got screw in the first place is because people wet their pants in fear of "a top tier player" handing their *** to them once in a while. Look at what happened to the entirety of clan mechs (let alone engine scaling in general) just because people were worried about try-hards in Kodiaks with quad gauss. It ended up being *less* fun for everyone.

Right now we have the choice to do something that makes this game *more* fun for a change: playing with our friends. Let's not let this chance slip us by out of fear.

Assumptions not supported by facts in evidence. You're attempting to impute motive to top tier players without any evidence. Guys like ASH aren't dropping solo very often. Nor are they dropping group queue (just look at his matches played on Jarl's the last few months - less than 50 games/season in solo/group). In fact, no one is really dropping group queue or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Rather, guys like ASH are dropping in Faction play where they can play with their friends, twitch followers, etc. You can look at stats and parse them as you like, but right now we're seeing about 12k active players per month. And there are about 800 players above 300 avg match score which is almost 50% higher than the avg match score for the population. And 200 players above 350 match score. You'll need to look at the correlation between matches played and score to do a true analysis, but suffice it to say you're likely to have at least 2 300+ MS players each game and only 1 at 350+. The distribution is down to the matchmaker and tonnage and if you're lucky those good players will be on opposite teams, but only by chance since the MM doesn't care if a Tier 1 player is 200 avg MS or 400 avg MS when assigning them.

Now if those good players happen to group up (like attracts like) do you think your odds of not having a stomp are getting better or worse? First of all, groups with good communication are a force multiplier. The better your players in a group, the bigger the multiplier because they're going to focus fire better, position better, etc. If you're only getting 2-3 really good players per match in solo, and now those guys are grouped up and guaranteed to be on the same team, its bad news for the opposition. Back when I used to group drop with a good, but not world class unit, my WLR in group battles dropping a 4-6 man team was 2.5-3:1. If we had dropped against solos, ugh, it would have been really ugly.

It isn't hard for people to start figuring out who carries. And if they see a couple of carry capable guys grouped up on the opposing team, the average joes are going to figure its over already. They get stomped enough and they'll just stop playing because a foregone conclusion isn't fun.

[Larsh]

Anomalocaris, on 24 April 2020 - 12:08 PM, said:

It isn't hard for people to start figuring out who carries. And if they see a couple of carry capable guys grouped up on the opposing team, the average joes are going to figure its over already. They get stomped enough and they'll just stop playing because a foregone conclusion isn't fun.

Can't argue with your above statements. Assuming just makes an a$$ outta you and me. So best not to assume anything on this forum.

But, in my case, I just want to carry on and have a good time, stomp or no stomp. Didn't stop me in the past, won't stop me in the future. At least I can say this will give me a challenge (and goal) to achieve if you guys drop back in Solo / Group.

Edited by Larsh, 24 April 2020 - 12:16 PM.

[Andrzej Lechrenski]

Anomalocaris, on 24 April 2020 - 12:08 PM, said:

Assumptions not supported by facts in evidence. You're attempting to impute motive to top tier players without any evidence. Guys like ASH aren't dropping solo very often. Nor are they dropping group queue (just look at his matches played on Jarl's the last few months - less than 50 games/season in solo/group). In fact, no one is really dropping group queue or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Rather, guys like ASH are dropping in Faction play where they can play with their friends, twitch followers, etc. You can look at stats and parse them as you like, but right now we're seeing about 12k active players per month. And there are about 800 players above 300 avg match score which is almost 50% higher than the avg match score for the population. And 200 players above 350 match score. You'll need to look at the correlation between matches played and score to do a true analysis, but suffice it to say you're likely to have at least 2 300+ MS players each game and only 1 at 350+. The distribution is down to the matchmaker and tonnage and if you're lucky those good players will be on opposite teams, but only by chance since the MM doesn't care if a Tier 1 player is 200 avg MS or 400 avg MS when assigning them.

Now if those good players happen to group up (like attracts like) do you think your odds of not having a stomp are getting better or worse? First of all, groups with good communication are a force multiplier. The better your players in a group, the bigger the multiplier because they're going to focus fire better, position better, etc. If you're only getting 2-3 really good players per match in solo, and now those guys are grouped up and guaranteed to be on the same team, its bad news for the opposition. Back when I used to group drop with a good, but not world class unit, my WLR in group battles dropping a 4-6 man team was 2.5-3:1. If we had dropped against solos, ugh, it would have been really ugly.

It isn't hard for people to start figuring out who carries. And if they see a couple of carry capable guys grouped up on the opposing team, the average joes are going to figure its over already. They get stomped enough and they'll just stop playing because a foregone conclusion isn't fun.

There is no way to protect the potatoes from stomps.

[Larsh]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 24 April 2020 - 01:25 PM, said:

There is no way to protect the potatoes from stomps.

Stomps are gonna stomp. What ever happened to the mindset that you need to come prepared for that, and the stomps were part of a challenge that one needs to overcome?

Stop babying us casuals, and come on Mech Daddies, hit me harder!

[Anomalocaris]

Larsh, on 24 April 2020 - 01:33 PM, said:

Stomps are gonna stomp. What ever happened to the mindset that you need to come prepared for that, and the stomps were part of a challenge that one needs to overcome?

Stop babying us casuals, and come on Mech Daddies, hit me harder!

Kinda missing the point Larsh. And please don't group me with the tryhards. You know me through my other account, I've donated to your channel and I think I even inspired you to run around your yard making airplane sounds.. I'm 99% a solo queue player, no faction, no solaris and no group for over a year, maybe longer.

Anyways, the point being that you don't want players to feel like they don't have a chance when they look at their team roster. You don't want them to build up expectations that when group x drops on the opposite team they're gonna lose every single time. More importantly, you don't want them to feel like they can't do a thing to change it. In 12v12 solo a great player (not me) can swing a lot of matches. But it's hard to do and can be countered. 4 great players, well the solos don't stand much of a chance at all unless, as I pointed out, they get another 1%er group on their side. If solos feel that dropping as a solo means they can't contribute, you've killed solo queue too. If they'd wanted group drops, group queue wouldn't have died in the first place.

[Larsh]

Anomalocaris, on 24 April 2020 - 02:21 PM, said:

Kinda missing the point Larsh. And please don't group me with the tryhards. You know me through my other account, I've donated to your channel and I think I even inspired you to run around your yard making airplane sounds.. I'm 99% a solo queue player, no faction, no solaris and no group for over a year, maybe longer.

Anyways, the point being that you don't want players to feel like they don't have a chance when they look at their team roster. You don't want them to build up expectations that when group x drops on the opposite team they're gonna lose every single time. More importantly, you don't want them to feel like they can't do a thing to change it. In 12v12 solo a great player (not me) can swing a lot of matches. But it's hard to do and can be countered. 4 great players, well the solos don't stand much of a chance at all unless, as I pointed out, they get another 1%er group on their side. If solos feel that dropping as a solo means they can't contribute, you've killed solo queue too. If they'd wanted group drops, group queue wouldn't have died in the first place.

Ah no worries there mate. That last comment was about 78.78563672765% satire. Cause, math is important there kids. My mathematician is still getting back on the true number on that statement, and maybe we'll find out later. I'm just here to spice up this mundane comment section here and there to lighten the mood before heads get chopped off.

If this "fix" does go live we'll need to test it out before we can give a final verdict. In a perfect world we would all be fine gentlemen and ladies and take the win and losing with good sportsmanship. I think we can all don our top hats and twirl our mustaches to that.

If we can agree to be good sports, not gripe on about pug stomping, try to use Voip, and keep the in-game sodium levels down I think we may get though this.

Granted, all my statements are easier said than done. That I will not dispute.

[justcallme A S H]

PotatoCrunch, on 24 April 2020 - 04:51 AM, said:

I almost hate to say this because this will come off as a bit rude, I think that if the top players truly, genuinely wanted to grow the game, they wouldn’t go to form pug stomping groups with the (from what I interpret) sole intention to stomp as many people as possible, I can’t tell if you guys are joking. Of course, even I think that’s probably unreasonable for the top players: if you wanted to win, you’d play with the best. And top players are at the top for a reason.

It's not so much rude, more lack of understanding the point.

Top players aren't going to deliberately form groups to stomp. Them simply playing the game, with their friends, like anyone else. That will essentially just happen on its own. I'd be surprised if a number of higher skill players, if they could group up together, came back now and again to play which would increase the likelihood of rough matches for the opposition.

When I can look now at a SoloQ and player names before a game starts and predict with reasonable certainty the outcome. What's gonna happen when there is 2-3 more of them, and they are organised?

The fact many high skill players have come out and openly said they do NOT want to ruin the casual player experience as it is overall bad for the game needs to be heeded. No one is joking. Everyone is very serious about it. Getting this wrong could very well be the last thing MWO/PGI has because if it leads to casual player exodus... There won't be anyone left after that.

[justcallme A S H]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 23 April 2020 - 05:45 PM, said:

You are forgetting the ulterior motive of the doomsayers: they want to stay in their large groups and dominate group queue on the few hours of the week it may still exist, instead of being split up and at the mercy of solo queue. Take what they say cautiously, especially because they know how easy it is to frighten the community with their 'awesome' power.
.

Actually. "WE" don't. That's a total lack of understanding of the points being made.

"WE" don't care what group size is. We don't NEED 12 to stomp. If the max is 4, the number is 4. It makes no difference.

"WE" are not here to frighten. We are here to put forward a viewpoint and the very real/potentially bad outcome for this on the casual player base. There is no ulterior motives at all. The only motive here is to not lose anymore players. There have been enough bad decisions and implementations causing HUGE player exodus. I don't think any player wants to see another instance of it

[justcallme A S H]

Anomalocaris, on 24 April 2020 - 12:08 PM, said:

Spoiler

Assumptions not supported by facts in evidence. You're attempting to impute motive to top tier players without any evidence. Guys like ASH aren't dropping solo very often. Nor are they dropping group queue (just look at his matches played on Jarl's the last few months - less than 50 games/season in solo/group). In fact, no one is really dropping group queue or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Rather, guys like ASH are dropping in Faction play where they can play with their friends, twitch followers, etc. You can look at stats and parse them as you like, but right now we're seeing about 12k active players per month. And there are about 800 players above 300 avg match score which is almost 50% higher than the avg match score for the population. And 200 players above 350 match score. You'll need to look at the correlation between matches played and score to do a true analysis, but suffice it to say you're likely to have at least 2 300+ MS players each game and only 1 at 350+. The distribution is down to the matchmaker and tonnage and if you're lucky those good players will be on opposite teams, but only by chance since the MM doesn't care if a Tier 1 player is 200 avg MS or 400 avg MS when assigning them.

Now if those good players happen to group up (like attracts like) do you think your odds of not having a stomp are getting better or worse? First of all, groups with good communication are a force multiplier. The better your players in a group, the bigger the multiplier because they're going to focus fire better, position better, etc. If you're only getting 2-3 really good players per match in solo, and now those guys are grouped up and guaranteed to be on the same team, its bad news for the opposition. Back when I used to group drop with a good, but not world class unit, my WLR in group battles dropping a 4-6 man team was 2.5-3:1. If we had dropped against solos, ugh, it would have been really ugly.

It isn't hard for people to start figuring out who carries. And if they see a couple of carry capable guys grouped up on the opposing team, the average joes are going to figure its over already. They get stomped enough and they'll just stop playing because a foregone conclusion isn't fun.

If anyone is confused about where the higher skill players are coming from and why they are worried if the impact - this post hits the nail firmly on the head.

A standing ovation to your sir. You once again 'get it's.

[Andrzej Lechrenski]

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2020 - 04:21 PM, said:

It's not so much rude, more lack of understanding the point.

Top players aren't going to deliberately form groups to stomp. Them simply playing the game, with their friends, like anyone else. That will essentially just happen on its own. I'd be surprised if a number of higher skill players, if they could group up together, came back now and again to play which would increase the likelihood of rough matches for the opposition.

When I can look now at a SoloQ and player names before a game starts and predict with reasonable certainty the outcome. What's gonna happen when there is 2-3 more of them, and they are organised?

The fact many high skill players have come out and openly said they do NOT want to ruin the casual player experience as it is overall bad for the game needs to be heeded. No one is joking. Everyone is very serious about it. Getting this wrong could very well be the last thing MWO/PGI has because if it leads to casual player exodus... There won't be anyone left after that.

We are well past Exodus here. The last few months, perhaps even years, have been more like Job.

Regardless, what PGI decides IS going to be the last thing MWO gets 'wrong'. I'd rather get to spend my last few months in these End Times playing with my friends (which is the only reason I play this game in the first place) than suffer through yet another well-intentioned attempt at over-balancing to save the potatoes, who aren't even going to be helped by it anyway. As you have pointed out yourself, and as nobody has argued against, one can already predict the outcome of a match by looking at the names. The question is: do we want to at least give people the opportunity to have fun in these last days, or do we want to keep it just as miserable as it already is before this whole thing goes to hell?

Edited by Andrzej Lechrenski, 24 April 2020 - 06:11 PM.

[Larsh]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 24 April 2020 - 06:06 PM, said:

We are well past Exodus here. The last few months, perhaps even years, have been more like Job.

Regardless, what PGI decides IS going to be the last thing MWO gets 'wrong'. I'd rather get to spend my last few months in these End Times playing with my friends (which is the only reason I play this game in the first place) than suffer through yet another well-intentioned attempt at over-balancing to save the potatoes, who aren't even going to be helped by it anyway. As you have pointed out yourself, and as nobody has argued against, one can already predict the outcome of a match by looking at the names. The question is: do we want to at least give people the opportunity to have fun in these last days, or do we want to keep it just as miserable as it already is before this whole thing goes to hell?

And this is what I've been saying for the past few pages.

I'm really not too sure if the elite players read my posts, or not. But, as someone who plays casually, we don't care if people think we're going to be discouraged by the likelihood of "stomps"

We stay to play with friends, not as much as logging in for a win or lose match up.

For the sake of doing so, I'll copy and paste what I said back on the last page.
---------------------------------------------------
In the game's current position, myself and other casuals already get stomped from time to time. Changing the way groups are formed really isn't going to change that for us. But, as a casual player, we go in ahead of time with that mindset. We are already mentally prepared for a stomp. It's when we do come out with a win against the odds where we feel some excitement.
Sometimes the fun of the game isn't getting that win either. It's the comradery of playing as a group, and having fun either way.

This is the basis that I posted about placing aside the idea of stomps a few pages back, and we need to focus on the game mechanics instead so group queue can live again. For those naysayers that are saying that stomps will happen, you need to realize that stomps already exist. For some of the casuals that you think are going to get upset, we don't mind as we are always prepared already. We just want play with our mates again.


---------------------------------------------------

Edited by Larsh, 24 April 2020 - 08:58 PM.

[Anomalocaris]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 24 April 2020 - 06:06 PM, said:

The question is: do we want to at least give people the opportunity to have fun in these last days, or do we want to keep it just as miserable as it already is before this whole thing goes to hell?

Don't make the assumption that what is miserable for you is miserable for all. I'm a solo player. Group play can be fun, but I don't have the time to devote to maintaining regular group play/contacts. I tend to play a few games a day when I have a few extra minutes. It's.....random.

Anyways, when I queue into a solo queue game and I see a good player on the opposite team, say, MW2 Annihilator (I regularly seem to drop around the same time he does), I know I have to put on my man pants and stay extra focused if I want a shot at winning (assuming my team is of similar skill to the opposition). And I like winning, that's fun. I will lose more than I win in equal settings vs. MW2, but I have a shot and I can work on getting better.

Now if I drop in but instead of just MW2 on the opposing team I see him, Brauer and Jon McFuzzy group dropping while on my team I've got a group of guys from any mid-tier unit that I don't recognize, odds are I'm not gonna win. Even if I score 1000 dmg and 700 match score those guys are probably gonna carry. That's miserable for me. And it's not random. Those guys will keep dropping together and keep winning and if I get matched against them I'm screwed. The only solution for me is to either find myself a group of equally good players to drop with or log off and try again a different time. Since I'm not a group player and I'm not interested in no win situations, I'm just gonna log off. That makes me unhappy.

You think that there are more people who feel like you and Larsh dropping solo queue right now. Maybe you're right. But I think that there are a lot of people that drop solo because that's what fits their play style, time availability, etc. And say what you will, but people tend to have more fun when they're winning, or at least having close matches. And the fact that solo queue is chugging along while group queue is dead should at least make you consider I might be right. And if I am, mixing groups into solo will make them miserable (or, at least, more miserable .

[Andrzej Lechrenski]

Anomalocaris, on 24 April 2020 - 11:38 PM, said:

Don't make the assumption that what is miserable for you is miserable for all. I'm a solo player. Group play can be fun, but I don't have the time to devote to maintaining regular group play/contacts. I tend to play a few games a day when I have a few extra minutes. It's.....random.

Anyways, when I queue into a solo queue game and I see a good player on the opposite team, say, MW2 Annihilator (I regularly seem to drop around the same time he does), I know I have to put on my man pants and stay extra focused if I want a shot at winning (assuming my team is of similar skill to the opposition). And I like winning, that's fun. I will lose more than I win in equal settings vs. MW2, but I have a shot and I can work on getting better.

Now if I drop in but instead of just MW2 on the opposing team I see him, Brauer and Jon McFuzzy group dropping while on my team I've got a group of guys from any mid-tier unit that I don't recognize, odds are I'm not gonna win. Even if I score 1000 dmg and 700 match score those guys are probably gonna carry. That's miserable for me. And it's not random. Those guys will keep dropping together and keep winning and if I get matched against them I'm screwed. The only solution for me is to either find myself a group of equally good players to drop with or log off and try again a different time. Since I'm not a group player and I'm not interested in no win situations, I'm just gonna log off. That makes me unhappy.

You think that there are more people who feel like you and Larsh dropping solo queue right now. Maybe you're right. But I think that there are a lot of people that drop solo because that's what fits their play style, time availability, etc. And say what you will, but people tend to have more fun when they're winning, or at least having close matches. And the fact that solo queue is chugging along while group queue is dead should at least make you consider I might be right. And if I am, mixing groups into solo will make them miserable (or, at least, more miserable .

If PGI had paid attention when ComstarNA on Teamspeak was going down, or even bothered to invest ten whole minutes into resources for a community meet-and-greet hub on Discord, group queue would be fine. "Stomps" had less to do with it than the panty-bunchers would have you think. (If you don't know what I'm talking about with Comstar, that's because group queue players don't whine as much as solo queue, and we never have. Until now.) It's not the potatoes who left the game when things got bad: it's the people who expect teamwork from a 12v12 team game.

Yes, some players are better than others. That is the way of things. Nobody is arguing against it. But I say again: there are already stomps in solo queue. Saying that merging small groups in to it will cause stomps is totally moot. One could only WISH for a time when there were enough teams of good players that those teams needed to be divided out into their own queue. That time is not now.

[lolbbq]

PGI, you know 75% of game enjoyment issues by the player base would be solved right away if match making actually represented player skill. Considering the player base size now, the other 20% of game enjoyment would be solved by having flexible match sizes.

You would solve almost all complaints from the top 99.9th percentile player to the bottom 0.01% player if you match made properly.

You already track average match score. Just bin player brackets according to a 3-4 month moving average and be done with it. This can apply regardless whatever you choose to do with GQ or SQ.

If you want to improve wait times, cap queue times according to 1.5X average wait time for the timezone and drop the largest game possible for all players in queue with equal numbers of both sides AND sorted by the matchmaker suggested above.

Including GQ in this distribution a bit more complicated but if you apply the same principal of matchmaking by cumulative group skill (drop tonnage and/or increase matchmaking weight) and dropping the largest balanced game size after a certain time or as soon as a certain number is reached (reducing this target game size as time goes by).

The last paragraph above is just a small thing though. Do whatever you want to GQ and SQ, but if you actually matchmade. properly and have flexible player numbers each game, you would have improved the game by LEAPS AND BOUNDS.

[justcallme A S H]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 25 April 2020 - 01:27 AM, said:

It's not the potatoes who left the game when things got bad: it's the people who expect teamwork from a 12v12 team game.

I would absolutely love to see what evidence to have to back up that totally outlandish claim. I mean I know you're gonna have absolutely nothing to substantiate it - but it's gonna be a great laugh to see what you come up with at least.

From the names I used to see regularly to the names I see now - low skill or high skill - all skill levels have left when things were bad. Bad changes, poor development, bad match qualify. No one is safe. To assume it make a statement that it's only players that expected Teamworks in SoloQ that have quit the game is absolutely laughable, oh, and grossly incorrect.

[Larsh]

justcallme A S H, on 25 April 2020 - 05:43 AM, said:

I would absolutely love to see what evidence to have to back up that totally outlandish claim. I mean I know you're gonna have absolutely nothing to substantiate it - but it's gonna be a great laugh to see what you come up with at least.

The issue here is that there really isn't any evidence to back up said claims.

This can also be said for any other claims that people have posted here due to personal insight and opinion. That goes for you, me, and anyone who has mentioned that stomps will happen, to the other side that states that stomps already happen.

The issue with this thread is that we bounce on this topic back and forth on the pettiness and not what Paul is suggesting as a possible fix that can be tested.

That's why I have stated in the past that we need to set aside our grudges, and assumptions of each other, and just let the devs try one final shot.

NO ONE in this thread, besides Paul, works for PGI. We cannot back up any of our personal facts to the other side without each side hitting each other against the head.

One other point I would like to mention, is that Paul has left this thread open for suggestion from the playerbase. On one side, that is fantastic, lets get some ideas flowing.

The flip side to Paul's idea is that not all the playerbase congregates here. Many people AVOID coming to the forums due to the stigma that nothing gets achieved here. So far, I've only noticed the same handful of people bounce back and forth with differing opinions on what can be achieved as an end goal.

Personally, I would rather have Paul close down this thread, and open a poll. That way it would be up to vote with two options.

- test and fix
- or leave as is

This would leave out personal judgement, and would only take about 2 min of any one person that would want to come here.

TLDR: Set aside personal judgments and claims, unless you came packing with receipts. Paul, open a poll. Will make your whole decision process easier to decipher instead of reading through 10 pages of comments.

[Sniper09121986]

lolbbq, on 25 April 2020 - 02:58 AM, said:

You already track average match score. Just bin player brackets according to a 3-4 month moving average and be done with it. This can apply regardless whatever you choose to do with GQ or SQ.

If you want to improve wait times, cap queue times according to 1.5X average wait time for the timezone and drop the largest game possible for all players in queue with equal numbers of both sides AND sorted by the matchmaker suggested above.

Including GQ in this distribution a bit more complicated but if you apply the same principal of matchmaking by cumulative group skill (drop tonnage and/or increase matchmaking weight) and dropping the largest balanced game size after a certain time or as soon as a certain number is reached (reducing this target game size as time goes by).

Match score is one thing, but there is more to it. There have been events once or twice (in particular Night Gyr leaderboard IIRC) that used to track individual event progress via a complex formula similar to the one used by the Jarl's List that also included W/L, K/D and whatnot. That could be used to calculate individual stats. Also see how another team-based game handles player rankings: https://gaming-tools...rike/cs-go-elo/