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Group Queue Update 2020


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#21 cleghorn6

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 10:51 PM

I understand the reasoning but it's a shame, I was just working my way back to this game but getting continually skull [Redacted] by groups on SoloQ is not at all fun. I was playing before GroupQ was a thing, and that's what happened. Even reasonable matches were the exception rather than the rule. It was the only time I've seriously considered giving the game away entirely.

Clearly I'm no comp level hero but when my contribution to the team nine times out of ten is getting ganked 2 minutes in by a 4-man running a flank, that gets old pretty quickly. So I guess this is thanks for 8 years and I'll see you all in 20 years for the next Battletech revival.

#22 D U N E

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 10:53 PM

Well RIP MWO. If there isn't a basic MM to make sure each side has at least 1 group, this maybe the killer of the game. Like now tha ability to 3 man lrm with a narcer consistently has just been made available for group solo que.

You guys better try and give out more information on meta mechs, cause bad players are about to get a wakeup call.

#23 hazeman

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 11:01 PM

i think in the end people just want to be able to play with friends. so having a 4 man group + solo queues is better than nothing.

Just ensure that both teams at least have a 4 man group to balance things out.

8man groups are nice to have, but i dont think people are willing to wait 7 mins just for a sub 10min match.

#24 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 11:05 PM

Actually, I have mixed feelings about this. I'd love the ability to drop in Group Quickplay again, but I also see the danger of exploitation. While I've not been here when groups in Solo QP was a thing for the first time, I can imagine how it went.
Therefore, I think the exploit potential has to be minimized.
Paul already mentioned the equal distribution of the groups, but I think this should go a bit further. Maybe groups should be considered as 1 tier above their highest member, or even just be always considered tier 1. This could prevent the worst baby seal clubbing, as more experienced players should(!) know what they are up to. Also it should be absolutely obvious who is grouped in a match.
Just my thoughts. But hey, the greatest knews is that you guys havve it on the table!

#25 Ryan Grey

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 11:33 PM

play time around 12000 hours.

Let me get something straight.

You only want to prevent having x+ group premade drops in quick play, correct ?
Ok, i could live with that.

----------------

In FPlay that would destroy the whole sense of FACTION playing tough.

A BIG and total NO NO would be to reduce the total group size from 12 to 8 man
in ANY match type.

Sorry but i won´t be playing a game that only wants top please the competitive [redacted] who cause waiting times of 5min + onto them self because they only
included ONE server in match making.

I have NEVER had to wait even 5 minutes
.
Of course there is always a problem finding matches because of time zones, but that doesn´t count.


I always dreamt of Piranah upping the the group size in qplay and fplay to a more modern
standard.
I don´t expect 100+ player matches like PUBG or its kind,
but a 24 vs 24 should be possible, right !?

And a SOLARIS 24+ FFA arena stomp.
Those would fix some major issues with the game.

Edited by GM Patience, 21 April 2020 - 08:03 AM.


#26 Mokou

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 11:39 PM

Oh wow... now i can play with friends again?
In QP... without waiting for one eternity?

Edited by Mokou, 20 April 2020 - 11:42 PM.


#27 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 12:15 AM

View PostMokou, on 20 April 2020 - 11:39 PM, said:

Oh wow... now i can play with friends again?
In QP... without waiting for one eternity?

Yes. You just sit on voip count 321 and get into queue.

#28 MisterSomaru

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 12:29 AM

guess it's time to farm the people asking for this for years to remind them how wrong they are once again.
As usual.

#29 D U N E

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 12:39 AM

View PostRyan Grey, on 20 April 2020 - 11:33 PM, said:

play time around 12000 hours.

Let me get something straight.

You only want to prevent having x+ group premade drops in quick play, correct ?
Ok, i could live with that.

----------------

In FPlay that would destroy the whole sense of FACTION playing tough.

A BIG and total NO NO would be to reduce the total group size from 12 to 8 man
in ANY match type.

Sorry but i won´t be playing a game that only wants top please the competitive [redacted] who cause waiting times of 5min + onto them self because they only
included ONE server in match making.

I have NEVER had to wait even 5 minutes
.
Of course there is always a problem finding matches because of time zones, but that doesn´t count.


I always dreamt of Piranah upping the the group size in qplay and fplay to a more modern
standard.
I don´t expect 100+ player matches like PUBG or its kind,
but a 24 vs 24 should be possible, right !?

And a SOLARIS 24+ FFA arena stomp.
Those would fix some major issues with the game.


We need a 24v24 mode when the game already has bad performance, we barely have a consistent playerbase, and [redacted] people that get bad ping on just their own local servers should be forced to play outside their home region - cause the only reason that dont want more servers must be racism and not the fact that many people still have horrendous internet providers.

Until PGI offer a method of being able to drop with a fluid number of players, increasing group size is going to be the death of the game.

As for 4 player comp stomps in solo play, they better have a basic match maker that can notice a 4 man of JGx and a 4 man of EMP should not be on the same side in an average match. Or we could witness the death of MWO right here.

#30 Jay Z

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 01:02 AM

Firstly, thank you for looking into the queue structure!!! The 8v8 Group Queue test on the weekend was some of the most fun I have had in quick play in ages.

As I have discussed at Mechcons and in previous threads and streams, this is my recommendation for the two current Quick Play queues:

-------------------------------

Option A:

Solo: Solo players only - 8v8
Group: Groups of 1-4 - 8v8

This would mean that players who wish to have a solo experience can continue to do so without groups. It also means that groups can play together and solo players can fill in the "group Tetris". If more than 5 players wish to group together, Faction Play still has 12v12 and no group limit.

A bonus to this is that if Solo players could opt into both "buckets" their search time would be decreased and Group Queue could pick up these players to fill in the Tetris as required, giving the MM an easier time to fill in matches.

--------------------------------

Option B:

Solo: Solo players only - 8v8
Group: Groups of 1-8 - 8v8

As above but with no group limit. Allowing solo players to opt in to group still assists group queue Tetris. This is a rather small change from the current system (12 -> 8 and soloes in both).

--------------------------------

Regarding 8v8, it is far more enjoyable and suits the MWO combat loop very well as tried and tested in comp. With less players, TTK is increased and the skill disparity is reduced which makes for more enjoyable matches. For the 12v12 experience, Faction Play is still available with respawns which makes up for the shorter TTK in that mode.

While I respect the idea of solo+group in 12v12 as a single queue, I do not see how this caters to the portion of players that enjoy a solo environment (even I like to kick back in solo queue myself from time to time). I am more than happy to discuss further. Cheers,

#31 Ratybor

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 01:02 AM

Good news. Can't wait for that "groups of 4 in QP" to go live, gotta tell my friend to oil his mechs.

#32 Kamikaze Viking

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 01:03 AM

I'll just save myself time and repost what i said 6 days ago on /r/outreachHPG.

Quote

Let me tell you a story about the old times before the separated solo and group queues. The classic example was a well known group of 3 who would all run long range assaults and they all had great aim (from the old times but a well known top unit called JGx). When everyone else in the match was solos, they were unstoppable. Even a smattering of small groups and solo's mixed still would be decimated by these 3.

I and many of the experienced players here have discussed this exhaustively and it doesn't matter because PGI is resistant to implement any community suggestions. But If they would. The only acceptable one in my mind is to add Max 1 solo per team to group queue, but never groups to solo. implemented via a check box labelled "Solo Opt in to fill group queue". This would allow the group q matchmaker a wildcard to solve the jigsaw puzzle of group sizes, and solos would only be picked IF the group queue had an unsolvable jigsaw. and only 1 per team MAX (we mathed this out and one is all it needs to shuffle groups of various sizes back and forth and solve the puzzle)


But you have pre-empted me with:

View PostPaul Inouye, on 20 April 2020 - 03:06 PM, said:


Many people over the years have suggested the inclusion to allow solo players to opt-in to the group queue. This is not something we feel worth pursuing as the data shows that wouldn’t make a significant impact on the speed of match making and it also requires we make an assumption on player behavior to opt-in to group queue and for that player behavior to be consistent long term. If players were to stop opting-in, we'd be back at square one.


I loved the 8v8 live test, and would love to see if solo opt in could be live tested.
I think it would have a non-insignificant impact once people are aware of it (this is important else no one will opt in. best would be to advertise the test and leave it in place for a few weeks) and please correct me if im wrong but I cannot see a situation that it would cause problems. So please please at least let us test this (you can always revert the change)

BUT

If you were to fix PSR's upward bias and/or do a seasonal reset (eg 3 or 6 monthly), then maybe letting groups into solo queue would be less bad. Although i would agree with others here that MAX 1 Group per team in solo queue.

#FixPSR

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 21 April 2020 - 01:04 AM.


#33 Jay Z

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 01:18 AM

On the note of player behaviour not wanting to opt in, I do not see the negative to opting in. If needed, give c-bill/XP incentives. Essentially, this gives MM a pool of players to fill in the gaps which means 3 and 5 person groups can instantly be treated as 4 and 6 person groups with just a single solo player. It is likely that group queue matches will only have 0 or 1 solo players per side which means the stable number of people needing to opt in is quite low. I am seriously talking about 1-2 opted in solo pilots online per concurrent match. And remember, these pilots can still be put in solo by MM! It is likely that even with opting in, the MM may only need that solo player in group a handful of times in a play session. Again, I see no meaningful negative to this,

I have watched the searching wheel for longer than most (Aussie playing since 2012, ~20k hours) which has given me plenty of time to consider the above.

#34 Mokou

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 01:30 AM

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 21 April 2020 - 12:15 AM, said:

Yes. You just sit on voip count 321 and get into queue.


Very funny! Try this with tier5 friends.

#35 dario03

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 01:32 AM

View PostD U N E, on 21 April 2020 - 12:39 AM, said:


As for 4 player comp stomps in solo play, they better have a basic match maker that can notice a 4 man of JGx and a 4 man of EMP should not be on the same side in an average match. Or we could witness the death of MWO right here.


Back in the day when we had this 4man limit group solo mix it was usually pretty good about that. But I think we were still on elo and there were a lot more people playing. Basically it wasn't uncommon to get 4 div a comp teams in the same match over and over (at least around NA prime time). Usually it would put 2 on each side but it would mix up the groupings and games would often times be really close unless the other 4 players were really mismatched or rushed in alone. However sometimes it would put 3 on one side and 1 on the other with what would look like 8 solo new players. When that happened the team that got left out would just go well I guess its our turn to lose, and then they would lose...

Edited by dario03, 21 April 2020 - 01:34 AM.


#36 Talorion

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 01:51 AM

I think PGI should make the game interesting again. New things to buy. I would even pay a (voluntary) subscription in which you get something offered every month. The events also have to get better. Bigger battles in FP, like a few years ago. Then maybe new players will come. And that could also shorten waiting times, if I'm not mistaken.
MWO is my hobby and I would and have already spent a lot of money, but at the moment there is nothing new to buy ... unfortunately. And earning money is the goal of PGI, right?
Of course it's just my opinion. And I apologize if I missed the topic here a little.

#37 justcallme A S H

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 01:54 AM

Ok so I've read the entire post now... Well... I am actually a bit shocked at some of it.

Here is what we know now (in no particular order).
  • 2-man of good players is enough to dominate in GroupQ (12v12) when organised.
  • 4-man groups dominated GroupQ for years (12v12) when organised
  • The majority of MWO players that are left are Solo Q droppers - the super casuals. They log in. Play some - win some - lose some - log out.
  • PSR does not reflect a players skill. Many low skill players have made it into Tier 1 & 2 when they should never have left Tier 4 & 5.
If you combine the GroupQ and allow groups into SoloQ it will end in nothing but excessive stomps for those casual players who have climbed PSR ranks to Tiers where they don't belong.

What is the end result of these super casuals being stomped senseless? They will quit. Not right away, but after a few weeks/month of it - it'll happen. No one is going to find enjoyment when you win 1 match and lose 10 every time you log in.

So there are 3 options here as I see it.


OPTION 1 - Allow Groups into SoloQ.
(refer above to the end result I would expect).


OPTION 2 - Make GroupQ 8v8.
  • Group sizes of 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 only. No odd numbers. Or just limit it to 4 max.
  • Allow Solo players to OPT-IN for GroupQ. Have a little check box the same as the server options. Casual/SoloQ players are not impacted. More serious players can take on a potential harder challenge. Win-Win.

OPTION 3 - MWO becomes 8v8 for SoloQ and GroupQ.
  • All the things in #2
  • Adjust match payouts/experience etc.

View PostPaul Inouye, on 20 April 2020 - 03:06 PM, said:

MechWarrior Online really has not had the population in the group queue to justify its separate queue status for quite some time. Many popular games have never had the separation of group and solo players


What popular games do this with actual success though? A couple come to mind and they don't work at all.

One game I play has a Merged Queue (Warcraft 3). It is nothing short of an absolute dumpster fire for enjoyment/quality of games. If I drop solo I get stomped by groups. If I drop in a group I can go 5hrs without a single loss. It does not work.


Also are you basing that statement off GroupQ being 12v12 currently on or 8v8+OPT-In? If you look at it individually I would agree it would not stack up but combined it might.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 April 2020 - 02:08 AM.


#38 -Verti-

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 02:10 AM

Hey PGI, instead of implementing this change, why not address some actual issues with your product instead?

For example,
Revert the change that dumps side torso heat into your mech upon component destruction. Not only is it completely nonsensical from a thermodynamics point of view, it's no fun either.
Properly address the agility of 'mechs post engine de-sync. I would like my Atlas to actually be able to torso twist and spread damage.
Fix the scaling of 'mechs. Why is my 35T JR7-IIC the same size as my 65T Catapult?
Put some time into finding out why the Heat Bug is *still* happening.

Some effort into actually improving your product would do more to help its population numbers than this seemingly arbitrary solution you currently have.

Edited by -Verti-, 21 April 2020 - 02:18 AM.


#39 technopredator

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 02:10 AM

This game used to have 4-people groups only, this is the same failed philosophy back in 2014-15 or so, that failed miserably, there was no FP only QP, and we used TeamSpeak and was coordinated with this game and Enjin website somehow, and the comments in my Unit at the time was all negative, then the arbitrary group number came, to improve the matchmaker available teams to match and created a 12vs12 match, worked great, accelerated matchmaking to seconds, from many minutes before, now the same potato heads running this game, and obviously not playing it, want to go back to 4-people teams, that is back to square one for sure.

I stopped playing because this game has some very complicated mechanisms that are only favorable to PGI for the MC you need to buy, and for the free player sucks and discourage to ever buy MC for anything, that's why most if not all my previous Unit members quit playing and probably will never come, I did too, I came back to see any improvements and really nothing has been done to the many problems in this game, and for the words of the GM, nothing will, ever. So I'm pretty much done with this game as my main game, I'll come back to shot people with a robot, I don't care of any of it anymore, since the devs don't have a clue how to listen to this community or care for a better gameplay.

Someone wrote me in-game that there was a very serious problem with Units and factions a few years back, big scam/hack and all Units got destroyed and disbanded by PGI and Enjin, all the game went to hell pretty much and PGI still doesn't learn the lesson: this game is dying because you don't change to improve this game, you want the same mediocre at best, game mechanic to be in place and just change it enough, to make the game "perfect", the reason of their stubborn: "everything is fine, we don't need to change nothing really, just a few group numbers" old argument, and after so many years I read the same foolish words phrased differently.

So PGI instead of improving the social interaction in-game, to have Units better controlled, so it doesn't become a problem, and allow this game to make sense, with FP, no needing matches just dropping players on regions for improvised game objectives like Planetside 2, just planetary zones, until a planet is conquered and to follow the storyline of the original game storyline and games, as it was once planed; no need for QP anymore, this game would be more enjoyable, having fortresses and cities to defend and conquer, supervise evacuations of civilians, lots of missions, not just the same repetitive ones we have today, the game would always be endless and randomic, always fun for the time we play it and fun to come back to.

Social interaction is what makes anything better, specially online games; so Units/Guilds or whatever they're called in any Massive Multiplayer Online Game (MMOG) have, to help each other selling trading, warring, etc. Social interaction sucks pretty much in this game, an immediate easy improvement would be to make groups that are valid for QP and and FP, not different groups for each.

IMO: Comp and Solaris 7 modes, are failures, and should be removed and whatever resources put into FP and QP, at least until FP absorbs QP. Those 2 game modes divide the player base even more, making more difficult to make groups that play the same mode, this should be obvious for intelligent people.

Tonnage shouldn't exist for FP just the 'mechs dropping, and repair stations for the damage, with time and C-Bill penalties to pay the repairs, in a few minutes; so wither you take another 'mech to battle, or wait for your 'mech, dynamic, fast and fun.

This game should have a general chat for all players to meet to have conversations in writing and spoken, when not in-game. Also a trading market. instead the C-Bills going to the server, goes to the ones that actually car for the items, the players. Units should be restored, group of friends dropping and yes some arbitrary number matchmaking with other Units, fun times, friendship forming and helps players as players and persons emotionally, great for the game, many people will come back and will be popular, and not just casual, if at all.

Edited by technopredator, 21 April 2020 - 02:24 AM.


#40 technopredator

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 02:28 AM

View Post-Verti-, on 21 April 2020 - 02:10 AM, said:

Hey PGI, instead of implementing this change, why not address some actual issues with your product instead?

For example,
Revert the change that dumps side torso heat into your mech upon component destruction. Not only is it completely nonsensical from a thermodynamics point of view, it's no fun either.
Properly address the agility of 'mechs post engine de-sync. I would like my Atlas to actually be able to torso twist and spread damage.
Fix the scaling of 'mechs. Why is my 35T JR7-IIC the same size as my 65T Catapult?
Put some time into finding out why the Heat Bug is *still* happening.

Some effort into actually improving your product would do more to help its population numbers than this seemingly arbitrary solution you currently have.


I agree, Why are the Stalker and the Catapult so small and a C-Medium StormCrow so tall? makes no sense.
The Ghost heat of firing the same type of weapon simultaneously is stupidly high, makes no sense neither.





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